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For Christians:If god exists why must you prove it?

If you believe god exists and have faith in an afterlife, why must you prove it and why get hostile to those who reject it?

When was the last time a Christian proved to you that God exists?
Trust me on this. Christians don't have to do that.

Proved to himself, not me which is part of my point. Christian evangelism is more about popping up one's own faith tjhan convincing someone else/

I was having a conversation with a Christian on evolution. He pointed out the window and said look, it is obvious hod created everything.
 
I'd forgotten that passage. Close the door, pray in private, don't wear your faith on your sleees.

A good argument with evangelicals.
 
But like so many other things, there are also Biblical passages commanding believers spread the gospel far and wide. Both positions can be supported Biblically, so it's up to believers to pick and choose, and act according to their conscience.

I've been "witnessed to" by countless Christians, but never once by a Jew or a Muslim.
 
But like so many other things, there are also Biblical passages commanding believers spread the gospel far and wide. Both positions can be supported Biblically, so it's up to believers to pick and choose, and act according to their conscience.

I've been "witnessed to" by countless Christians, but never once by a Jew or a Muslim.

Is that something indicative of the religion or just an artifact of there being far more Christians than other religions in the US?

I mean, does Israel have people walking around handing out Old Testament tracts? Do people in Saudi Arabia give out pamphlets with a big blank space on the front where Mo's picture would be?
 
If you believe god exists and have faith in an afterlife, why must you prove it and why get hostile to those who reject it?

When was the last time a Christian proved to you that God exists?
Trust me on this. Christians don't have to do that.

Proved to himself, not me which is part of my point. Christian evangelism is more about popping up one's own faith tjhan convincing someone else/

I was having a conversation with a Christian on evolution. He pointed out the window and said look, it is obvious hod created everything.

That's when you reach into your pocket and pull out a couple coins. "Look, I'm a billionaire. Where else did that money come from? What? You don't believe me?"
 
No child is born believing in Santa and a Tooth Fairy.

I agree (depending on later in life with particular types of parents as Tom's post highlights) they're not born "knowing" the meaning of "naturalism" either.

Naturalism doesn't have a 'meaning'. Accepting that 'only that which can be detected exists' doesn't imply any compulsion to behave in a particular way, nor does it help anyone to understand the details of how any of the stuff we detect behaves.

Naturalism is simply the rejection of unsubstantiated and unsupportable claims for the existence of things we cannot detect.

Indeed, supernaturalism is a doomed philosophical stance - if any evidence existed for a supernatural entity, it would immediately be subject to the possibility of testing, study, and understanding, and would thereby become part of the natural world.

The very concept that a philosophical position such as naturalism must contain 'meaning' is nonsensical. Stuff exists. We can find out some things about that stuff, but there's also lots we haven't yet found out. What 'meaning' does this statement imply? How does it help me to live a better life? It's a foundation, not an edifice.

To suggest that naturalism implies meaning is to suggest that a foundation implies a roof. If you just have the foundations of your house, you are going to get wet when it rains.

Children are born with senses, and an imagination. In the absence of authority figures demanding that they give excessive credence to the imaginary, they quickly learn the difference between the two - The imaginary can be distinguished from the real, because reality is the same for everyone, while the imaginary varies from person to person; And reality doesn't go away if you stop believing in it.

Gravity is the same in England, America, Japan, India and China. Objects behave according to the laws of Physics and Chemistry in exactly the same ways in all of these places. But religions are different for different groups. And over wider geographical distances, they are very different indeed. This is a predictable and expected result if religions are imaginary. But if any religious claim was not imaginary, but was instead real, we would predict that this 'truth' would be discovered independently by widely separated populations. The Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, Chinese, Indians and Japanese should, if there is any reality in religion, have very similar or even identical religious beliefs. Just as they all have a very similar understanding of what will happen if you drop a heavy rock while your foot is under it, they would have a similar understanding of how to communicate with the gods; How many gods there are; What the gods want us to do; and what the results of obedience or disobedience to these desires will be.

Each religion is, unavoidably, an hypothesis. It entails predictions that are testable. And we find that these tests invariably show the predictions to be wrong. An honest response would be to discard the hypothesis, or to modify it to fit the observed facts. A religious response is to engage in logical fallacies and the making of weak excuses for the abject failure of their gods to behave as they were claimed to; And to ensure that their claims are difficult or impossible to falsify. Both are intellectual dishonesty.

Basically, the stuff that people have strong opinions about, that are agreed upon by widely separated populations (such as the results of dropping rocks), we can conclude is likely to be true. The stuff that people have strong opinions about, that are not agreed upon by widely separated populations (such as religious tenets) we can conclude is likely to be false. The reason that religious beliefs persist is solely that most people grow up in communities where disagreement is rare, and where they are deliberately protected from those ideas that conflict with the ideas of their community. This is most obvious where two or more communities share a geographic region - for example, in Northern Ireland, Protestants and Catholics ensure that their children attend different schools, they are discouraged from playing together, and the 'other' is portrayed as dangerous at worst, and sadly deluded at best. If either side were truly confident in the idea that children are born with an innate understanding of the truth of their religion, they would have no fear or hesitation in allowing their children to mix, as the expected outcome would be that the children who are mistaken would quickly learn from those who are not.

Everything about the behaviour of religious people strongly indicates that none of them are correct. Ideas that are correct get accepted by everyone very fast. Relativity overtook Newtonian Physics worldwide in just a few decades. Quantum theory supplanted Classical Physics in just a few decades. Ideas that are true and correct rapidly supplant those that are false or wrong. Religions have had thousands of years, and yet are still geographically defined. How could that be? How is it that the hundreds of religions in the world today, and the thousands that have existed through history, have not been supplanted by the one religion that is closest to the truth? That's what happens to ideas in every other field of human thought.
 
So, your "compromise" is that you still define atheism as a positive choice, thus denying its application to describe babies (which seems an important point to you), ANDdenying the inputs of more than one atheist in this thread.

How is that a compromise? That's just you trying to rephrase your own premise as if you're changing your point. But you're not.

Especially since the 'agnostic' definition you seem to be using is the common one, where one finds both sides of the argument compelling and cannot decide between them. Wouldn't that require the baby to actually understand the arguments for and against the existance of gods?
"doesn't know" is not actually a useful definition of agnosticism. Being unable to make a choice is different than not having sufficient grasp to even possible make a choice...

Thats my previous point.. A baby doesn't understand (was joking about agnostics)) . Is there a "common" mentioning or understanding in any literature around the world that uses the phrase "born atheist babies" in normal dialogue or other public or historical writings?

But hey Its the definition the threads insists on by atheists, so I like to concede.
 
Learner, you are desperate to claim we “rejected” God, aren’t you? You are unable to cope with the fact that there are people who didn’t make a choice, but who merely never met your god.

I think that’s why you won’t answer this question, even though I brought it to your attention 4 times now.


Because you are desperate to believe that your god is knowable.

You’re never going to answer this question, are you?

Did you bring this up 4 times? I may have overlooked it but thank for bringing up. (I've noticed now)

The only one that seems desperate here is erm.. not me.


So Learner, which of these statements is true, then?

  1. Have I "decided" to not be a witness?
  2. Have I made a "choice" to not be a witness?
  3. Did I "make up my mind" to not be a witness?
  4. I am not a witness. I didn't see anything. Fact followed by fact.

Atheism... a-theism... means without gods.
We were born that way and some of us remain that way - having never ever seen any evidence for a god, and therefore being completely unable to suppose one exists.

Number 4. What made you "think" this was "fact"? Logic wasn't it?

Atheism then is a technical term rather than philosophy perhaps. So.... all animals are born atheists ,if I'm not mistaken. Could go with that.
 
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No child is born believing in Santa and a Tooth Fairy.

I agree (depending on later in life with particular types of parents as Tom's post highlights) they're not born "knowing" the meaning of "naturalism" either.

Naturalism doesn't have a 'meaning'. Accepting that 'only that which can be detected exists' doesn't imply any compulsion to behave in a particular way, nor does it help anyone to understand the details of how any of the stuff we detect behaves.

Naturalism is simply the rejection of unsubstantiated and unsupportable claims for the existence of things we cannot detect.

Ah... ok I get it now. So thats "what it means!"


(commendations for effort put in the rest of post)
 
Naturalism doesn't have a 'meaning'. Accepting that 'only that which can be detected exists' doesn't imply any compulsion to behave in a particular way, nor does it help anyone to understand the details of how any of the stuff we detect behaves.

Naturalism is simply the rejection of unsubstantiated and unsupportable claims for the existence of things we cannot detect.

Ah... ok I get it now. So thats "what it means!"


(commendations for effort put in the rest of post)

Meaning entails more than a rejection of ideas.

Otherwise the more detailed the nonsense is, the more meaningful it is to simply reject it. Which is insane.
 
I think your algorithm has a glitch.
Do you think people are born atheists or not born atheists?


I hadn't slept well for a few days (rushing about organising things) so may have sounded a little deliriously glitchy .

I'd like to say born with the "image of God" built-in i.e. "born theist" but I don't think that will go well with this discussion.

What's the image of God? Like an inbuilt orgasm? It think most life forms have something like that in them.
 
What is this thing that people call "God?'' Each religion has its own version and it seems like each and every believer has their own cherished version.....if the Universe is strange, how much stranger is the idea of 'God?'
 
(Side note: Why is the past tense of preach 'preached', but the past tense of teach isn't 'teached'?)

I was teached that Preach comes from Latin. Teach does not. So, having different origins, I guess, makes for different rules.
 
What is this thing that people call "God?'' Each religion has its own version and it seems like each and every believer has their own cherished version.....if the Universe is strange, how much stranger is the idea of 'God?'

I'll take that as a rhetorical question. The obvious answer is that each person is his own god, idealized with superhuman powers so that said person can have and do whatever that person wants.
 
What is this thing that people call "God?'

Just use the atheist definition.

The reason that the atheist definition is so vague is because when we ask ten different Christians what they mean by God, we get twelve different answers, so it's impossible to nail down WTF anyone is talking about.

The one thing that can be agreed on, however, is that whatever the fuck it is people are referencing when using that word, it's really kind of stupid.
 
You’d think if there were an actual god who actually communicated, the christians would all be acquainted with the same one as each other.
 
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