The objective mind

[untermensche]

So, where is the evidence? Where is the research, case studies and analysis to back your claims?

All I can see is you avoiding the issue of justification, forever protesting while repeating your claims.

Evidence please.

You have no research to back up your position. NONE!

In all the research you have presented the mind is always nothing but subjective reports.

There is no more understanding of the mind than that.

You have no point.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I checked with myself and, no, I don't know that it is my mind and not my brain "commanding" the checking to take place (or rather, willing the checking, in good English).

Shall we go another round?
EB

I know for certain it is me not something else commanding the arm to move.

(...)

That is certain.

No, it's not certain. It's just you being certain. I'm certainly not certain. I'm certain I'm not certain. See?

Certainty is an epistemological modality. A degree of belief. The highest degree of belief. You really, really, really believe whatever you believe. But certainty is not knowledge. Meaning, you still don't know.

Funny thing, what makes you believe this is of course your brain. It's in effect your brain believing it is moving an arm it believes exists. It doesn't know either but the difference is, it's the brain that's producing the belief. And when you're saying "I'm certain", it's still the brain that's producing the belief and the certainty and the saying. So, here we are experiencing our brains exchanging about metaphysical and epistemological issues. My brain says it's clear your brain doesn't understand much. You should consider buying a new one.

You're like people who were certain that the Sun turned around the Earth. They probably believed they knew the Sun turned around the Earth. They were so certain. It was so bloody obvious. But you're no Copernic. You're a Pope, full of your certainty and unable to see that it is just as logically possible that is was the Earth that turned around the Sun.

With a brain like that, you're not going to come up with any bright idea any time soon. All you have is just one trite idea that it's certain it's really you, your mind, moving the arm. And you're so certain of it, it's really moving (pun). Well, sure it's certain. It's a belief we all have with the highest degree of certainty, me included. Yet, we're wrong, just as Popes were shown wrong with Copernic's bright logical intuition that maybe it was the Earth that was doing turning. You're no Copernic.

You're just a Pope. And like them, you have no argument. All you can say is repeat "I'm certain it's my mind". Well, this is not going to make any revolution in our view of the world, I can predict that.
EB

 

[untermensche]

I am certain I must first do something with my mind before my arm moves as I desire.

There is no doubt.

It is like saying I am certain I must stand before I can walk.

It is a clear understanding of the order of events based on many many experiences.

There is never the experience of the arm not moving as I command when I give the command.

There is never the experience of the arm moving as I desire without the command.

All experience is the same.

The command is given then the arm moves as desired.

Of this we are certain.

 

[DBT]

So, where is the evidence? Where is the research, case studies and analysis to back your claims?

All I can see is you avoiding the issue of justification, forever protesting while repeating your claims.

Evidence please.

You have no research to back up your position. NONE!

Sure I have. Which I have provided in abundance. Research that ties the features and attributes of consciousness, sensations of sight, sound, thoughts, feelings, etc, to the brain and its senses....that it is the brain that interprets nerve impulses from the senses and forms conscious experience based on information received and memory function...a break down in the mechanism resulting in a breakdown in the related conscious experience, sight is lost, memory is lost, motor function is lost,'

But of course, you ignore all research, all experiments, case studies and evidence, analysis by researchers because, well, you think you know better.

In all the research you have presented the mind is always nothing but subjective reports.

There is no more understanding of the mind than that.

You have no point.

No, it's not ''nothing bur subjective reports,'' far from it.

Your claim is false

You make false claims in order to draw attention away from your own unfounded claims, to give the impression that you have a case to argue when in fact you have nothing.

Again - where is your evidence?

 

[untermensche]

Sure I have. Which I have provided in abundance.

Total lies are not an argument.

You have NO research that even knows what the mind is.

You can't show me a study that knows what the mind is.

In every study that you give the mind is just subjective reports. It is never some specific activity of the brain. It is never the "objective mind" under examination.

That is all you know of the mind.

What everybody knows.

It can give subjective reports.

You have nothing!

Yet you go on and on as if you do.

The delusion is deep in you.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I am certain I must first do something with my mind before my arm moves as I desire.

There is no doubt.

It's just you believing and claiming there is no doubt. Shall we do an other round?

It is like saying I am certain I must stand before I can walk.

Oh, I understand your certainty. No need to explain by going into comparable certainties.

It is a clear understanding of the order of events based on many many experiences.

Yes, your certainty is indeed empirical. It is based on experience, as you say yourself. That's good. You're not entirely irrational.

Second, you justify your certainty as an inference from many repeated experiences. That's good since that's what we all do in the course of our lives and I hope we can't said to be all idiots.

Third, this shows your certainty has the same probability of being true as absolutely whatever anybody, including any complete idiot, come to believe about the real world on the sole basis of their own very, very, very limited experience of life. Not so very bad but not exactly anything to crow about as you've been doing here for so many years without any decency.

Fourth, this explains why you don't know the thing you say you know. You're certain of it like any idiot come to be certain of things. Things like for example that it is certain that it is the Sun which is turning around the Earth, and certainly not the Earth turning around the Sun.

And, of course, this is the kind of certainty which is best done by brains. That's what they do. They infer reasonable beliefs from the inevitably very limited experiences they can collect about life. It's all your brain that's makes you believe what you believe. It's your brain that making you believe you're moving an arm, an arm which doesn't even exist as such.

There is never the experience of the arm not moving as I command when I give the command.

There is never the experience of the arm moving as I desire without the command.

This just shows you're fortunate enough not to have experienced situations where arms and legs do things without your command. Or don't do what you command. These things can happen precisely because it's brains that are doing it and brains can suffer from any number of very interesting ailments. There's nothing so interesting to witness as your own brain expanding the range of your familiar experience of reality outside rationality. You'll get there, though, because we all do unless we're perhaps fortunate enough to die before. Wait for when you stop being able to dress yourself, to understand what you should do now, to recognise family, to remember your own children, to understand what people say. And I'll refrain from more picturesque and graphical things people can get to experience. Just wait.

So, as I said, you have a very, very, very limited experience of life. You should go out and talk to people and family a bit more.

All experience is the same.

Not mine. So what you say is just terminally wrong.

The command is given then the arm moves as desired.

Sure, the brain gives the command, you think you've done it, and it looks like what you desired, desire that's also produced by the brain. And when you're brain gets subject to senescence, things may start to look different.

Of this we are certain.

No, we're not. We're not all moronic Popes. There's many Copernicuses out there, fortunately.
EB

 

[untermensche]

It's just you believing and claiming there is no doubt. Shall we do an other round?

I am certain I must first do something with my mind before my arm moves as I desire.

There is no doubt.

I do not believe I experience what I experience.

I know it.

Belief is not involved. I have no choice but to experience what I experience.

It is what I am.

There is no way to doubt.

You have not given any way for me to doubt I am experiencing the flower when I am experiencing it.

How is that possible?

Your claims that doubt is possible are just nonsense.

How does one doubt they are commanding the arm to move when they are actively doing it?

Experience cannot be doubted.

All else can.

 

[DBT]

Sure I have. Which I have provided in abundance.

Total lies are not an argument.

You have NO research that even knows what the mind is.

You can't show me a study that knows what the mind is.

In every study that you give the mind is just subjective reports. It is never some specific activity of the brain. It is never the "objective mind" under examination.

That is all you know of the mind.

What everybody knows.

It can give subjective reports.

You have nothing!

Yet you go on and on as if you do.

The delusion is deep in you.

So, no research, no experiments, evidence or analysis by researchers to support what you claim......only another dummy spit.

An offer of insults and tantrums instead of logic and reason, assertions instead of valid arguments.

Just what I expected.

 

[untermensche]

Sure I have. Which I have provided in abundance.

Total lies are not an argument.

You have NO research that even knows what the mind is.

You can't show me a study that knows what the mind is.

In every study that you give the mind is just subjective reports. It is never some specific activity of the brain. It is never the "objective mind" under examination.

That is all you know of the mind.

What everybody knows.

It can give subjective reports.

You have nothing!

Yet you go on and on as if you do.

The delusion is deep in you.

So, no research, no experiments, evidence or analysis by researchers to support what you claim......only another dummy spit.

Every idea you can't comprehend is not "dummy spit".

Stupidity and not being able to think independently is not an argument.

You drone on and on about how the brain is responsible for the mind. In other words some activity of the brain is creating the mind. Certainly a brain without activity is not creating a mind. The important thing is the activity not the dumb instrument creating the activity as a continuous reflex. If you knew what the activity was you could in theory replicate it with something other than a brain.

Yet you can't seem to understand that if the brain is creating the subjective mind then the activity that creates the subjective mind may one day be discovered.

And that activity is the "objective mind". An objective activity creating a subjective mind.

And the activity is very specific. Change it and you are not awake. Change it enough and you will never wake.

Why you can't comprehend these simple ideas is amazing.

It takes a special kind of "education" to be so blind.

 

[Speakpigeon]

It's just you believing and claiming there is no doubt. Shall we do an other round?

I am certain I must first do something with my mind before my arm moves as I desire.

There is no doubt.

I do not believe I experience what I experience.

I know it.

Belief is not involved. I have no choice but to experience what I experience.

It is what I am.

There is no way to doubt.

You have not given any way for me to doubt I am experiencing the flower when I am experiencing it.

How is that possible?

Your claims that doubt is possible are just nonsense.

How does one doubt they are commanding the arm to move when they are actively doing it?

Experience cannot be doubted.

All else can.

???

Clearly you don't understand what people say. You're unable to follow a conversation. Please quote me saying experience can be doubted.
EB

 

[untermensche]

Then the experience of doing something with your mind to move the arm cannot be doubted.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Then the experience of doing something with your mind to move the arm cannot be doubted.

You cannot doubt you have the experience.

But you can doubt whether any arm is moved or indeed whether there is an arm to begin with.

Second, you can doubt whether you're "doing something with your mind". All you know is that you have the experience of doing something.
EB

 

[untermensche]

If there us an arm how do you doubt it moved on command?

If there is no arm then all is a delusion.

 

[Speakpigeon]

If there us an arm how do you doubt it moved on command?

If there is no arm then all is a delusion.

No.
EB

 

[untermensche]

That unsupported worthless opinion is noted.

Thanks for trying.

Bye bye.

 

[DBT]

So, no research, no experiments, evidence or analysis by researchers to support what you claim......only another dummy spit.

Every idea you can't comprehend is not "dummy spit".

I wasn't referring to your fallacious ideas, I was referring to your dummy spit. It is there for anyone to see.

Stupidity and not being able to think independently is not an argument.

Stupidity is to continue believing in something that has been dismissed a long time ago. Nobody except the fringe element claims autonomy of mind. There is no evidence and the evidence we do have supports brain activity as being the source of mind.

Your little absurdity is to claim that somehow, inexplicably, the mind takes on a life of its own and runs the brain like a chief executive.

And whenever you are cornered, unable to provide evidence, unable to provide research to support your unfounded claim, you spit the dummy.

Piled on top of this absurdity, you claim that nothing can be know about the mind.....even while offering your 'knowledge' about autonomy of mind, a smart mind operating a dumb brain, yet never seeing the irony.

 

[DBT]

Then the experience of doing something with your mind to move the arm cannot be doubted.

Yet you persist in ignoring the underlying mechanisms and means of your conscious experience....which by the token of being the underlying mechanisms, you cannot experience, hence you deny altogether. You do that even while dismissing all research and evidence on motor function and conscious report.

 

[Speakpigeon]

If there is no arm then all is a delusion.

That unsupported worthless opinion is noted.

Thanks for trying.

Bye bye.
UM

Show

See? You're contradicting yourself. Like always.
EB

 

[untermensche]

Then the experience of doing something with your mind to move the arm cannot be doubted.

Yet you persist in ignoring the underlying mechanisms and means of your conscious experience....which by the token of being the underlying mechanisms, you cannot experience, hence you deny altogether. You do that even while dismissing all research and evidence on motor function and conscious report.

You do not understand the underlying mechanisms.

You do not know where the command comes from. You do not know what the mind is.

The mind is not activity. It is something that arises out of activity.

Talking only about activity and thinking you have some understanding of the mind is absolute ignorance.

You understand a little of how the reflexive brain responds to the command from the active autonomous contemplative mind to move the arm.

But you have no clue how the mind commands the brain to do it.

 

[Speakpigeon]

The mind is not activity. It is something that arises out of activity.

You don't know that either, like most of what you claim you know.

I may be that the mind is entirely the activity of the brain. From a scientific perspective, it's definitely the best option. You don't know that this is not true.

But you have no clue how the mind commands the brain to do it.

You don't know that the mind commands the brain. You're talking out of your arse.
EB