The glass ceiling is now made of concrete.

[DrZoidberg]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

 

[Toni]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

Yeah, how dare women complain about sexual harassment and not expect to be punished for it? How dare women expect adult men to treat all people with dignity and respect and as equals? We need to just shut up about shit, bring the mens their coffee with smiles on our faces, and when we are being groped or worse, simply assume the blank look and think of England.

You'd almost think that women expect to be treated as....people or something.

 

[DrZoidberg]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

Yeah, how dare women complain about sexual harassment and not expect to be punished for it? How dare women expect adult men to treat all people with dignity and respect and as equals? We need to just shut up about shit, bring the mens their coffee with smiles on our faces, and when we are being groped or worse, simply assume the blank look and think of England.

You'd almost think that women expect to be treated as....people or something.

You're just being dishonest now. The problem was never that women spoke out. That's the good thing about #MeToo. The problem is that it came with due process getting thrown out the window. That's the problem. But you already know this. I think you were misunderstanding me on purpose just to get to throw a justified indignant tantrum. Sorry... It crashed and burned. I didn't fall for it and I doubt anybody else did either

 

[Politesse]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

If the price of advancement was silence in the face of sexual assault, the ceiling was already there.

 

[DrZoidberg]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

If the price of advancement was silence in the face of sexual assault, the ceiling was already there.

That makes no sense. Why can't women speak up about sexual assault AND we decide to respect due process? Why does there need to be a conflict? That's the argument you are making.

I had no problem about women speaking up. I thought that was a great thing. But it very quickly turned into a witch hunt and the mob stopped caring about guilt. They just wanted blood. That's when #MeToo lost my support

 

[blastula]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

Sounds like an urban myth. Whose careers have been unfairly lost? Compared to how many women's careers and lives have been damaged in the status quo?

 

[Politesse]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

If the price of advancement was silence in the face of sexual assault, the ceiling was already there.

That makes no sense. Why can't women speak up about sexual assault AND we decide to respect due process? Why does there need to be a conflict? That's the argument you are making.

I had no problem about women speaking up. I thought that was a great thing. But it very quickly turned into a witch hunt and the mob stopped caring about guilt. They just wanted blood. That's when #MeToo lost my support

So "the mob" is to blame? Not the people who perpetrated the actual crimes, and those who created an oppressive atmosphere for reporting, not the unwillingness of most institutions to investigate such claims unless there is pressure from 'the mob"? I agree that due process should be respected, but it obviously was not the status quo before #metoo, and I don't see how this could have changed without #metoo. Corporations do not act without monetary incentive to act, it is not in their nature.

 

[Toni]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

Yeah, how dare women complain about sexual harassment and not expect to be punished for it? How dare women expect adult men to treat all people with dignity and respect and as equals? We need to just shut up about shit, bring the mens their coffee with smiles on our faces, and when we are being groped or worse, simply assume the blank look and think of England.

You'd almost think that women expect to be treated as....people or something.

You're just being dishonest now. The problem was never that women spoke out. That's the good thing about #MeToo. The problem is that it came with due process getting thrown out the window. That's the problem. But you already know this. I think you were misunderstanding me on purpose just to get to throw a justified indignant tantrum. Sorry... It crashed and burned. I didn't fall for it and I doubt anybody else did either

Who is being dishonest here? It ain’t me,babe.

 

[DrZoidberg]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

Sounds like an urban myth. Whose careers have been unfairly lost? Compared to how many women's careers and lives have been damaged in the status quo?

Since #MeToo there has been a shift in corporate behaviour. Older men I know have completely stopped even considering mentoring young women. It's automatically suspect today. It's comparable to an older man playing a random child. Today we all think paedophile. Nobody wants their careers destroyed by things outside their control. If they open their doors to young women they leave themselves wide open to be destroyed. Not to mention cause damage to the company. So playing it safe is the rational thing to do. That's just the people I have spoken to in Sweden. This article confirms it.

One caveat though. It wasn't a witch hunt everywhere. I live in Denmark now. People managed to stay adult here. And #MeToo didn't devolve into a witch hunt. Here #MeToo turned out 100% positive. In Sweden it was/is a disaster.

 

[blastula]

Again, whose careers have been lost unfairly?

 

[DrZoidberg]

You're just being dishonest now. The problem was never that women spoke out. That's the good thing about #MeToo. The problem is that it came with due process getting thrown out the window. That's the problem. But you already know this. I think you were misunderstanding me on purpose just to get to throw a justified indignant tantrum. Sorry... It crashed and burned. I didn't fall for it and I doubt anybody else did either

Who is being dishonest here? It ain’t me,babe.

I ain't biting. Jog on. You tried derailing this discussion with irrelevances and it failed. You deserve being ignored and that's what I'll do.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Again, whose careers have been lost unfairly?

In Sweden there was a number of prominent men, mostly journalists targeted by #MeToo. The main problem was that the leading voice in the Swedish #MeToo had for years tried to frame a prominent Swedish journalist called Fredrik Virtanen, in what only can be called harassment. He was Sweden's highest paid journalist at the time. She had already reported him to the cops and had the case thrown out. This was in 2014. Then #MeToo came and she banged on the big drum and accused him. He was fired and completely frozen out of the jobs market. Screwed. That's just the most prominent. A cold case that had already been reported and dismissed should not be the grounds for firing anybody. Nor be taken seriously by anybody.

There came a lot of accusations of minor people. Industry by industry witch hunts were carried out. The methods were all the same. Various groups of women on Facebook would list suspects and then them down. Shrill feminists would rail in the media against these people and everybody knew who they were talking about without them naming names. And these could operate unopposed.

Sweden's most famous comedian, Soran Ismael's career was similarly destroyed. The accusations also turned out not to stick. He's now left comedy a studying to be a psychologist.

As far as I know only a single one of these men had anything tangible against them. Martin Timell. The rest was all bullshit.

So it had a huge impact on Sweden

- - - Updated - - -

Again, whose careers have been lost unfairly?

In Sweden there was a number of prominent men, mostly journalists targeted by #MeToo. The main problem was that the leading voice in the Swedish #MeToo had for years tried to frame a prominent Swedish journalist called Fredrik Virtanen, in what only can be called harassment. He was Sweden's highest paid journalist at the time. She had already reported him to the cops and had the case thrown out. This was in 2014. Then #MeToo came and she banged on the big drum and accused him. He was fired and completely frozen out of the jobs market. Screwed. That's just the most prominent. A cold case that had already been reported and dismissed should not be the grounds for firing anybody. Nor be taken seriously by anybody.

There came a lot of accusations of minor people. Industry by industry witch hunts were carried out. The methods were all the same. Various groups of women on Facebook would list suspects and then them down. Shrill feminists would rail in the media against these people and everybody knew who they were talking about without them naming names. And these could operate unopposed.

Sweden's most famous comedian, Soran Ismael's career was similarly destroyed. The accusations also turned out not to stick. He's now left comedy a studying to be a psychologist.

As far as I know only a single one of these men had anything tangible against them. Martin Timell. The rest was all bullshit.

So it had a huge impact on Sweden

 

[Toni]

You're just being dishonest now. The problem was never that women spoke out. That's the good thing about #MeToo. The problem is that it came with due process getting thrown out the window. That's the problem. But you already know this. I think you were misunderstanding me on purpose just to get to throw a justified indignant tantrum. Sorry... It crashed and burned. I didn't fall for it and I doubt anybody else did either

Who is being dishonest here? It ain’t me,babe.

I ain't biting. Jog on. You tried derailing this discussion with irrelevances and it failed. You deserve being ignored and that's what I'll do.

Sure. Calling out fake outrage is a derail. Because women are not interested in due process or evidence. We sure cannot advance our careers on talent or qualifications. We’re wrong to not just accept that it’s on our backs or knees.

 

[Toni]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

Sounds like an urban myth. Whose careers have been unfairly lost? Compared to how many women's careers and lives have been damaged in the status quo?

Since #MeToo there has been a shift in corporate behaviour. Older men I know have completely stopped even considering mentoring young women. It's automatically suspect today. It's comparable to an older man playing a random child. Today we all think paedophile. Nobody wants their careers destroyed by things outside their control. If they open their doors to young women they leave themselves wide open to be destroyed. Not to mention cause damage to the company. So playing it safe is the rational thing to do. That's just the people I have spoken to in Sweden. This article confirms it.

One caveat though. It wasn't a witch hunt everywhere. I live in Denmark now. People managed to stay adult here. And #MeToo didn't devolve into a witch hunt. Here #MeToo turned out 100% positive. In Sweden it was/is a disaster.

Sounds like a lot of extremely lame excuses. It is certainly possible to mentor young women and not be accused of inappropriate behavior. Step one: don’t engage in inappropriate behavior. Step 2: why work one on one with anyone? It’s not necessary.

You are healing a lot of blame with little evidence on a movement that is just a year old.

 

[Toni]

Again, whose careers have been lost unfairly?

Seems like a couple of famous Swedes, including one who evenDr. Z admits was justified. The other famous person’s accuser had filed charges with the police and the police didn’t think they were valid enough to go forward. We all know that police always investigate every claim of sexual assault thoroughly, especially when a famous man is involved. Even more when he is a famous journalist. And of course any behavior that does not rise to criminal is fair game and not grounds for professional sanctions.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Again, whose careers have been lost unfairly?

Here's one article from a guy about it

https://quillette.com/2018/09/25/how-an-anonymous-accusation-derailed-my-life/

There's also a politician here in Ontario named Patrick Brown. He was set to be Premier (like a Governor) of the province, but was drummed out because of sexual assault allegations, which later turned out to be unfounded, but the election was already over and his replacement is now Premier. After the allegations went nowhere, he ran for Mayor of a major city and won, but it's still a large step down from Premier.

Regardless of how many careers are actually lost unfairly, though, the topic of the thread has to do with the perception of whether someone is risking their career by being alone with a woman or taking one on as a mentor. As a related example, my wife and her friends will not use Uber alone and will pay more for a taxi when they're travelling by themselves because they've heard stories of Uber drivers raping women and think that all the background checks and the like make taxis safer options. Now, over 99.99% of Uber rides are perfectly safe and they wouldn't get sexually assaulted but there's enough stories about it that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation.

If there is a similar sort of perception amongst male executives because they feel there are enough stories about false accusations that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation and that one-on-one time with senior leadership is a valuable thing for one's career, then the careers of female workers would be negatively impacted by not being able to participate in them.

 

[blastula]

Again, whose careers have been lost unfairly?

In Sweden there was a number of prominent men, mostly journalists targeted by #MeToo. The main problem was that the leading voice in the Swedish #MeToo had for years tried to frame a prominent Swedish journalist called Fredrik Virtanen, in what only can be called harassment. He was Sweden's highest paid journalist at the time. She had already reported him to the cops and had the case thrown out. This was in 2014. Then #MeToo came and she banged on the big drum and accused him. He was fired and completely frozen out of the jobs market. Screwed. That's just the most prominent. A cold case that had already been reported and dismissed should not be the grounds for firing anybody. Nor be taken seriously by anybody.

There came a lot of accusations of minor people. Industry by industry witch hunts were carried out. The methods were all the same. Various groups of women on Facebook would list suspects and then them down. Shrill feminists would rail in the media against these people and everybody knew who they were talking about without them naming names. And these could operate unopposed.

Sweden's most famous comedian, Soran Ismael's career was similarly destroyed. The accusations also turned out not to stick. He's now left comedy a studying to be a psychologist.

As far as I know only a single one of these men had anything tangible against them. Martin Timell. The rest was all bullshit.

So it had a huge impact on Sweden

I tried to look up those stories as best I could since had to translate articles. From what I can tell, Virtanen was accused by several women of misconduct, not just by Wallin. Her accusation was not prosecuted, but insufficient evidence to prosecute criminally does not mean it's a false accusation. Lack of evidence comes with the territory for these allegations, where often two people are alone in a room. Are victims supposed to shutup unless they have video evidence? It seems they are in Sweden, because Wallin is now being prosecuted for supposedly harassing him by simply accusing him. Is there evidence she she lied? If not, that's very odd to try to punish her. It looks like the playing field is uneven against accusers.

I am not as familiar with Sweden, but I can tell from the US where metoo began, that there is not some egregious onslaught against men going on. As Tom said, there could be a perception that there is even if false, and that is a risk of speaking out of course, but it doesn't make it wrong to speak out, any more than a wrongful conviction means we should abolish the justice system. Even that there are false accusations, it doesn't make metoo a harmful movement on balance. There is no comparison as I see it to any harm being done to the accused, compared to the harm done to the accusers for ages and still ongoing. It's like that saying, "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."

 

[DrZoidberg]

Again, whose careers have been lost unfairly?

In Sweden there was a number of prominent men, mostly journalists targeted by #MeToo. The main problem was that the leading voice in the Swedish #MeToo had for years tried to frame a prominent Swedish journalist called Fredrik Virtanen, in what only can be called harassment. He was Sweden's highest paid journalist at the time. She had already reported him to the cops and had the case thrown out. This was in 2014. Then #MeToo came and she banged on the big drum and accused him. He was fired and completely frozen out of the jobs market. Screwed. That's just the most prominent. A cold case that had already been reported and dismissed should not be the grounds for firing anybody. Nor be taken seriously by anybody.

There came a lot of accusations of minor people. Industry by industry witch hunts were carried out. The methods were all the same. Various groups of women on Facebook would list suspects and then them down. Shrill feminists would rail in the media against these people and everybody knew who they were talking about without them naming names. And these could operate unopposed.

Sweden's most famous comedian, Soran Ismael's career was similarly destroyed. The accusations also turned out not to stick. He's now left comedy a studying to be a psychologist.

As far as I know only a single one of these men had anything tangible against them. Martin Timell. The rest was all bullshit.

So it had a huge impact on Sweden

I tried to look up those stories as best I could since had to translate articles. From what I can tell, Virtanen was accused by several women of misconduct, not just by Wallin. Her accusation was not prosecuted, but insufficient evidence to prosecute criminally does not mean it's a false accusation. Lack of evidence comes with the territory for these allegations, where often two people are alone in a room. Are victims supposed to shutup unless they have video evidence? It seems they are in Sweden, because Wallin is now being prosecuted for supposedly harassing him by simply accusing him. Is there evidence she she lied? If not, that's very odd to try to punish her. It looks like the playing field is uneven against accusers.

I am not as familiar with Sweden, but I can tell from the US where metoo began, that there is not some egregious onslaught against men going on. As Tom said, there could be a perception that there is even if false, and that is a risk of speaking out of course, but it doesn't make it wrong to speak out, any more than a wrongful conviction means we should abolish the justice system. Even that there are false accusations, it doesn't make metoo a harmful movement on balance. There is no comparison as I see it to any harm being done to the accused, compared to the harm done to the accusers for ages and still ongoing. It's like that saying, "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."

Wallin is being tried for harrassement because of actual harrassement. This case just screams bullshit. Wallin is a journalist who has made a career out of being a victim, yet with nothing to be a victim about. Then this came. I know a lot of people around both Virtanen and Wallin. Wallin is not in any way a reliable person. She's always been full of shit. Making something like this up is completely her style.

The other people who accused him of stuff was just him being a drunk asshole in bars. Which he immediately confessed to and apologised for. But nothing to get upset about really and certainly nothing to report to the police. It only surfaced after the media asked the public for incriminating stories and offered money for them.

There is one which is serious, and that's a teenage girl who sent an e-mail asking for an internship. He answered that she's hired if she sleeps with him. Again.. obviously a drunken e-mail and probably not a serious request. He had no idea how old she was. He should have known better. It's bad, but not super bad. We've all sent drunk text messages we later regret.

In Sweden #MeToo went too far and then some. It was an incredibly unhealthy development. And in the next election the Swedish Nazi party became Sweden third biggest party. A predictable development.

 

[RavenSky]

If the price of advancement was silence in the face of sexual assault, the ceiling was already there.

There can be no argument with that (though I know some will try)

 

[RavenSky]

Regardless of how many careers are actually lost unfairly, though, the topic of the thread has to do with the perception of whether someone is risking their career by being alone with a woman or taking one on as a mentor. As a related example, my wife and her friends will not use Uber alone and will pay more for a taxi when they're travelling by themselves because they've heard stories of Uber drivers raping women and think that all the background checks and the like make taxis safer options. Now, over 99.99% of Uber rides are perfectly safe and they wouldn't get sexually assaulted but there's enough stories about it that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation.

If there is a similar sort of perception amongst male executives because they feel there are enough stories about false accusations that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation and that one-on-one time with senior leadership is a valuable thing for one's career, then the careers of female workers would be negatively impacted by not being able to participate in them.

I actually agree with you here, but it seems to me that the men DrZoidberg is referencing are being quite ridiculous in such a way that I highly suspect their real motives.

Your wife and her friends take the precaution for their personal safety to use a taxi for their transportation. They do not, however, block Uber drivers from working or advancing in their own careers.

As Toni said to DrZoidberg, no one needs to put themselves in a potentially compromising situation in order to mentor an upcoming employee. That they seem to claim they must, that it is all or nothing, is why I think they doth protest too much.