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Franchise group files to block [Seattle's] $15 minimum-wage phase-in

It's not just the burger flipper, it's the whole chain.

And when the people that were making something above minimum wage see their purchasing power eroded by the inflation and demand more (and get it--they have skills enough in demand they could get more than minimum wage) you'll end up with enough inflation to erode away all the gains, you'll be right back where you started except with the damage caused by the inflation dragging everything down a bit.

How much of the price of a $2.00 burger is the labor?

What he is talking about is all the other labor involved in getting the burger to McDonalds. You have the farmers and the farm hands, the butchers, the packers, shippers, and truckers. So which of those will also be increased because of wage increases?
 
How much of the price of a $2.00 burger is the labor?

What he is talking about is all the other labor involved in getting the burger to McDonalds. You have the farmers industrial agricultural firms and the farm hands illegal immigrants, the butchers illegal immigrants, the packers illegal immigrants, shippers illegal immigrants, and truckers. So which of those will also be increased because of wage increases?

Fixed it for the 21st Century industrialized supply chain reality.
 
What he is talking about is all the other labor involved in getting the burger to McDonalds. You have the farmers industrial agricultural firms and the farm hands illegal immigrants, the butchers illegal immigrants, the packers illegal immigrants, shippers illegal immigrants, and truckers. So which of those will also be increased because of wage increases?

Fixed it for the 21st Century industrialized supply chain reality.

All done to control costs? You don't think other laws will be broken if employers are forced to pay higher wages?
 
Fixed it for the 21st Century industrialized supply chain reality.

All done to control costs? You don't think other laws will be broken if employers are forced to pay higher wages?
What laws are broken? It's perfectly legal to hire anyone with a properly filled out I-9. Why it ain't the meat processing plants fault if they all share the same name and came off the bus with Neuvo Leon license plates? Employers aren't required to do no checks. Yes siree, all 100% legal.

And "controlling costs" as you say it does not mean that these companies cannot afford it. They also hire illegals because they know they will not (and in many cases cannot) sue the company for unsafe working conditions and injuries/deaths cause by the company.
 
It's not just the burger flipper, it's the whole chain.

And when the people that were making something above minimum wage see their purchasing power eroded by the inflation and demand more (and get it--they have skills enough in demand they could get more than minimum wage) you'll end up with enough inflation to erode away all the gains, you'll be right back where you started except with the damage caused by the inflation dragging everything down a bit.

How much of the price of a $2.00 burger is the labor?

In the big picture 100% of it. *ALL* costs are labor if you follow the trail far enough.

All material costs are somebody else's labor cost.
 
Since we are asking ridiculous questions I have some for you. Why don't we drive all of the wages down towards zero? If increasing wages causes unemployment wouldn't we eliminate it by pushing down everyone's wages? Wouldn't you gladly see your own wages lowered to keep everyone employed?

Are there any downsides to lowering everyone's wages?
That's not a ridiculous question. Exactly that has happened on several occasions, in cases where workers have voluntarily chosen wage reductions, furloughs, or time reductions rather than layoffs when the company was facing serious financial challenges.

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The 10.10 that they are talking about at the federal level is what the minimum wage would have been if it had simply kept up with inflation over the last thirty years plus of economic policy infatuation with suppressing wages to increase profits to further enrich the rich. As such it is a very safe increase. Seattle's 15 dollars isn't too far off from the same thing adjusted for the higher costs of living in an urban setting.
It's a 50% increase in minimum wage, from $10 to $15. It's a substantial increase.

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The reason is competition, businesses will compete with one another for the minimum wage workers. The wages will rise to the minimum wage even for those working for exempt employers.
I'm not so certain of this. Given the job market today, I don't think there will be enough pressure on those small businesses to raise their wages. There isn't so much need to compete - there is a higher supply of workers than there are of jobs. The workers aren't going to be picky and turn down those $10 jobs.
 
Someone here said that they thought that supply and demand sets prices but the cost plus overhead and profit set price establishes a floor below which the supply and demand set price can't go. In reality he or she is close to the truth but a bit backwards. The owner sets a cost plus price and the demand for the product determines the amount of sales for the product at that price. Virtually every business looks at average costs and sales volume. I doubt that any business calculates or cares what the marginal product is, what it costs them.
No, most businesses probably don't go through the economic theory model when they're setting prices. Becuase the model is just that - a model. More realistically, it's a two part step:

1) Can we sell this widget for MORE than it costs to make this widget? If the answer is yes, then you have a business, if not then you don't go into production at all.
2) What's the most we can charge for it and get enough sales to make whatever target we want? {Or if they're sophisticated enough, what's the optimal price that brings in the maximum gross profit?}

Step 1 is the Cost of Production element. Step 2 is where Supply and Demand come in. Most small businesses probably don't think of it in terms of supply and demand, at least not in any formal sense. But the model still holds - the relationship is still valid even if the players in the game don't know the names of the forces they're responding to.

In addition there are a lot of factors that effect the demand for a product besides the price; advertising, convenience, reputation, etc. At least fifty percent of the employees of almost any modern corporation are working to distance the corporation's products from market forces. To enable them to charge a higher than market price. And they succeed for the most part.

Yes, there are many elements that influence demand, including all the aspects of brand that you've mentioned as well as competition and fungibility. To a degree, some of those same factors can affect the perception of supply as well - especially fungibility. If the consumer believes that your product is special and uniquely different from other products like it, then the supply of that product doesn't include the products of your competitors.

These aren't distancing the company's product from market forces; these tactics only work because those market forces are real. They work by influencing market forces - by influencing demand and by influencing the perception of supply among consumers. It doesn't allow them to charge a "higher than market price". It allows them to affect demand, which in turn sets a new and different market price for their product.

Any action that a company can take that makes their product more unique and less of a commodity generally allows the company to influence the perception of supply. It sets them apart from their competitors and makes them less fungible. This in turn usually allows them to command a higher price by lowering supply. It is exactly those same market forces at work.

So a company that increases demand by promoting their brand effectively and decreases the perception of supply by reducing their fungibility influences both prongs of the price equation - they simultaneously increase demand (through brand) and lower supply (through reduced fungibility) thus increasing their price.

The same thing works with respect to wages, by the way. The more unique and less fungible one's skills are, the lower the supply. The better you are at promoting your own skills, the higher the demand. The lower the supply for your skills and the higher the demand for your skills, the more you get paid for them. Thus we have CEOs and celebrities and professional athletes.
 
Instead of looking at it from the past, you also need to look at it from the costs. It's not just the marginal theory of productivity, but just basic cash in minus cash out. A $5 an hour increase in wages is a $10K per year per employee increase in costs, not counting the extras so it's about $12K per employee. Five employees and a business is looking at an extra $60K in costs. So the question is what percentage of businesses can find way to absorb that costs. They need to do a combination of raise prices, take the profit hits, or find a way to reduce those costs.

Australia's current MW in US$ is $15.87. The price of their Big Mac? $4.81. The price of a Big Mac in the US? $4.80.

Big Mac Price Index
Australian MW
Currency converter

I don't know about you, but I am willing to pay one more penny so US McDonald's workers can start making $15/hr.

What are the prices of other items on their menu, as opposed to their flagship item? Are they making up differences on fries or drinks, or on other burgers instead? Are their other production costs that are lower? Or do Australian McDonald's report a significantly lower profit margin? These are fairly important questions to address before assuming that a 50% increase in wages results in only a 0.2% increase in price.

That would only hold true if wages were approximately 0.4% of McDonald's total cost of production... which seems unlikely. But I could be wrong, not having seen their financial statements.
 
Australia's current MW in US$ is $15.87. The price of their Big Mac? $4.81. The price of a Big Mac in the US? $4.80.

Big Mac Price Index
Australian MW
Currency converter

I don't know about you, but I am willing to pay one more penny so US McDonald's workers can start making $15/hr.

What are the prices of other items on their menu, as opposed to their flagship item? Are they making up differences on fries or drinks, or on other burgers instead? Are their other production costs that are lower? Or do Australian McDonald's report a significantly lower profit margin? These are fairly important questions to address before assuming that a 50% increase in wages results in only a 0.2% increase in price.

That would only hold true if wages were approximately 0.4% of McDonald's total cost of production... which seems unlikely.

Nearly everything is more expensive in Australia. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Australia
 
It's not just the burger flipper, it's the whole chain.

And when the people that were making something above minimum wage see their purchasing power eroded by the inflation and demand more (and get it--they have skills enough in demand they could get more than minimum wage) you'll end up with enough inflation to erode away all the gains, you'll be right back where you started except with the damage caused by the inflation dragging everything down a bit.
How much of the price of a $2.00 burger is the labor?

In the big picture 100% of it. *ALL* costs are labor if you follow the trail far enough.

All material costs are somebody else's labor cost.
Indeed, comrade 30317_102337429812618_7510164_n.jpg

And each firm's revenue is other firms' labour costs.

But not all costs are minimum wage labour costs. Dollar increases in MW would only put cents on a household budget. Even if all costs were automatically passed on to consumers, who automatically got commensurate wage rises, there'd still be downward redistribution. MW wokers would not be "back where they started."
 
Someone here said that they thought that supply and demand sets prices but the cost plus overhead and profit set price establishes a floor below which the supply and demand set price can't go. In reality he or she is close to the truth but a bit backwards. The owner sets a cost plus price and the demand for the product determines the amount of sales for the product at that price. Virtually every business looks at average costs and sales volume. I doubt that any business calculates or cares what the marginal product is, what it costs them.
No, most businesses probably don't go through the economic theory model when they're setting prices. Becuase the model is just that - a model. More realistically, it's a two part step:

1) Can we sell this widget for MORE than it costs to make this widget? If the answer is yes, then you have a business, if not then you don't go into production at all.
2) What's the most we can charge for it and get enough sales to make whatever target we want? {Or if they're sophisticated enough, what's the optimal price that brings in the maximum gross profit?}

Step 1 is the Cost of Production element. Step 2 is where Supply and Demand come in. Most small businesses probably don't think of it in terms of supply and demand, at least not in any formal sense. But the model still holds - the relationship is still valid even if the players in the game don't know the names of the forces they're responding to.
What model? That is not the neoclassical model which SD has been at pains to describe and I suggest you re-read.
 
How much of the price of a $2.00 burger is the labor?

What he is talking about is all the other labor involved in getting the burger to McDonalds. You have the farmers and the farm hands, the butchers, the packers, shippers, and truckers. So which of those will also be increased because of wage increases?

Yes, I want him to include that.

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How much of the price of a $2.00 burger is the labor?

In the big picture 100% of it. *ALL* costs are labor if you follow the trail far enough.

All material costs are somebody else's labor cost.

Tell that to the cow.
 
How much of the price of a $2.00 burger is the labor?

In the big picture 100% of it. *ALL* costs are labor if you follow the trail far enough.

All material costs are somebody else's labor cost.

Price != Cost.

Surely you don't imagine that Maccas are making zero profit, and just sell burgers for the joy that it brings them?

Or that all of their suppliers (and their supplier's suppliers, and so on) are also making no profit?
 
In the big picture 100% of it. *ALL* costs are labor if you follow the trail far enough.

All material costs are somebody else's labor cost.

Price != Cost.

Surely you don't imagine that Maccas are making zero profit, and just sell burgers for the joy that it brings them?

Or that all of their suppliers (and their supplier's suppliers, and so on) are also making no profit?

Yes it's part of it, but to maintain their profit down the line, each step will be increasing their prices to compensate for the increased labor costs to them.
 
Price != Cost.

Surely you don't imagine that Maccas are making zero profit, and just sell burgers for the joy that it brings them?

Or that all of their suppliers (and their supplier's suppliers, and so on) are also making no profit?

Yes it's part of it, but to maintain their profit down the line, each step will be increasing their prices to compensate for the increased labor costs to them.
Not necessarily and probably not at all. Jeesh, the understanding of how businesses function is really lacking in this thread.
 
Yes it's part of it, but to maintain their profit down the line, each step will be increasing their prices to compensate for the increased labor costs to them.
Not necessarily and probably not at all. Jeesh, the understanding of how businesses function is really lacking in this thread.

What he is saying is that a lot of the costs that get passed on are the labor costs from a previous step, with a lot of it being cyclical.
 
Not necessarily and probably not at all. Jeesh, the understanding of how businesses function is really lacking in this thread.

What he is saying is that a lot of the costs that get passed on are the labor costs from a previous step, with a lot of it being cyclical.

And costs are also absorbed. And profits sometimes grow. Etc. Etc...
 
What he is saying is that a lot of the costs that get passed on are the labor costs from a previous step, with a lot of it being cyclical.

And costs are also absorbed. And profits sometimes grow. Etc. Etc...

Yep, a lot of different things happen, but if we look at what is shown as the flatline of wages and prices over time, prices are tied to the cost of labor over time.
 
I'm just trying to dispel this ridiculous notion that if MW goes up 25%, prices also go up 25% negating the increase in wages. It's a stupid argument.
 
Getting back to opening post...

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2024257566_franchiseinjunctionxml.html

The International Franchise Association has asked a federal judge to immediately block portions of Seattle’s $15 minimum-wage law, which treats local franchises as large businesses.

In a motion for a preliminary injunction filed Wednesday in the U.S. District Court of Western Washington, the group says franchisees will be irreparably harmed and face a competitive disadvantage because the law treats them as large employers solely because they are associated with a national corporation.

Sorry franchise owners, you don't get to have only the benefits of being associated with a (trans)national corporation and none of the drawbacks.

Suck it up and pay your people enough to live on.
While franchises are legally and financially small businesses, consider MacDonalds for example, that both has franchises and owns some restaurants directly. If the motion goes through it could lead to a situation where MacDonalds franchise could keep its wages at lower level than the corporate-owned MacDonald's down the street. This makes no intuitive sense, and is not in the spirit of the exception granted to small businesses anyway.
 
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