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Science as a Brief Candle in the Dark

Malthus was wrong, and I think you are too :)

Population expansion followed technological advance, rather than drove it - as we became able to keep more people alive, humanity expanded to fill the new capability, not because of higher birthrates, but because the technologies reduced death rates.[/SIZE]

This was something I was reasonably sure about given past reading but you have me second guessing myself. I suspect it could be a combination of both? Might need to take a closer look.

Birthrates per woman did increase with technology to a small degree, largely because a woman who doesn't survive childbirth can't have further children. But mostly the increases in population were due to more children surviving to reproductive age, as childhood death rates fell.
 
Malthus was wrong, and I think you are too :)

Population expansion followed technological advance, rather than drove it - as we became able to keep more people alive, humanity expanded to fill the new capability, not because of higher birthrates, but because the technologies reduced death rates.[/SIZE]

This was something I was reasonably sure about given past reading but you have me second guessing myself. I suspect it could be a combination of both? Might need to take a closer look.

Birthrates per woman did increase with technology to a small degree, largely because a woman who doesn't survive childbirth can't have further children. But mostly the increases in population were due to more children surviving to reproductive age, as childhood death rates fell.

More curious about the bolded.
 
Yup.

Also, modern civilisation, democracy, wealth and wellbeing. My guess is that if and when the shit ever hits the fan for humans (global catastrophe-wise) superstitions such as religion will dramatically increase again.

Not good (if true) but might at least make many of us feel more grateful for and appreciative of the present, even if it's imperfect. Most of us here live in fortunate times.

This is also why I'm a little more sympathetic than most to pre-modern communities, and those unwashed in science.

What?
All the really useful science was done well before the 17th century.
Fire, the wheel, buoyancy/boats, the lever, the inclined plane, algebra, agriculture...

And even into the 17th century all the really useful scientists were deeply theistic - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Confucians, Hindus...
 
Yup.

Also, modern civilisation, democracy, wealth and wellbeing. My guess is that if and when the shit ever hits the fan for humans (global catastrophe-wise) superstitions such as religion will dramatically increase again.

Not good (if true) but might at least make many of us feel more grateful for and appreciative of the present, even if it's imperfect. Most of us here live in fortunate times.

This is also why I'm a little more sympathetic than most to pre-modern communities, and those unwashed in science.

What?
All the really useful science was done well before the 17th century.
Fire, the wheel, buoyancy/boats, the lever, the inclined plane, algebra, agriculture...

And even into the 17th century all the really useful scientists were deeply theistic - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Confucians, Hindus...

Why am I not surprised that you disparage the value of every advance of the modern age? I bet you would have felt right at home in the 16th Century, back in the good old days when if people disagreed with the views of the church, you were encouraged to set them on fire.

Theism doesn't prevent anyone from doing science. It can make it harder for them, but it's not a complete preventative.

On the other hand, Christianity is not more thoroughly disbelieved by atheist scientists than it is by Muslim, Jewish, Confucian or Hindu scientists. Your insane persistence in lumping together people who think your religion is all kinds of wrong, and declaring them to be supportive of your religious positions because they fall under the term 'theists', is not fooling anyone, except, perhaps, you.
 
A few maxims on epistemology, science, and religion:

- we cannot perceive that which we do not know
- so: before the rise of science, the material nature of the universe was largely unknowable
- so: religion/myth predominated
- so: knowledge of the universe, secularism, materialism, is contingent on modern science and similar
- so: all of us are only secular because secularism is now knowable

Science as a Brief Candle in the Dark

Are you sure you thought this through? If the so called material world is only accessible via the rise of Western-style science, and was "unknowable" in the absence of this paradigm, then that seems like a pretty serious argument against the claimed objectivity of science. You shouldn't need to belong to a philosophical school in order to perceive an objective fact.

Luckily, the weight of evidence is strongly against you. While they did not draw the same distinctions and boundaries around it that you do, all cultures that ever existed have been capable of perceiving, evaluating, and predicting the material universe. Science is awesome, but it is not the only way to approach the material, and I would challenge whether it is the sole property of secular societies at all. "Secular" is a term with only culture-specific historical meaning, and contested meaning at that. Science is a universally accessible paradigm that should work equally well regardless of personal prejudices.
 
A few maxims on epistemology, science, and religion:

- we cannot perceive that which we do not know
- so: before the rise of science, the material nature of the universe was largely unknowable
- so: religion/myth predominated
- so: knowledge of the universe, secularism, materialism, is contingent on modern science and similar
- so: all of us are only secular because secularism is now knowable

Science as a Brief Candle in the Dark

Are you sure you thought this through? If the so called material world is only accessible via the rise of Western-style science, and was "unknowable" in the absence of this paradigm, then that seems like a pretty serious argument against the claimed objectivity of science. You shouldn't need to belong to a philosophical school in order to perceive an objective fact.
You are conflating 'science' as a philosophical school with 'science' the epistemological methodology.
Luckily, the weight of evidence is strongly against you. While they did not draw the same distinctions and boundaries around it that you do, all cultures that ever existed have been capable of perceiving, evaluating, and predicting the material universe. Science is awesome, but it is not the only way to approach the material, and I would challenge whether it is the sole property of secular societies at all. "Secular" is a term with only culture-specific historical meaning, and contested meaning at that. Science is a universally accessible paradigm that should work equally well regardless of personal prejudices.
Science is not the only way to approach reality. But it's the only one we have by which we can know when our conclusions are incorrect, and in need of revision.

In short, all other epistemologies fail to allow us to know the material nature of the universe.

The Standard Model is correct, to within a VERY high degree of precision. We know, because we tested it. All previous hypotheses are known to be wrong. But none of them could have been shown to be wrong without science.

Science doesn't tell us how things are. But it does a terrific job of telling us how things aren't.
 
I think bilby is misled.

I have not heard anything about Malthus being 'wrong'. Indeed, I understand his theory still underlies much of population sciences. I believe Aldo Leopold applied it in his studies of animal populations. Successfully. And, IIRC, Malthus postulates that no matter what factor acts to increase available resources, including technology, the population will expand to meet that increase until the point of mere subsistence is once again attained....

I think bilby suffers from Micawberian delusions.
 
I think bilby is misled.

I have not heard anything about Malthus being 'wrong'. Indeed, I understand his theory still underlies much of population sciences. I believe Aldo Leopold applied it in his studies of animal populations. Successfully. And, IIRC, Malthus postulates that no matter what factor acts to increase available resources, including technology, the population will expand to meet that increase until the point of mere subsistence is once again attained....

I think bilby suffers from Micawberian delusions.

I don't know any demographers who take Malthus seriously. They usually believe that the basis of their work should be empirical evidence, not the ramblings of a Victorian armchair social scientist who wanted an legitimate sounding excuse to kill Irishmen. The overpopulation hysteria is pseudoscience.
 
I think bilby is misled.

I have not heard anything about Malthus being 'wrong'. Indeed, I understand his theory still underlies much of population sciences. I believe Aldo Leopold applied it in his studies of animal populations. Successfully. And, IIRC, Malthus postulates that no matter what factor acts to increase available resources, including technology, the population will expand to meet that increase until the point of mere subsistence is once again attained....

I think bilby suffers from Micawberian delusions.

I don't know any demographers who take Malthus seriously. They usually believe that the basis of their work should be empirical evidence, not the ramblings of a Victorian armchair social scientist who wanted an legitimate sounding excuse to kill Irishmen. The overpopulation hysteria is pseudoscience.

"Overpopulation hysteria"?

:noid:

And...yeah...who the fuck needs theorists? Just go out and collect all that empirical evidence. It'll show you exactly what you need to collect to tell you what you need.

Fuck Einstein, Plank, Sapir, Darwin, Liebnitz, Marx, Newton, Spengler, von Neumann, Boulding...name your favorite...and all those other armchair theorists.

:rolleyes:
 
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Scientific American: Why Malthus Is Still Wrong

Just for the record....Malthus was wrong. This is just one of many scholarly articles as to why....

If by fiat I had to identify the most consequential ideas in the history of science, good and bad, in the top 10 would be the 1798 treatise An Essay on the Principle of Population, by English political economist Thomas Robert Malthus. On the positive side of the ledger, it inspired Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace to work out the mechanics of natural selection based on Malthus's observation that populations tend to increase geometrically (2, 4, 8, 16 …), whereas food reserves grow arithmetically (2, 3, 4, 5 …), leading to competition for scarce resources and differential reproductive success, the driver of evolution.

On the negative side of the ledger are the policies derived from the belief in the inevitability of a Malthusian collapse. “The power of population is so superior to the power of the earth to produce subsistence for man, that premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race,” Malthus gloomily predicted. His scenario influenced policy makers to embrace social Darwinism and eugenics, resulting in draconian measures to restrict particular populations' family size, including forced sterilizations.


In his book The Evolution of Everything (Harper, 2015), evolutionary biologist and journalist Matt Ridley sums up the policy succinctly: “Better to be cruel to be kind.” The belief that “those in power knew best what was good for the vulnerable and weak” led directly to legal actions based on questionable Malthusian science. For example, the English Poor Law implemented by Queen Elizabeth I in 1601 to provide food to the poor was severely curtailed by the Poor Law Amendment Act of 1834, based on Malthusian reasoning that helping the poor only encourages them to have more children and thereby exacerbate poverty. The British government had a similar Malthusian attitude during the Irish potato famine of the 1840s, Ridley notes, reasoning that famine, in the words of Assistant Secretary to the Treasury Charles Trevelyan, was an “effective mechanism for reducing surplus population.” A few decades later Francis Galton advocated marriage between the fittest individuals (“What nature does blindly, slowly, and ruthlessly man may do providently, quickly and kindly”), followed by a number of prominent socialists such as Sidney and Beatrice Webb, George Bernard Shaw, Havelock Ellis and H. G. Wells, who openly championed eugenics as a tool of social engineering.


We think of eugenics and forced sterilization as a right-wing Nazi program implemented in 1930s Germany. Yet as Princeton University economist Thomas Leonard documents in his book Illiberal Reformers (Princeton University Press, 2016) and former New York Times editor Adam Cohen reminds us in his book Imbeciles (Penguin, 2016), eugenics fever swept America in the early 20th century, culminating in the 1927 Supreme Court case Buck v. Bell, in which the justices legalized sterilization of “undesirable” citizens. The court included prominent progressives Louis Brandeis and Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., the latter of whom famously ruled, “Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” The result: sterilization of some 70,000 Americans.


Science writer Ronald Bailey tracks neo-Malthusians in his book The End of Doom (St. Martin's Press, 2015), starting with Paul Ehrlich's 1968 best seller The Population Bomb, which proclaimed that “the battle to feed all of humanity is over.” Many doomsayers followed. Worldwatch Institute founder Lester Brown, for example, declared in 1995, “Humanity's greatest challenge may soon be just making it to the next harvest.” In a 2009 Scientific American article he affirmed his rhetorical question, “Could food shortages bring down civilization?” In a 2013 conference at the University of Vermont, Ehrlich assessed our chances of avoiding civilizational collapse at only 10 percent.


The problem with Malthusians, Bailey writes, is that they “cannot let go of the simple but clearly wrong idea that human beings are no different than a herd of deer when it comes to reproduction.” Humans are thinking animals. We find solutions—think Norman Borlaug and the green revolution. The result is the opposite of what Malthus predicted: the wealthiest nations with the greatest food security have the lowest fertility rates, whereas the most food-insecure countries have the highest fertility rates.


The solution to overpopulation is not to force people to have fewer children. China's one-child policy showed the futility of that experiment. It is to raise the poorest nations out of poverty through democratic governance, free trade, access to birth control, and the education and economic empowerment of women.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-malthus-is-still-wrong/
 
Matches was not wrong. Sconce and trichology made agriculture more efficient which he could not have foreseen. Agriculture on a mass scale and food 24/7 in excess of minimum calories needed.

Look at all the junk food calories we produce.
 
A fate deferred is not a fate avoided.

We will see.

I think we are already in overshoot and are seeing some of the consequences of tapping in to an energy store that powers the technological change which has allowed the deferral. And what is the result? World population has increased almost threefold from 2.5 billion to 7.5 billion in my lifetime. Do you think that in another sixty years, this planet will be able to support 25 billion people? Or, 75 billion in the next generation?

Nature always bats last.

I still think you are delusional about the ability of the planet to accommodate an endlessly multiplying human population and I think the fantasy thinking about how technology is going to save you is delusional. I think it is setting us up for an even bigger, and far more horrific, self-induced societal collapse and massive die-off. I hope to be gone before it occurs.
 
A fate deferred is not a fate avoided.

We will see.

I think we are already in overshoot and are seeing some of the consequences of tapping in to an energy store that powers the technological change which has allowed the deferral. And what is the result? World population has increased almost threefold from 2.5 billion to 7.5 billion in my lifetime. Do you think that in another sixty years, this planet will be able to support 25 billion people? Or, 75 billion in the next generation?

Nature always bats last.

I still think you are delusional about the ability of the planet to accommodate an endlessly multiplying human population and I think the fantasy thinking about how technology is going to save you is delusional. I think it is setting us up for an even bigger, and far more horrific, self-induced societal collapse and massive die-off. I hope to be gone before it occurs.

Here's something for your consideration. I've watched this several times, and despite a feeling that there's something wrong with Hans' thesis, I can't put my finger on it.

[video]https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_population_growth?language= en[/video]
 
A fate deferred is not a fate avoided.

We will see.

I think we are already in overshoot and are seeing some of the consequences of tapping in to an energy store that powers the technological change which has allowed the deferral. And what is the result? World population has increased almost threefold from 2.5 billion to 7.5 billion in my lifetime. Do you think that in another sixty years, this planet will be able to support 25 billion people? Or, 75 billion in the next generation?

Nature always bats last.

I still think you are delusional about the ability of the planet to accommodate an endlessly multiplying human population and I think the fantasy thinking about how technology is going to save you is delusional. I think it is setting us up for an even bigger, and far more horrific, self-induced societal collapse and massive die-off. I hope to be gone before it occurs.

Here's something for your consideration. I've watched this several times, and despite a feeling that there's something wrong with Hans' thesis, I can't put my finger on it.

[video]https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_population_growth?language= en[/video]

Due to video problems, I couldn't watch it, but I listened to it. I think it an interesting hypothesis, but a mite simplistic (as was Malthus' initial hypothesis). I suspect that the familial basis of the pre-industrial social security also had a part in spurring population. More heirs meant more possible supports in one's advanced age, when one was frail. And bigger families meant more farmhands. The modern world is probably the first to transform the role of the child from inexpensive agricultural laborer to household pet.
 
Everything changed with the introduction of the oral contraceptive.

Population concerns were understandable in 1968. But today, they are only possible amongst those who have not looked at any data from the last thirty years (or who are not smart enough to understand it).

In the 1960s and even 70s, an intelligent and well informed person could be forgiven for worrying about population growth, based on the evidence then available, and despite the fact that a nascent solution was already beginning to change the world in unprecedented ways.

Today, there is no excuse for an intelligent or well informed person to consider population growth as a serious problem.

We already produce enough food for ten billion people; And our best projections show population stabilizing at about that level, in about thirty years time. Maybe it will be a couple of billion more - But either way, it's not a problem for us to feed that many.

Famine was a big deal throughout human history. But it peaked in the 1950s, and pretty much disappeared in the 1990s.

Back when Bob Geldof was trying to feed the world through Live Aid in the Ethiopian famines of the 1980s, nobody knew that they had won - that was one of the last mass famines in history. A few years ago, Ethiopia suffered a worse drought even than the one in the late '80s. Few heard anything about it, because there was no famine, and few deaths. Despite the fact that Ethiopia's population was three times as large at the time. But Famine was never only about population. Famine has always required war, or deliberately callous government policy, or an absence of the necessary capability, will, or money to transport food to the affected areas.

Malthus was very wrong indeed.
 
I think bilby is misled.

I have not heard anything about Malthus being 'wrong'. Indeed, I understand his theory still underlies much of population sciences. I believe Aldo Leopold applied it in his studies of animal populations. Successfully. And, IIRC, Malthus postulates that no matter what factor acts to increase available resources, including technology, the population will expand to meet that increase until the point of mere subsistence is once again attained....

I think bilby suffers from Micawberian delusions.

I don't know any demographers who take Malthus seriously. They usually believe that the basis of their work should be empirical evidence, not the ramblings of a Victorian armchair social scientist who wanted an legitimate sounding excuse to kill Irishmen. The overpopulation hysteria is pseudoscience.

"Overpopulation hysteria"?

:noid:

And...yeah...who the fuck needs theorists? Just go out and collect all that empirical evidence. It'll show you exactly what you need to collect to tell you what you need.

Fuck Einstein, Plank, Sapir, Darwin, Liebnitz, Marx, Newton, Spengler, von Neumann, Boulding...name your favorite...and all those other armchair theorists.
:rolleyes:
I am not deeply familiar with all of those men's work, but of those I know well - Einstein, Plank, Newton, Darwin, Spengler, and Marx - all except Spengler and Marx based their theories on what could be empirically observed and experimentally confirmed. Theory based on the practice of science is useful. Theory based on personal biases and political desires is useless and has nothing to do with science.
 
A new report from the UN says that while over the last few decades global poverty has been declining, food availability is starting to become a problem again due to climate change.

India is at or near maxing out water supplies. The University Of Washington predicts due to decreasing snowpacks the Columbia River will be dtawing down. It provides water for Washington and Oregon agriculture.

A govt study says La will be running out of drinking water in 30-40 years. The Colorado River is almost totally consumed. Even without drought Ca agriculture is in trouble.

Our midwest aquifers are drawing down. Govt projections are we will become a net food importer than exporter.

Population growth can not be ignored. Dismissing population issues is like climate change deniers.
 
If we can manage to get all our eggs out of one basket, and start viable colonies on other planets or in artificial space habitats, then I'll stop worrying about the survival of the human race.

Not that I'll live long enough to see any of that. I doubt any of us alive today will. But until we do, nature may very well send us down the same road as the dinosaurs. Either nature in the sense of 'human nature', our cantankerous, greedy, and unforesightful hominid ways; or in the sense of supervolcanoes or massive space rocks or too-close supernovas.

And, yes, science is the only way we will ever outlive the geologically short life span of an average species of megafauna.
 
If we can manage to get all our eggs out of one basket, and start viable colonies on other planets or in artificial space habitats, then I'll stop worrying about the survival of the human race.



It smacks of, "Well, crap, the ashtrays are full. It's time to ditch this pile of shit and get a new ride." Do it once, and it just becomes the standard operating procedure....precedence, y'know?

I am more sympathetic to Garrett Hardin's assessment in Living Within Limits. He opens his book with a dismissal of the extraterrestrial migration thesis. I think it compelling.
 
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A new report from the UN says that while over the last few decades global poverty has been declining, food availability is starting to become a problem again due to climate change.

India is at or near maxing out water supplies. The University Of Washington predicts due to decreasing snowpacks the Columbia River will be dtawing down. It provides water for Washington and Oregon agriculture.

A govt study says La will be running out of drinking water in 30-40 years. The Colorado River is almost totally consumed. Even without drought Ca agriculture is in trouble.

Our midwest aquifers are drawing down. Govt projections are we will become a net food importer than exporter.

Population growth can not be ignored. Dismissing population issues is like climate change deniers.
So how would reducing population solve any of those actual, factually real problems? I grew up in the central valley of California, and can assure you with great certainty from personal experience that our water shortage problems here are critical... and have nothing to do with poor people drinking too much tap water.

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