The glass ceiling is now made of concrete.

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

No surprise, it's like men often fear to help a child because of being afraid of being accused of being a pedophile.

 

[Toni]

I've long cautioned my husband about making certain to leave doors open when female students come to his office. Same thing for colleagues. #MeToo has made more people aware, but working in academia, this is an issue that one must keep in mind and make certain to be transparent and respectful at all times.

Different issue but some years ago, I worked with a lot of elementary age kids, and even coached on team of kids in a problem solving program. My policy was that parents could walk in at any time during meetings, without advance warning or even knocking. No one took me up on it, ever, but they all knew that I meant it.

Many years ago, as a college freshman, I received a slightly lower final grade for a course than I had hoped for. One poor test score (test was right after a serious personal trauma + a lot of family drama) took me off course for the A I was otherwise on course for. When I shared the slightly lower grade with friends, they urged me to contact the prof. I did and he invited me to his office to look over my scores and papers. I was all set to go when same friends urged me not to go: probably he had nefarious reasons for inviting me to visit him in his office. At that particular moment, it was a risk I didn't care to take and I declined and accepted the slightly lower grade. Here's the thing: At this point in my life, I regarded profs and teachers as being genderless. Male teachers were kind of like Ken dolls to me: blank from the waist down. This particular prof was personable,engaging, closer to my grandfather's age than my father's age----and probably as I realize now: gay. At the time, who, if anyone, he wanted to fuck never occurred to me to wonder. But the suggestion that he might try something, as improbable as it seemed even without thinking he was gay, was enough to make me decline to go speak with him. Honestly, I have no idea if he was gay, if he wasn't gay and was into freshman girls or if another look at my grades would have made any difference. I know it was very close--a couple of points off what I had hoped for. I didn't take the chance because at that moment in my life, finding out that this person I thought was trustworthy might not be trustworthy was a bigger risk than I was willing to take.

 

[thebeave]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

It's not just in the workplace. Men are less willing to perform CPR on women, due to fear of accusations of sexual assault:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/11/29/could-metoo-hurt-womens-health-care/#1853ca525e85

 

[Toni]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

It's not just in the workplace. Men are less willing to perform CPR on women, due to fear of accusations of sexual assault:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/11/29/could-metoo-hurt-womens-health-care/#1853ca525e85

I would like to state that I have taken multiple CPR courses and at one time was certified to train CPR.

First of all, it is the instructor's job to help students in any CPR course to know how to deal with serious situations and to overcome any potential embarrassment over touching a stranger in a fairly intimate (if non-sexual) manner. As the linked article mentions, it could be wise to include statements that appropriate CPR cannot be mistaken for sexual assault to allay any fears. Or 'fears.' I don't really think this is an actual fear so much as it is an excuse--and a push back. But that's my $0.02 opinion, based on: my opinion.

Many males state fear of harming a female in many circumstances, not just re: CPR. The risk of actually harming someone while performing CPR is real, whether the person being aided is male or female, adult or child. Obviously, children and elderly persons are at a higher risk of injury. Anyone who is the recipient of someone who is not trained or is poorly trained in CPR is at high risk for broken ribs. However, broken ribs are far preferable to death. Students are taught proper technique to minimize the risk of injury but are also told that injury is likely. Period. On a football player: injury is likely. Beats the hell out of dying of cardiac arrest, though.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Regardless of how many careers are actually lost unfairly, though, the topic of the thread has to do with the perception of whether someone is risking their career by being alone with a woman or taking one on as a mentor. As a related example, my wife and her friends will not use Uber alone and will pay more for a taxi when they're travelling by themselves because they've heard stories of Uber drivers raping women and think that all the background checks and the like make taxis safer options. Now, over 99.99% of Uber rides are perfectly safe and they wouldn't get sexually assaulted but there's enough stories about it that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation.

If there is a similar sort of perception amongst male executives because they feel there are enough stories about false accusations that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation and that one-on-one time with senior leadership is a valuable thing for one's career, then the careers of female workers would be negatively impacted by not being able to participate in them.

I actually agree with you here, but it seems to me that the men DrZoidberg is referencing are being quite ridiculous in such a way that I highly suspect their real motives.

Why ridiculous? Why suspect? Mentoring is a free service they provide out of the goodness of their hearts. Simply because they want to help young people. Why would they accept any risk no matter how small? Just think about the incentives here.

Your wife and her friends take the precaution for their personal safety to use a taxi for their transportation. They do not, however, block Uber drivers from working or advancing in their own careers.

That's an odd comparison. Not being mentored is not being blocked in your career. Being mentored by someone high on the corporate ladder is a rare privilege. But a privilege that will rapidly speed up your climb to the top. Without mentoring you'll just need to do it the hard way. I did. But I still acknowledge the value of mentoring. My life and career would have been a lot easier if this did happen to me.

As Toni said to DrZoidberg, no one needs to put themselves in a potentially compromising situation in order to mentor an upcoming employee. That they seem to claim they must, that it is all or nothing, is why I think they doth protest too much.

How do you mean? Mentoring necessarily means spending a lot of time together in private. How is it even hypothetically possible?

 

[DrZoidberg]

In business mentoring isn't giving an adept some tips now and again in limited meetings. It means going out for dinner with clients, introducing them to everybody they know. It's going out drinking. It's pretty much like making the adept a part of the family. It's not just talking about work. It's more of a parent/child relationship. To succeed in business the key is networking. The adept gets introduced to the mentors network and made a part of it. It's part psychology. The mentor often acts as a kind of therapist. Any and all problems are brought up. Like I said, it's typically quite intimate.

Since the 70'ies feminists have worked hard to break into these inner circles, or what they were called, boys clubs. Today women are a natural part of business, on all levels and all parts of the corporate ladder. While under represented in comparison to men, they are there. #MeToo risks undoing all this work. I've been to plenty of these parties over the years. After #MeToo there's been less and less women at them, and they're turning back into boys clubs. I'm just reporting what I'm seeing. The only women allowed are women who they've known a long time and they know are "safe". Ie won't use fabricated sexual assaults as a weapon. I've also seen a rise in career women taking loud stances against feminism and increasing extreme conservatism. Even hailing Ayn Rand. I see this as a direct result of #MeToo. I see it as a strategy to remain to be allowed inside the inner circles.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Regardless of how many careers are actually lost unfairly, though, the topic of the thread has to do with the perception of whether someone is risking their career by being alone with a woman or taking one on as a mentor. As a related example, my wife and her friends will not use Uber alone and will pay more for a taxi when they're travelling by themselves because they've heard stories of Uber drivers raping women and think that all the background checks and the like make taxis safer options. Now, over 99.99% of Uber rides are perfectly safe and they wouldn't get sexually assaulted but there's enough stories about it that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation.

If there is a similar sort of perception amongst male executives because they feel there are enough stories about false accusations that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation and that one-on-one time with senior leadership is a valuable thing for one's career, then the careers of female workers would be negatively impacted by not being able to participate in them.

I actually agree with you here, but it seems to me that the men DrZoidberg is referencing are being quite ridiculous in such a way that I highly suspect their real motives.

Your wife and her friends take the precaution for their personal safety to use a taxi for their transportation. They do not, however, block Uber drivers from working or advancing in their own careers.

As Toni said to DrZoidberg, no one needs to put themselves in a potentially compromising situation in order to mentor an upcoming employee. That they seem to claim they must, that it is all or nothing, is why I think they doth protest too much.

But the motivations are essentially identical. The fact that Uber drives aren't really impacted and female workers are doesn't change what's leading to the behaviour. These people are worried about finding themselves in a bad situation which they don't feel they'd be able to deal with and therefore take steps to avoid this situation.

 

[Toni]

Regardless of how many careers are actually lost unfairly, though, the topic of the thread has to do with the perception of whether someone is risking their career by being alone with a woman or taking one on as a mentor. As a related example, my wife and her friends will not use Uber alone and will pay more for a taxi when they're travelling by themselves because they've heard stories of Uber drivers raping women and think that all the background checks and the like make taxis safer options. Now, over 99.99% of Uber rides are perfectly safe and they wouldn't get sexually assaulted but there's enough stories about it that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation.

If there is a similar sort of perception amongst male executives because they feel there are enough stories about false accusations that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation and that one-on-one time with senior leadership is a valuable thing for one's career, then the careers of female workers would be negatively impacted by not being able to participate in them.

I actually agree with you here, but it seems to me that the men DrZoidberg is referencing are being quite ridiculous in such a way that I highly suspect their real motives.

Your wife and her friends take the precaution for their personal safety to use a taxi for their transportation. They do not, however, block Uber drivers from working or advancing in their own careers.

As Toni said to DrZoidberg, no one needs to put themselves in a potentially compromising situation in order to mentor an upcoming employee. That they seem to claim they must, that it is all or nothing, is why I think they doth protest too much.

But the motivations are essentially identical. The fact that Uber drives aren't really impacted and female workers are doesn't change what's leading to the behaviour. These people are worried about finding themselves in a bad situation which they don't feel they'd be able to deal with and therefore take steps to avoid this situation.

Are you seriously equating the genuine fear women gave for their physical safety—backed up be millennia of experience and cultural reinforcement of those fears—with concern—sometimes legitimate and sometimes a convenient cover for reluctance to mentor female students or colleagues? Because I’m telling you right now that millions of good, decent men manage to mentor girls and women without being accursed of rape or harassment.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

...

 

[DrZoidberg]

But the motivations are essentially identical. The fact that Uber drives aren't really impacted and female workers are doesn't change what's leading to the behaviour. These people are worried about finding themselves in a bad situation which they don't feel they'd be able to deal with and therefore take steps to avoid this situation.

Are you seriously equating the genuine fear women gave for their physical safety—backed up be millennia of experience and cultural reinforcement of those fears—with concern—sometimes legitimate and sometimes a convenient cover for reluctance to mentor female students or colleagues? Because I’m telling you right now that millions of good, decent men manage to mentor girls and women without being accursed of rape or harassment.

Fear is fear. Why would it be any different? Nobody likes being afraid. If we can select a path without fear, we'll take it.

Your vision of mentoring is a laughable caricature. If normal men have to take precautions not to be seen as rapists then fuck everybody. That's ridiculous. Going out of my way to lift up women in society, just to be nice and for the sake of equality, isn't worth risking a career over. No sensible man worth having as a mentor would put up with it.

 

[RavenSky]

But the motivations are essentially identical. The fact that Uber drives aren't really impacted and female workers are doesn't change what's leading to the behaviour. These people are worried about finding themselves in a bad situation which they don't feel they'd be able to deal with and therefore take steps to avoid this situation.

Again, I agree; but it is the difference between the two situations that matters. Your wife and her friends are not harming the 99.99% of Uber drivers who are not dangerous with their precautions in light of the .01%.

Unfortunately, men who use #MeToo as an excuse not to mentor a percentage of their employees in a fair and equal manner are harming those women. If the men are genuinely worried about false accusations , they could very easily avoid it while still mentoring.

 

[Toni]

But the motivations are essentially identical. The fact that Uber drives aren't really impacted and female workers are doesn't change what's leading to the behaviour. These people are worried about finding themselves in a bad situation which they don't feel they'd be able to deal with and therefore take steps to avoid this situation.

Are you seriously equating the genuine fear women gave for their physical safety—backed up be millennia of experience and cultural reinforcement of those fears—with concern—sometimes legitimate and sometimes a convenient cover for reluctance to mentor female students or colleagues? Because I’m telling you right now that millions of good, decent men manage to mentor girls and women without being accursed of rape or harassment.

Fear is fear. Why would it be any different? Nobody likes being afraid. If we can select a path without fear, we'll take it.

Your vision of mentoring is a laughable caricature. If normal men have to take precautions not to be seen as rapists then fuck everybody. That's ridiculous. Going out of my way to lift up women in society, just to be nice and for the sake of equality, isn't worth risking a career over. No sensible man worth having as a mentor would put up with it.

Your version of life seems to be a sad caricature. I'm not sure what you think a 'normal' man is but I don't know any who have to take special precautions to not be seen as rapists--or to not rape anyone, either.

And wow that you think that mentoring a female is an act of charity rather than a good business practice to develop and promote all talented individuals regardless of their chromosomal array or genitalia. Speaks a lot about you as a person.

- - - Updated - - -

But the motivations are essentially identical. The fact that Uber drives aren't really impacted and female workers are doesn't change what's leading to the behaviour. These people are worried about finding themselves in a bad situation which they don't feel they'd be able to deal with and therefore take steps to avoid this situation.

Again, I agree; but it is the difference between the two situations that matters. Your wife and her friends are not harming the 99.99% of Uber drivers who are not dangerous with their precautions in light of the .01%.

Unfortunately, men who use #MeToo as an excuse not to mentor a percentage of their employees in a fair and equal manner are harming those women. If the men are genuinely worried about false accusations , they could very easily avoid it while still mentoring.

I'm also highly skeptical about how real the fear of false accusations is. It seems much more like a very convenient excuse. And also as based in fearing competition of the playing field were to be equal.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

Yeah, how dare women complain about sexual harassment and not expect to be punished for it? How dare women expect adult men to treat all people with dignity and respect and as equals? We need to just shut up about shit, bring the mens their coffee with smiles on our faces, and when we are being groped or worse, simply assume the blank look and think of England.

You'd almost think that women expect to be treated as....people or something.

You're just being dishonest now. The problem was never that women spoke out. That's the good thing about #MeToo. The problem is that it came with due process getting thrown out the window. That's the problem. But you already know this. I think you were misunderstanding me on purpose just to get to throw a justified indignant tantrum. Sorry... It crashed and burned. I didn't fall for it and I doubt anybody else did either

Yeah, our prisons are full of men falsely accused of sexual harassment.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Unfortunately, men who use #MeToo as an excuse not to mentor a percentage of their employees in a fair and equal manner are harming those women. If the men are genuinely worried about false accusations , they could very easily avoid it while still mentoring.

It's not an excuse, but rather an evaluation that the risk isn't worth it. There isn't a way to ensure there will be no false accusations.

 

[DrZoidberg]

And wow that you think that mentoring a female is an act of charity rather than a good business practice to develop and promote all talented individuals regardless of their chromosomal array or genitalia. Speaks a lot about you as a person.

I think we're talking about different things. I'm not talking about pairing up experienced employees with junior employees to speed up their skill learning. That's certainly part of it and necessary on the lower levels. But its the mentoring higher up the ladder that matters more.

Industry leaders, people like CEO's of companies look for young ambitious talent to boost their careers. It's a rare privilege given to extremely few people. Typically it's the sons or daughters of the already powerful. But now and again an extremely bright young person pops in out if nowhere and impresses the higher ups, and gets included into these exclusive inner circles.

It's important because it's these young mentored people who later become the new powerful elite. They're the people who staff our companies. So it matters.

And what you think they should be doing doesn't matter. Irs what they do that matters. We have a situation where sexual abuse witch hunts have become normalised. People respond to incentives. If people stop demanding evidence for sexual assault before punishing the men, women will be ejected from any place they are able to make accusations.

Also, think about what you are defending. You are defending witch hunts. Are you really cool with that? Don't you think that is a problem?

 

[Toni]

And wow that you think that mentoring a female is an act of charity rather than a good business practice to develop and promote all talented individuals regardless of their chromosomal array or genitalia. Speaks a lot about you as a person.

I think we're talking about different things. I'm not talking about pairing up experienced employees with junior employees to speed up their skill learning. That's certainly part of it and necessary on the lower levels. But its the mentoring higher up the ladder that matters more.

Industry leaders, people like CEO's of companies look for young ambitious talent to boost their careers. It's a rare privilege given to extremely few people. Typically it's the sons or daughters of the already powerful. But now and again an extremely bright young person pops in out if nowhere and impresses the higher ups, and gets included into these exclusive inner circles.

It's important because it's these young mentored people who later become the new powerful elite. They're the people who staff our companies. So it matters.

And what you think they should be doing doesn't matter. Irs what they do that matters. We have a situation where sexual abuse witch hunts have become normalised. People respond to incentives. If people stop demanding evidence for sexual assault before punishing the men, women will be ejected from any place they are able to make accusations.

Also, think about what you are defending. You are defending witch hunts. Are you really cool with that? Don't you think that is a problem?

Who is defending witch hunts? Who has said that there should be no investigation, no evidence? That's simply nonsense you are making up in your head.

I actually do know how mentoring works and how it differs from normal job training. Thanks for the mansplaination, though.

I also understand how excuses work and how the status quo works and how boys clubs, golf trips, etc. are used to foster a relationship between powerful men and the white men they wish to perhaps hand some of the reins over to. I understand very well that it is rare that powerful men use their position to proposition males that they wish to mentor or put them in untenable situations of cooperating or trying to avoid or ignoring demeaning language, harassment and attempts at sexual contact. Personally, I don't believe that men are babies who are incapable of managing to be alone with a woman without making her feel threatened or demeaned.

- - - Updated - - -

Unfortunately, men who use #MeToo as an excuse not to mentor a percentage of their employees in a fair and equal manner are harming those women. If the men are genuinely worried about false accusations , they could very easily avoid it while still mentoring.

It's not an excuse, but rather an evaluation that the risk isn't worth it. There isn't a way to ensure there will be no false accusations.

It's an excuse to continue to do things the same way they've always been done: boys will be boys and men will only mentor men and maintain the status quo.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Who is defending witch hunts? Who has said that there should be no investigation, no evidence? That's simply nonsense you are making up in your head.

The article is the result of that #MeToo has circumvented due process and that now any woman can take down any man (she's had some physical proximity to) she wishes by fabricating a sexual assault and making a public accusation. That's the current situation. We're only talking about fabricated sexual assaults. How the hell is a man supposed to protect himself against that other than to keep away from young women?

I actually do know how mentoring works and how it differs from normal job training.

Really? You don't seem to.

Personally, I don't believe that men are babies who are incapable of managing to be alone with a woman without making her feel threatened or demeaned.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

What has that got to do with it? Seriously? WTF are you talking about? Please explain how these last two sentences is relevant to:

1) ...the article.
2) ...anything I've said so far.

You are aware that a woman might say she has felt threatened by a man even when she hasn't been?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

But the motivations are essentially identical. The fact that Uber drives aren't really impacted and female workers are doesn't change what's leading to the behaviour. These people are worried about finding themselves in a bad situation which they don't feel they'd be able to deal with and therefore take steps to avoid this situation.

Again, I agree; but it is the difference between the two situations that matters. Your wife and her friends are not harming the 99.99% of Uber drivers who are not dangerous with their precautions in light of the .01%.

Unfortunately, men who use #MeToo as an excuse not to mentor a percentage of their employees in a fair and equal manner are harming those women. If the men are genuinely worried about false accusations , they could very easily avoid it while still mentoring.

But the difference is in the results to others, not in the perception of risk to themselves and that's what's important in this particular context. They could mentor a female employee and (think that they) expose themselves to these additional risks or they could mentor a male employee and not do so and they don't have some kind of social obligation to expose themselves to (what they feel is) unnecessary risk. If this mentoring is a valuable career tool, then this perception of risk brought about by the #MeToo movement creates a barrier in the careers of the women affected.

 

[ruby sparks]

.... it is the difference between the two situations that matters.

Or, maybe it's the similarity that matters.

Depends what point someone is making I suppose.

Your wife and her friends are not harming the 99.99% of Uber drivers who are not dangerous with their precautions in light of the .01%.

Ok but how many women are doing similar?

If I had to guess I'd say there are possibly more women whose careers are adversely affected by the OP thing (imo an over-reaction by some men) than there are male taxi drivers losing out on earnings.

But I don't really know.

But as Tom says, part of the problem here is perceptions, and those can have a wider effect than actual risks deserve. I say 'part of the problem' because I think another part is that for things like the OP, some men just resisting change they don't like.

Unfortunately, men who use #MeToo as an excuse not to mentor a percentage of their employees in a fair and equal manner are harming those women. If the men are genuinely worried about false accusations , they could very easily avoid it while still mentoring.

Yeah.

Plus, if a pattern emerges of mentoring being provided on a gender basis, there'll be trouble of a different kind, cases being taken for sex-discrimination.

 

[ruby sparks]

I am not as familiar with Sweden, but I can tell from the US where metoo began, that there is not some egregious onslaught against men going on. As Tom said, there could be a perception that there is even if false, and that is a risk of speaking out of course, but it doesn't make it wrong to speak out, any more than a wrongful conviction means we should abolish the justice system. Even that there are false accusations, it doesn't make metoo a harmful movement on balance. There is no comparison as I see it to any harm being done to the accused, compared to the harm done to the accusers for ages and still ongoing. It's like that saying, "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."

That's the thing. Do I think that PC and #metoo go too far at times? Yes. Ditto for asking if the perception that they go too far causes some problems in turn. But no one is counting up to see what the balance is. Theoretically (and I accept it's probably impossible to do in practice) we should be adding up, on the one side, the amount of adverse behaviours and outcomes from what I'm going to loosely and non-pejoratively call PC (of which #metoo might be considered a subset) and on the other the amount of benefits.

On the first side might go things like men not wanting to do CPR on an injured woman, or not wanting to help a lost child, or not mentoring women, etc etc, and also actual outcomes such as when false accusations (or even just too much PC) damage someone's life. We might also include things like free speech being curtailed or censored, and I'm not just talking about flirting or come ons, but the sort of barriers to diverse opinions that seem to be unofficially set up in some universities and workplaces.

On the other side might go the not quite so headline-grabbing or obvious things like women feeling their concerns are at last being taken seriously, including perhaps an actual increase in their exercise of free speech, plus of course (hopefully) a lot of men quietly and without too much fuss changing their attitudes and behaviours for the better. And quite possibly in actual terms there is less harassment and assault. But then things that don't happen don't get in the news so easily.