Feminism ruins everything: Underarmor edition

[Trausti]

Slight variation on a theme:

Feminism ruins everything: M & S edition?

M & S (Marks and Spencers) have today been accused (most loudly by feminists it seems) of gross insensitivity and sexism for this window display (in London, I think). I heard about it on BBC radio:

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Sian ​Steans, who is a member of the Nottingham Feminist Action Network, told HuffPost UK: "As a feminist and a mother to a young daughter I felt embarrassed that I had to yet again explain why women are depicted with so little respect."

Steans decided to take action and sent the image to the organisers of FiLia, which is dubbed the largest annual feminist conference in the UK and took place in October.

They concurred that the window displays were offensive, writing on Twitter: “To be clear: @marksandspencer believe that the 'MUST HAVES' are: For MEN: 'outfits to impress'. For WOMEN: 'fancy little knickers'. Imagine for a moment if those window displays were reversed. Go on M&S .... we are watching. PS Who signed this off? #sexist #marksandspencer.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle...nickers-and-men-in-suits/ar-BBPUDyu?li=AA59G2

M & S commented:

“We’ve highlighted one combination in our windows, which are part of a wider campaign that features a large variety of must-have Christmas moments, from David Gandy washing up in an M&S suit through to families snuggling up in our matching PJs.”

Here is their main christmas advert, with the tagline 'Must Haves' for Christmas.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_2dh3DeY0k[/YOUTUBE]

Contemporary feminism is really just about unattractive women getting vengeance on the pretty. How dare men not desire the unattractive as they do the pretty.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

..

 

[ruby sparks]

Well, their video didn't help their case at all. Not a single dude in his knickers there either. But the cross-dressing fairy was amusing.

The video also had a man doing the dishes and another man singing along To Bridget Jones. And in another current 'must haves that make christmas' video, a man and a woman snuggling up on a sofa in matching pj's.

In other locations, they currently have 'christmas must have' window displays for women's outfits:



They also currently promote men's underwear.





That's David Gandy, in M & S underwear, the same model used to promote the suits in the 'controversial' window display in Nottingham and the guy doing the dishes in the video.

So I'm not convinced there's really a whole lot of need for this:



My guess is that M & S, like any other high street retailer struggling to survive these days, put in their various adverts, whether in a window in Nottingham or somewhere else, or in a video that gets much wider exposure, combinations of whatever items they hope to sell most of or at most profit to the punters of both sexes likely to be viewing the particular advertising in particular places at this or that time of year, and they probably change the window displays regularly to reflect what is or isn't selling. They are one of the UK's leading women's underwear retailers. Another staple is men's suits.

So what are the lessons to be learned? Who, if anybody, shot themselves in the foot?

Possibly, the sales boffins at M & S HQ are saying 'Maybe we should have had a pair of our men's knickers in that window and maybe a woman's coat', or maybe they are saying, 'Hey, at least look how much more free publicity we got for our men's suits and women's underwear'. And maybe away from advertising and sales executive meetings, members of the general public of both sexes are thinking, 'UK Feminists. It's little wonder so few women and even fewer men want to be one.' As for the newshounds, they got to fill column inches and airtime discussing an important Human Rights issue.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think what it really speaks to is the deplorable way that Big Fashion undervalues the men's lingerie market.

Sometimes we guys like to feel pretty too.

 

[Bronzeage]

I think what it really speaks to is the deplorable way that Big Fashion undervalues the men's lingerie market.

Sometimes we guys like to feel pretty too.

You know, they do have catalogs for that sort of thing.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think what it really speaks to is the deplorable way that Big Fashion undervalues the men's lingerie market.

Sometimes we guys like to feel pretty too.

You know, they do have catalogs for that sort of thing.

Yes, but they should also have store windows for it.

Separate but equal is always just separate and never equal.

 

[ruby sparks]

I think what it really speaks to is the deplorable way that Big Fashion undervalues the men's lingerie market.

You know that's sizeist, and demeaning to Small Fashion, right?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think what it really speaks to is the deplorable way that Big Fashion undervalues the men's lingerie market.

You know that's sizeist, and demeaning to Small Fashion, right?

The industry is about men's undergarments. The smallest companies are the ones who advertise themselves as the biggest out there.

 

[Derec]

Actually, I’m astonished that these days, any business would allow trips to a strip club to be put on an expense account or to be any part of any entertainment for clients or staff, including executive staff.

Unfortunately, you are right. The society is getting more and more prudish.

- - - Updated - - -

What decade is this company in?

Until a few days ago, apparently a decade less prudish, more laid back and more free than the bizarro decade we are inhabiting. Too bad the temporal disturbance caught up with Underaromour as well ...

 

[Derec]

Slight variation on a theme:

Feminism ruins everything: M & S edition?

I am sure Khan Samir will be on the case banning these displays much like he banned the bikinis form tube advertisements.
May I suggest a more politically correct women's fashions for Marks and Sparks to promote?

 

[Derec]

It can be insanely high. I know somebody who earns over $800 Canadian on a single Saturday night, and doesn't work the rest of the week. She does just fine. Doesn't do extras (sex stuff) either. She just dances and gets her boobs groped and it is big money.

How much do lap dances go for in Canadian strip clubs? Going rate in Atlanta is $10/song in most places.

But this is what I have been saying to laughing dog. Many (if not most) of these girls do not work 40h/week. That makes the $48k median earnings stack up even better of course.

 

[Derec]

Underarmor is a business. Their decision to stop reimbursing for a particular expense is because the expense is too high / frequent and does not have an adequate return on investment. That they were able to then end that sentence with "..and women don't generally feel comfortable with the practice" is just a bonus for them... a way to take a money saving corporate policy and make it a PC one, for free.

I don't think so. Obviously it provided a good return on investment all these years. It is not a coincidence that they abolished this practice the same year Formula 1 was pressured to get rid of grid girls (they cost less than the tires a single team burns up during Friday free practices, so "business case" doesn't hold water there either) and Miss America scrapped the swimsuit competition.

 

[Derec]

Well, their video didn't help their case at all. Not a single dude in his knickers there either. But the cross-dressing fairy was amusing.

It shows a man doing the dishes. I though you feminists would be ecstatic over that.

- - - Updated - - -

In other locations, they currently have 'christmas must have' window displays for women's outfits:

They also currently promote men's underwear.

So nothing new. The radical feminists get outraged over nothing.

 

[Derec]

Of course I have. Your data includes people who are not earning income and you are using to compare to people who do earn income.

It includes people who get income. You have not shown why type of income is a relevant metric here, but you are welcome to dig up data on only earned income.

I am not the one making an affirmative claim of fact - you are.

You pull this shit all the time. You demand evidence, but are never satisfied no matter what evidence is provided. You are never satisfied, no matter what.

Please stop comparing me to your sex partners.

You are thinking of your own sex partners here.

The link says it is the average as well (see top left of the linked page).

On the top it says "average". Further down it clarifies that the type of average they mean is the median. It's pretty clear, or are you blind? Look at your own damn website again!

 

[Derec]

Then I will laugh for a moment about the denial of a company expense for a strip club visit "ruining everything."

A slight hyperbole. And not by itself, clearly. But it is part of slide toward more and more prudishness in our society. Note that radical feminists want to ban all adult entertainment, like they did in Iceland and want to do in Scotland.

 

[Derec]

Women stripping to titillate men is not a modern phenomenon. So, stop making shit up.

You are right, of course. And all the more reason why both religious and feminist attempts to end adult entertainment and sex work are so idiotic. It is contrary to human nature.

But I did not mean use of nudity to titillate in general. I meant the modern incarnation of the 'strip club' which is a modern phenomenon. Sexual freedom seems to go in cycles and we are on the down-slope toward more prudishness.

And, please stop making this about feminists. I consider myself a strong feminist. I have no problem with women who choose to work as strippers or sex workers for that matter. As long as it's a choice and not something that the woman has been forced into doing, it's fine by me. I have a friend who worked as a stripper when she was young.

I am aware that not all feminists are alike, and I appreciate your position here. But you can't tell me that anti-sex work, anti-adult entertainment is not an attitude very common among feminists these days. In fact, it is the dominant position, especially in politics. All the feminists in politics today tend to be on the anti side: Hillary Clinton, Amy Klobuchar, Kamala Harris etc.

Unfortunately, stripping doesn't give women a long career, as most men want to see a younger woman strip. But I digress.

Depends on the club to a large extent. I have met many strippers in their 30s and some even in their 40s although of course the majority is in their 20s.
But yes, stripping is a younger (wo)man's game in general. It's not the only such profession of course. And if a stripper is smart she will have a long term plan - school, another profession etc. Note that many strippers are part time for that reason.

You are making a big fuss over one company's policy to no longer pay their employees to take clients to strip shows. Who cares? It's so trivial. You're getting yourself so worked up over this that you felt the need to start a thread and actually use the phrase, "feminism ruins everything", says a lot about you. First of all you assume that feminists are behind this policy change.

They did say it was because of pressure from women's groups. And you are right, one company's policy change may not be that big a deal, but many such changes are. And we are definitely witnessing a slide toward a more prudish culture, which I find a bad development. Underrmour is merely a symptom of a bigger problem.

Then, you assume that all feminists want to ban stripping and other sex work.

Not all feminists, but certainly the majority, and certainly the more politically powerful segment of feminists. It was feminists who implemented the "punish the johns" model of banning sex work in Sweden. They banned strip clubs in Iceland. They want to ban them in Scotland.
Strip clubs could be outlawed in Scotland as new government guidlines rule lapdancing is ‘act of violence’ against women
So yes, you can't deny anti-sex feminism is still a thing, and more politically powerful than in the days of Andrea Dworkin.

Well guess what Derec? Feminists don't always agree with each other. Some feminists do want to ban all sex work, ( like that's ever going to happen )

Well most sex work is already banned everywhere in the US except Nevada.

but lots of us only want sex work to be safer. We want women who choose this type of work to be respected, to be well compensated and to be sure that it's a choice. So for fuck sakes, stop blaming your personal problems on feminists. Stop stereotyping us. Look, I have a lot of respect for Gloria Steinem, as she was a strong influence on many things that improved the lives of women during the time I was a very young adult. But, I don't agree with her on everything, just because we both consider ourselves feminists.

Again, I am not saying all feminists are like that. But they are the most dominant branch of feminism today. Certainly the most politically powerful. One all feminist politicians I know belong to.

One corporation's policy doesn't reflect how feminists feel. For all you know, the underlying motive for this policy change was to save money. It's absolutely nuts that this bothers you so much.

Saving money is not an issue if you give your employees a budget no matter where they take the clients.

 

[Toni]

You are right, of course. And all the more reason why both religious and feminist attempts to end adult entertainment and sex work are so idiotic. It is contrary to human nature.

But I did not mean use of nudity to titillate in general. I meant the modern incarnation of the 'strip club' which is a modern phenomenon. Sexual freedom seems to go in cycles and we are on the down-slope toward more prudishness.


I am aware that not all feminists are alike, and I appreciate your position here. But you can't tell me that anti-sex work, anti-adult entertainment is not an attitude very common among feminists these days. In fact, it is the dominant position, especially in politics. All the feminists in politics today tend to be on the anti side: Hillary Clinton, Amy Klobuchar, Kamala Harris etc.

Unfortunately, stripping doesn't give women a long career, as most men want to see a younger woman strip. But I digress.

Depends on the club to a large extent. I have met many strippers in their 30s and some even in their 40s although of course the majority is in their 20s.
But yes, stripping is a younger (wo)man's game in general. It's not the only such profession of course. And if a stripper is smart she will have a long term plan - school, another profession etc. Note that many strippers are part time for that reason.

You are making a big fuss over one company's policy to no longer pay their employees to take clients to strip shows. Who cares? It's so trivial. You're getting yourself so worked up over this that you felt the need to start a thread and actually use the phrase, "feminism ruins everything", says a lot about you. First of all you assume that feminists are behind this policy change.

They did say it was because of pressure from women's groups. And you are right, one company's policy change may not be that big a deal, but many such changes are. And we are definitely witnessing a slide toward a more prudish culture, which I find a bad development. Underrmour is merely a symptom of a bigger problem.

Then, you assume that all feminists want to ban stripping and other sex work.

Not all feminists, but certainly the majority, and certainly the more politically powerful segment of feminists. It was feminists who implemented the "punish the johns" model of banning sex work in Sweden. They banned strip clubs in Iceland. They want to ban them in Scotland.
Strip clubs could be outlawed in Scotland as new government guidlines rule lapdancing is ‘act of violence’ against women
So yes, you can't deny anti-sex feminism is still a thing, and more politically powerful than in the days of Andrea Dworkin.

Well guess what Derec? Feminists don't always agree with each other. Some feminists do want to ban all sex work, ( like that's ever going to happen )

Well most sex work is already banned everywhere in the US except Nevada.

but lots of us only want sex work to be safer. We want women who choose this type of work to be respected, to be well compensated and to be sure that it's a choice. So for fuck sakes, stop blaming your personal problems on feminists. Stop stereotyping us. Look, I have a lot of respect for Gloria Steinem, as she was a strong influence on many things that improved the lives of women during the time I was a very young adult. But, I don't agree with her on everything, just because we both consider ourselves feminists.

Again, I am not saying all feminists are like that. But they are the most dominant branch of feminism today. Certainly the most politically powerful. One all feminist politicians I know belong to.

One corporation's policy doesn't reflect how feminists feel. For all you know, the underlying motive for this policy change was to save money. It's absolutely nuts that this bothers you so much.

Saving money is not an issue if you give your employees a budget no matter where they take the clients.

Derec, I think you should definitely take up stripping as a part time job to supplement your income and fund your further education.

I'd love to read about your experiences in that field.

 

[Rhea]

Thank god no one will fuck you.

I notice the moderators have not removed this post. Really says all that needs to be said about how low the moderating in this forum has sunk.

Did you report it?

Then I will laugh for a moment about the denial of a company expense for a strip club visit "ruining everything."

A slight hyperbole. And not by itself, clearly. But it is part of slide toward more and more prudishness in our society. Note that radical feminists want to ban all adult entertainment, like they did in Iceland and want to do in Scotland.

Can you name someone on this board who wants to ban all adult entertaiment?
Or are you assigning to all feminist women your caricature of your imagined enemy?

 

[ruby sparks]

I am sure Khan Samir will be on the case banning these displays much like he banned the bikinis form tube advertisements.

Well, he does have two daughters, and no sons.

Is it just me or is it at least mildly interesting how that factor keeps cropping up?

Do not underestimate parenting instincts. See also: bears.

Or am I just an old cynic for thinking that people generally or often advocate for or against things in which they have the greatest perceived personal interests?

 

[southernhybrid]

Well most sex work is already banned everywhere in the US except Nevada.

it's never been legal in the US, and it's now only legal in two counties in Nevada, so it's not like this is something new.

And, as a woman who grew up in the 50s and 60s, I find it amusing that you think the country is "prudish" now. Do you have any idea how "prudish" the country used to be? Unmarried women were rarely sexually active and when they were, they were stigmatized and judged harshly. That was wrong, but sometimes I almost think that was better than what we have now. Young women today often feel pressured into having sex, even when they don't really want to. I know that from experience when I was young and single. The porn from that era, if you could even find any, was pretty much soft porn. There was no porn hub back then. And, I don't remember any strip shows when I was growing up in NJ. There may have been private clubs that offered such entertainment, but it wasn't something available to the public, at least not in the northeast. Such things were hidden from the public. People rarely discussed sex and most gay people were deep in the closet. There were even laws on the books in some states prohibiting certain types of sex. Things are very different these days and other than perhaps some fundamentalist religionists, it's crazy to say that we're becoming more prudish. Maybe women are just tired of being taken for granted and being objectified. But, that doesn't equate with prudishness.

I don't think you can say that most feminists are against sex work. How would you even know that? There are some feminist celebrities who are against it, but that doesn't mean that most even care about this issue. A lot of sex workers consider themselves feminists too. All I'm trying to say to you is that you shouldn't make generalizations about any group of people based on a few that you may know about. So, if you want to have a discussion about this topic, it would be best if you stopped blaming things that you don't like on feminists. Feminists really don't have that much power, believe it or not.

I tend to think that women who object to sex work have never talked to women who actually enjoy doing what they do. Some feel empowered by their work. Some like the income. Sure, some are exploited and only do the work because they are desperate or have been forced into it, and fighting against that type of thing is a worthy cause. When women think it through and realize that sex workers also do a valuable service for disabled people, lonely people, socially awkward people, people in long term but sexless relationships etc. they often change their opinions. I'd just like to see women in these professions treated more respectfully and not be exploited. Sex work is the one area of work where women are more highly compensated than men, so at least there's that.

And, most women don't even like or use the term feminist anymore because it is often misunderstood. All feminism means is that women should have the same social, economic and political opportunities as men currently do. That's pretty much it. From your posts, I don't think you understand that, but maybe I've given you a little food for thought. One can hope.