How do we know what Jesus said when no one was there, anyway?

[ruby sparks]

Again? Really?

Yes, really.

Keep digging though. It's fun to watch.

 

[Lion IRC]

God actually forbids us from doing that which might lead to perdition.
He does not 'allow' it.

Now, how would we judge a ruler who intervened to prevent justice whenever it affected his family? Suppose the son of a dictator murdered someone and that victim was the child of parents who equally loved their child and wanted justice. What would we say if the dictator used the love of his own son as a reason NOT to punish him?

Personallly, I would not worship a god who didn't punish sin or who treated unrepentant murderers the same as their victims. Note - this is what is implied according to the atheistic view that there is no inescapable afterlife justice. According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.

 

[WAB]

God actually forbids us from doing that which might lead to perdition.
He does not 'allow' it.

Now, how would we judge a ruler who intervened to prevent justice whenever it affected his family? Suppose the son of a dictator murdered someone and that victim was the child of parents who equally loved their child and wanted justice. What would we say if the dictator used the love of his own son as a reason NOT to punish him?

Personallly, I would not worship a god who didn't punish sin or who treated unrepentant murderers the same as their victims. Note - this is what is implied according to the atheistic view that there is no inescapable afterlife justice. According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.

I have no problem with punishment, so to speak, but let the punishment fit the crime.

Do you think Servetus deserved to die at the stake, in agony, and then get to spend E-fucking-Ternity in an actual, Dantean Hell, because of what he was able to believe or not believe?

Answer the question in honesty, please.

Would Joseph Mengele get to go to Heaven, if he only believed that Jesus Christ had died for his sins?

Answer the question in honesty, and with courage, and with integrity.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.

Yes, that's true. There's no divine balance, judgement or anything like that. If someone finds a way to get away with something, no matter how horrible, he just gets away with it.

It would be nice to have some kind of fairy tale ending where the good guys get the rewards they deserve and the bad guys get the punishment that's coming to them, but fairy tales are for children. All we can do is try to do the best that we can with the tools that we have.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It would be nice to have some kind of fairy tale ending

I don't know about 'nice.' For some people, it's absolutely necessary.

The child steals a cookie and knocks the cookie jar onto the floor.
When Mom walks in, the child is guilty, but DESPERATELY wants to avoid punishment.
His mind figures, if someone else DID this, THEY would be in trouble, not me. So it invents an alternate view of events that preserve the child's innocence.
"Ninjas!"
Thing is, he's not lying. After his brain does the cost/benefit/paddling analysis, THIS is the version of reality in which he isn't punished, so THIS is the new truth.

Grownups cannot deal with people like Hitler escaping punishment, while his victims cannot acquire justice. So, they are attracted to, or even concoct, an alternative story where justice prevails and endings are happy and all dogs go to Heaven.

 

[Learner]

Hmmm.

Looks like the Greek borrowed from Enoch or Enoch from the Greek.

4 On the first uppermost circle I placed the stars, Kruno, and on the second Aphrodit, on the third Aris, on the fifth Zeus, on the sixth Ermis, on the seventh lesser the moon, and adorned it with the lesser stars.

Kronos, Aphrodite, Ares, Zeus, Hermes, etc.

*

Okay, looks like the Greek predates the Enoch texts. Sorry guys, I know most of you know this stuff, but I never gave the apocryphal books much of a look until...now.

Proceed!

Yes it may seem it, taking from the "2 Enoch" a later text than the much older (usually the accepted) "1 Enoch" which is the version in the Ethiopian bible.

Even if it was written in Greek (3 Enoch written in Hebrew) Kronos, Aphrodite, Ares, Zeus, Hermes, as you've highlighted above undoubtedly may cause some confusing pov's being that these were known as Greek gods. However, since the emphasis is on the heavens i.e. stars. The context is different,comparing to the modern names (Roman origin) for the planets:

Ermis = Mercury
Aphrodit = Venus
Aris = Mars
Zeus = Jupiter
Kruno = Saturn

 

[WAB]

Hmmm.

Looks like the Greek borrowed from Enoch or Enoch from the Greek.

4 On the first uppermost circle I placed the stars, Kruno, and on the second Aphrodit, on the third Aris, on the fifth Zeus, on the sixth Ermis, on the seventh lesser the moon, and adorned it with the lesser stars.

Kronos, Aphrodite, Ares, Zeus, Hermes, etc.

*

Okay, looks like the Greek predates the Enoch texts. Sorry guys, I know most of you know this stuff, but I never gave the apocryphal books much of a look until...now.

Proceed!

Yes it may seem it, taking from the "2 Enoch" a later text than the much older (usually the accepted) "1 Enoch" which is the version in the Ethiopian bible.

Even if it was written in Greek (3 Enoch written in Hebrew) Kronos, Aphrodite, Ares, Zeus, Hermes, as you've highlighted above undoubtedly may cause some confusing pov's being that these were known as Greek gods. However, since the emphasis is on the heavens i.e. stars. The context is different,comparing to the modern names (Roman origin) for the planets:

Ermis = Mercury
Aphrodit = Venus
Aris = Mars
Zeus = Jupiter
Kruno = Saturn

Greek or Latin, makes no difference. Enoch uses those names to refer to actual beings. Not metaphorically, but to real entities.

 

[Learner]

Greek or Latin, makes no difference. Enoch uses those names to refer to actual beings. Not metaphorically, but to real entities.

Enoch names all the main (heavenly) entities in 1 Enoch. Greek gods aren't among them and would obviously not be biblical as according to the Hebrews (fixed heavenly bodies and stars in Genesis) . But you're right ... this version (2 E) does have a tad of being Greek-esque .

 

[Copernicus]

God actually forbids us from doing that which might lead to perdition.
He does not 'allow' it.

That's just not true. The god that you depict is fully capable of stopping anyone from doing things that lead to perdition, yet he chooses not to. That is what "allow" means--choosing not to prevent something.

Now, how would we judge a ruler who intervened to prevent justice whenever it affected his family? Suppose the son of a dictator murdered someone and that victim was the child of parents who equally loved their child and wanted justice. What would we say if the dictator used the love of his own son as a reason NOT to punish him?

How is this relevant to the behavior of a god that, unlike a human dictator, is fully aware of, and in control of, all events? To make a comparable analogy, you would at least have to be talking about a ruler that knew about the murder, could have stopped it, and chose not to. At that point, deciding whether to let his son be punished would be less of an issue than deciding to let the original crime take place. Seriously, you have got to stop treating gods as if they operated under the same constraints as ordinary human beings. They are slightly more powerful than human dictators.

Personallly, I would not worship a god who didn't punish sin or who treated unrepentant murderers the same as their victims. Note - this is what is implied according to the atheistic view that there is no inescapable afterlife justice. According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.

I would say that Hitler didn't actually believe that he was escaping punishment when he committed suicide in that bunker before the Russians got to him. But I get your point. It would not satisfy our very human lust for revenge against an evil monster if that final feeling of angst is all that he got. Eternity in hell. Yeah, that would be a good way of teaching him a lesson.

More to the point, though--what is it that you think God's punishment is for? Is it to change the future behavior of sinners after they die? Is it to deter sin by scaring the potential living sinners for sinning? Or is it just to satisfy his uncontrollable anger at their uppity defiance? What is the point of God's idea that it is fitting to punish sinners?

If God were a mortal, limited human, we could understand the point, I suppose. People do wish for a settling of scores when they feel wronged. Do gods? People also wish to deter bad behavior. Does that mean that postmortem suffering in purgatory/hell has an end when the sinner finally has an attitude change? Is the purpose to scare potential sinners into going straight? To make an example of the bad ones in order to make the living voluntarily behave instead of just fixing what is wrong in their heads? I understand why YOU would want to punish sinners, but I can't make sense of why your god would want to.

 

[bilby]

God actually forbids us from doing that which might lead to perdition.
He does not 'allow' it.

Now, how would we judge a ruler who intervened to prevent justice whenever it affected his family? Suppose the son of a dictator murdered someone and that victim was the child of parents who equally loved their child and wanted justice. What would we say if the dictator used the love of his own son as a reason NOT to punish him?

Personallly, I would not worship a god who didn't punish sin or who treated unrepentant murderers the same as their victims. Note - this is what is implied according to the atheistic view that there is no inescapable afterlife justice. According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.

Your personal distaste at facts doesn't make them one iota less true.

Argument from consequence is a logical fallacy.

If we want people like Hitler or Stalin to suffer for their crimes, we have to get off our knees and do something. Being satisfied with pretending that they didn't really get away with it is just infantile.

 

[James Brown]

Unpunished evil in this world is an incentive to invent Hell.

 

[DBT]

Again? Really?

DBT - Alleged bible contradiction Example #2

"God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Leove is not jealous." - 1 Corinthians 13:4
"God is jealous." - Exodus 20:5

If love and jealousy were mutually exclusive antonyms then nobody in love would ever feel jealousy. But that's a paradox. How can there be any love triangle jealousy without love?

And so it is that when we look at the word "jealous" (in either the English or Hebrew or Greek) we see that it can be used in both negative and positive connotations.

1 Corinthians 13:4 is therefore able to warn of the unloving form of jealousy (in context) without any contradiction of Exodus 20:5 or 1John 4:8

Note also that when the bible errancy crowd skeptics disingenuously quote-mine the phrase "God is love" they want you to think that means a hippy rainbow God of butterflies and unicorns who is supposed to love everything and everyone everywhere at all times. But that's not biblical and it's not true.

You ignore the fact that the bible gives a description of the attributes of both jealousy and love, both what they are and what they are not.....hence your rationale does not work;

1) Love is patient, love is kind - in opposition to - He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

2) Love does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. - in opposition to - "The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

3) It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

4) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

5) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres - in opposition to - Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. (Psalm 135) and
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)


The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to: Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. Isaiah 14:21

The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, ... their land shall be soaked with blood, ... For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance. Isaiah 34:7-8

 

[ruby sparks]

Again? Really?

DBT - Alleged bible contradiction Example #2

"God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Leove is not jealous." - 1 Corinthians 13:4
"God is jealous." - Exodus 20:5

If love and jealousy were mutually exclusive antonyms then nobody in love would ever feel jealousy. But that's a paradox. How can there be any love triangle jealousy without love?

And so it is that when we look at the word "jealous" (in either the English or Hebrew or Greek) we see that it can be used in both negative and positive connotations.

1 Corinthians 13:4 is therefore able to warn of the unloving form of jealousy (in context) without any contradiction of Exodus 20:5 or 1John 4:8

Note also that when the bible errancy crowd skeptics disingenuously quote-mine the phrase "God is love" they want you to think that means a hippy rainbow God of butterflies and unicorns who is supposed to love everything and everyone everywhere at all times. But that's not biblical and it's not true.

You ignore the fact that the bible gives a description of the attributes of both jealousy and love, both what they are and what they are not.....hence your rationale does not work;

1) Love is patient, love is kind - in opposition to - He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

2) Love does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. - in opposition to - "The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

3) It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

4) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

5) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres - in opposition to - Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. (Psalm 135) and
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)


The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to: Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. Isaiah 14:21

The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, ... their land shall be soaked with blood, ... For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance. Isaiah 34:7-8

All very good additional material, but not strictly necessary. 'Love is not jealous' is enough. Saying that people who claim to be in love experience jealousy is irrelevant. Love is not jealous.

 

[DBT]

You ignore the fact that the bible gives a description of the attributes of both jealousy and love, both what they are and what they are not.....hence your rationale does not work;

1) Love is patient, love is kind - in opposition to - He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

2) Love does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. - in opposition to - "The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

3) It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

4) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

5) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres - in opposition to - Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. (Psalm 135) and
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos
3:6, KJV)


The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to: Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. Isaiah 14:21

The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >> as opposed to; The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, ... their land shall be soaked with blood, ... For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance. Isaiah 34:7-8

All very good additional material, but not strictly necessary. 'Love is not jealous' is enough. Saying that people who claim to be in love experience jealousy is irrelevant. Love is not jealous.

All true, yet we can see the level of resistance to what is quite clearly a contradiction. Not just a simple error in logic that doesn't effect the integrity of the bible, but a very serious flaw. Perhaps even a fatal flaw.

 

[Lion IRC]

God actually forbids us from doing that which might lead to perdition.
He does not 'allow' it.

Now, how would we judge a ruler who intervened to prevent justice whenever it affected his family? Suppose the son of a dictator murdered someone and that victim was the child of parents who equally loved their child and wanted justice. What would we say if the dictator used the love of his own son as a reason NOT to punish him?

Personallly, I would not worship a god who didn't punish sin or who treated unrepentant murderers the same as their victims. Note - this is what is implied according to the atheistic view that there is no inescapable afterlife justice. According to atheism, Hitler can commit suicide and his (unpunished) fate is identical to the millions of innocent people whose short lives were full of suffering Hitler inflicted.

I have no problem with punishment, so to speak, but let the punishment fit the crime.

Do you think Servetus deserved to die at the stake, in agony, and then get to spend E-fucking-Ternity in an actual, Dantean Hell, because of what he was able to believe or not believe?

Answer the question in honesty, please.

Would Joseph Mengele get to go to Heaven, if he only believed that Jesus Christ had died for his sins?

Answer the question in honesty, and with courage, and with integrity.

Q1 - no I don't think that.
Q2 - no I don't think that. satan knows what Jesus did on Calvary and he isn't in heaven. (See Matthew 7:21-23)

By the way, I don't need courage or an extra dose of honesty to tell people (like you) what I think about God. LOL

 

[James Brown]

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."

St. Paul gave the very simple formula for escaping Hell and obtaining eternal life in heavenly glory. Is there any reason why a person like Joseph Mengele could not do those two simple things moments before he died?

 

[bilby]

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."

St. Paul gave the very simple formula for escaping Hell and obtaining eternal life in heavenly glory. Is there any reason why a person like Joseph Mengele could not do those two simple things moments before he died?

The heart is a muscular structure that pumps blood. It isn't possible to believe something in your heart, any more than you could believe it in your kidneys or your spleen. Believing is a characteristic of the conscious brain.

St Paul 1; Mengele 0.

 

[WAB]

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved."

St. Paul gave the very simple formula for escaping Hell and obtaining eternal life in heavenly glory. Is there any reason why a person like Joseph Mengele could not do those two simple things moments before he died?

The heart is a muscular structure that pumps blood. It isn't possible to believe something in your heart, any more than you could believe it in your kidneys or your spleen. Believing is a characteristic of the conscious brain.

St Paul 1; Mengele 0.

I believe Paul, and most likely Christ, meant that figuratively, ie belief was a quale; albeit I doubt that word was extant then (< humour!).

Lion: I don't know what doctrine you align to. I retract my silly implication that you lacked integrity, honesty, or courage. Send me a PM, maybe we can talk shop.

I give Mengele less than zero, the bastard.

 

[Jobar]

IMO the plainest and most problematical contradiction for Christians who consider the Bible inerrant, is the question of Jesus' grandfather.

Matthew 1, from the KJV:

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

From Luke 3:

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Except for the names found in the OT, from Abraham to David and his sons, none of those names coincide. Not even the number of generations, which Matthew mentions specifically, match up.

Lion, at least one of those lists has to be wrong. How do you, personally, deal with this fact?

 

[Learner]

That's just not true. The god that you depict is fully capable of stopping anyone from doing things that lead to perdition, yet he chooses not to. That is what "allow" means--choosing not to prevent something.

He did stop it before but.... spared Noah! He could have erased that lot and create His intended paradise again without those of the old infected world .i.e. Start a fresh! I suppose He didn't because He loves mankind?

Choosing and allowing seems to be bouncing round, like a tennis ball missing the "contextual" spots.

If we want people like Hitler or Stalin to suffer for their crimes, we have to get off our knees and do something.

Great idea! We would probably have to make some commandments or sumink.

Being satisfied with pretending that they didn't really get away with it is just infantile.

To state the obvious. Pretenders wouldn't really be believers (Jesus warns against those types)