The Sordid Tale Of Cyntoia Brown

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm sorry if the thought that prostitutes might not actually be prostitutes because they enjoy sex with random creeps upsets you. I’m sorry if you must consider that prostitutes work for the money and would prefer the money with no sex.

I’m sorry if it upsets you that sometimes girls and women fight back.

Once again, you've exposed your sexism. Your argument only makes sense if all men are the enemy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm sure you find it upsetting that she preferred to steal than to engage in sexual activity with random strangers, especially since she was unable to legally give consent to sexual activity.

If her procedure was to rob clients rather than have sex with them then how was she a victim?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

He likely didn't even know she was under 18.

Derec, let's say you meet a young looking sex slave that her pimp introduced you to. Wouldn't you ask for identification?

 

[Toni]

I'm sorry if the thought that prostitutes might not actually be prostitutes because they enjoy sex with random creeps upsets you. I’m sorry if you must consider that prostitutes work for the money and would prefer the money with no sex.

I’m sorry if it upsets you that sometimes girls and women fight back.

Once again, you've exposed your sexism. Your argument only makes sense if all men are the enemy.

Excuse me? I’m not the one who believes that all—or most men believe that men are owed sex from minors.

God knows I’m not so delusional to believe that most prostitutes actually enjoy having sex with random strangers.

 

[Toni]

I'm sure you find it upsetting that she preferred to steal than to engage in sexual activity with random strangers, especially since she was unable to legally give consent to sexual activity.

If her procedure was to rob clients rather than have sex with them then how was she a victim?

What kind of sexist pig seriously disagrees with my assertion that most prodtitutes would just take the money without the sex if they had the chance?

She was forced to prostitute herself; she was the victim of physical, emotional and sexual violence at the hands of her pimp who demanded she bring cash, and was the victim of physical, sexual and emotional abuse before she ran away from home. Since she was a minor, she was a rape victim every single time a trick had sex with her. It is hard to feel sorry for those she robbed in preference to servicing them/bring raped by them.

Seriously, Loren: if your choice was to blow some guy or take it up the ass—or rob him, which would you choose? I would bet that almost anyone posting on this forum would rob a guy rather than blow him—including you and Derec.

I am making zero judgments about those who would prefer to engage in sexual with random strangers. Personally, I’d rather rob the guy if those were my choices but I realize some people are into anonymous sex with men who determine what goes where.

I’m just saying what should be absolutely obvious to anyone with a functioning brain: most teenage girls do not want to have sex with random middle aged or older men.

 

[RVonse]

It is fascinating to watch the double standard here. When there is only one witness to a killing in such a situation, and that one witness is a police officer or some white guy and the victim is person of color with a criminal record, there are plenty of people here who will accept the killer's version verbatim. However, when the killer has a criminal recor, those same people will disregard the killer's story completely and accept "likelihoods" rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt".

You are absolutely right laughing dog. The testimony of a cop (who would not even be a cop if he had a record) is much better in court than the testimony of an individual who has been in trouble with the law all their life. I'm not completely sure it is fair or just but it is very much the way the court system works today. I guess in the majority of instances, it would make sense to trust the testimony of a cop over a past and known criminal even though cops can lie and do tell lies just like everyone else. But it is indeed a double standard.

 

[ruby sparks]

I have not seen the shyster's claim elsewhere, although it is certainly something a Saul Goodmanesque lawyer would lie about to help his client. However, the opinion that she is intelligent is shared by a law professor whose college class Cyntoia took while in prison.

Cyntoia Brown could be a gifted litigator, professor Preston Shipp thought, as he discussed the moving parts of the criminal justice system with his 30 students. Inquisitive, engaged, able to parse a legal principle and trace its lineage, the 21-year-old Brown was unlike anyone he'd ever taught.
It wasn't just that she wrung every nugget of knowledge she could from her professor. It was her active, searching mind. Whenever Shipp played devil's advocate supporting the prevailing model of mass incarceration, Cyntoia was the one student he could count on to pick holes in his argument. That set her apart from his students at Lipscomb University, undergrads whose attendance at chapel and Bible study is mandatory.

Life Begins at Sixteen

Reading everything I've so far read about her, which is not enough to make a fully-informed judgement, obviously, my guess would be that she's not low IQ, that she may even be highly intelligent, but that she may have something which might be called a borderline personality 'disorder' (whether medical or not) of some sort, perhaps owing to what appears to have been a very unfortunate upbringing. As such, I think she deserves some sympathy, even if only on the basis of 'there but for the grace of Dawkins go I', in other words on the basis of asking who among us can condemn her or know what we would be like if we had gone through the same things and ended up in her teenage shoes. She certainly doesn't deserve any more sympathy in general terms than a teenage boy, of any skin colour, who went through something similar of course, except inasmuch as to acknowledge that certain issues and circumstances can often affect different sexes and people of different skin colour in different ways in different societies.

I agree that some people here are maybe bending over in a backwards direction to give her even more sympathy than she deserves, imo, partly because she's non-white and partly because she's female. Also, a few are clearly having a bit of trouble sympathising with the murdered man, apparently on the basis that he used prostitutes, which (response) I don't much agree with either.

 

[laughing dog]

I'm sorry if the thought that prostitutes might not actually be prostitutes because they enjoy sex with random creeps upsets you. I’m sorry if you must consider that prostitutes work for the money and would prefer the money with no sex.

I’m sorry if it upsets you that sometimes girls and women fight back.

Once again, you've exposed your sexism. Your argument only makes sense if all men are the enemy.

No, it does not. It is based on the observations (true or not) that
1) prostitutes do not necessarily enjoy sex with their johns, and
2)teenage girls do not usually choose to have sex with middle aged men.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sure you find it upsetting that she preferred to steal than to engage in sexual activity with random strangers, especially since she was unable to legally give consent to sexual activity.

If her procedure was to rob clients rather than have sex with them then how was she a victim?

First, there is no evidence that Ms. Brown had a procedure to rob johns. Second, victims of multiple crimes and abuse can still engage in crime.

 

[Toni]

I have not seen the shyster's claim elsewhere, although it is certainly something a Saul Goodmanesque lawyer would lie about to help his client. However, the opinion that she is intelligent is shared by a law professor whose college class Cyntoia took while in prison.

Cyntoia Brown could be a gifted litigator, professor Preston Shipp thought, as he discussed the moving parts of the criminal justice system with his 30 students. Inquisitive, engaged, able to parse a legal principle and trace its lineage, the 21-year-old Brown was unlike anyone he'd ever taught.
It wasn't just that she wrung every nugget of knowledge she could from her professor. It was her active, searching mind. Whenever Shipp played devil's advocate supporting the prevailing model of mass incarceration, Cyntoia was the one student he could count on to pick holes in his argument. That set her apart from his students at Lipscomb University, undergrads whose attendance at chapel and Bible study is mandatory.

Life Begins at Sixteen

Reading everything I've so far read about her, which is not enough to make a fully-informed judgement, obviously, my guess would be that she's not low IQ, that she may even be highly intelligent, but that she may have something which might be called a borderline personality 'disorder' (whether medical or not) of some sort, perhaps owing to what appears to have been a very unfortunate upbringing. As such, I think she deserves some sympathy, even if only on the basis of 'there but for the grace of Dawkins go I', in other words on the basis of asking who among us can condemn her or know what we would be like if we had gone through the same things and ended up in her teenage shoes. She certainly doesn't deserve any more sympathy in general terms than a teenage boy, of any skin colour, who went through something similar of course, except inasmuch as to acknowledge that certain issues and circumstances can often affect different sexes and people of different skin colour in different ways in different societies.

I agree that some people here are maybe bending over in a backwards direction to give her even more sympathy than she deserves, imo, partly because she's non-white and partly because she's female. Also, a few are clearly having a bit of trouble sympathising with the murdered man, apparently on the basis that he used prostitutes, which (response) I don't much agree with either.

I feel a lot of sympathy for Cyntonia Brown because she was abused her entire life, including being sexually abused by people who were supposed to care for her and protect her. Gender and race do not factor into this. I feel a great deal of sympathy for Cyntonia Brown because she fled her 'home' and lived with a pimp who continued to use her, physically, sexually and emotionally abuse her and turn her out to trick to bring him home money. Gender and race do not factor into this. I feel a great deal of sympathy for Cyntonia Brown for preferring to steal rather than have sex with random strangers trolling the streets for young hookers. Gender and race do not factor into this. I feel a great deal of sympathy for Cyntonia Brown fearing for her life. Gender and race do not factor into this.

I do have some trouble sympathizing or empathizing with a 43 year old man who picked up an underaged hooker, and who previously creeped out waitresses enough by his behavior that they tried to avoid waiting on him and who has been accused of raping at least one other woman. Sex and race have nothing to do with that either.

Cyntonia Brown had a terrible life,filled with abuse, violence and betrayal at the hands of those who were charged with loving her, providing for her and protecting her. This is sadly the story of too many children, who, like Cyntonia Brown, often flee their homes, seeking relief from the abuse and who often end up turning tricks on streets in order to survive.

I feel the same sympathy for white teen prostitutes or male teen prostitutes or white male teen prostitutes. They did not end up turning tricks on street corners or in Sonic parking lots or being peddled on Backpage because this was their dream career. They all have my sympathy.

I don't really know what drives adult men to the streets trolling for anonymous sex from teenage runaways (male or female). Possibly they deserve much more sympathy than I have for them. Their race and gender have nothing to do with the sympathy I do or do not feel for them.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't really know what drives adult men to the streets trolling for anonymous sex from teenage runaways (male or female). Possibly they deserve much more sympathy than I have for them. Their race and gender have nothing to do with the sympathy I do or do not feel for them.

Well, regardless of how unsympathetic they are or how few shits anybody gives about their being dead, it is still a crime to shoot them in the back of the head, steal their stuff and then lie to the police about it. Not to mention that if he picked her up on a corner, she was also loitering and there's a decent chance that there was some jaywalking involved. She deserved a prison term for what she did.

Fifteen years is past the upper limit of what she deserved, given the extenuating circumstances, but she is still a murderer.

 

[Toni]

I don't really know what drives adult men to the streets trolling for anonymous sex from teenage runaways (male or female). Possibly they deserve much more sympathy than I have for them. Their race and gender have nothing to do with the sympathy I do or do not feel for them.

Well, regardless of how unsympathetic they are or how few shits anybody gives about their being dead, it is still a crime to shoot them in the back of the head, steal their stuff and then lie to the police about it. Not to mention that if he picked her up on a corner, she was also loitering and there's a decent chance that there was some jaywalking involved. She deserved a prison term for what she did.

Fifteen years is past the upper limit of what she deserved, given the extenuating circumstances, but she is still a murderer.

I’m not entirely sure that she committed murder. I think that she had reason to fear for her life. Prostitutes are much more frequently the victims of violence including murder than are johns. He had quite an arsenal under his bed. Odds were much more likely that she would have ended up dead—and we would have never heard about it.

I don’t think he ‘deserved’ to be killed. I can see why she may have felt she didn’t have a choice.

I think we both can agree that she has paid her debt to society. Especially given the circumstances and her youth.

 

[ruby sparks]

I’m not entirely sure that she committed murder.

I'm not entirely sure the back of your head isn't getting fairly close to the floor.

 

[Derec]

I’m not entirely sure that she committed murder.

She most definitely committed murder. Which is why it is wrong to let her out after a mere 16 years. 16 year old boys get life for murder. So should 16 year old girls.

I think that she had reason to fear for her life.

From a guy that was asleep? And what about the robbery? If it was self-defense, why did she steal a bunch of stuff?

Prostitutes are much more frequently the victims of violence including murder than are johns.

That may be true, but does not mean that there aren't murderous prostitutes. Or women who pretend to be prostitutes in order to rob people, like Cyntoia was doing.

He had quite an arsenal under his bed.

Where does it say that he had any weapons, much less an "arsenal", under his bed? Now you are just making up stuff in order to defend a cold-blooded murderer!

Odds were much more likely that she would have ended up dead—and we would have never heard about it.

BS. Read the letter by the lead investigator. She is a bad seed and eventually she graduated to murder. She is a smart sociopath who is manipulating people, including you.

I don’t think he ‘deserved’ to be killed. I can see why she may have felt she didn’t have a choice.

BS. The evidence suggests he was likely asleep. This was murder, and she definitely had a choice.

I think we both can agree that she has paid her debt to society. Especially given the circumstances and her youth.

No, she has not. Not by a long shot. 16 year old boys who murder are also not let out after 15 years.

 

[Derec]

Derec, let's say you meet a young looking sex slave that her pimp introduced you to. Wouldn't you ask for identification?

1. Cyntoia was most likely not a "sex slave". Her age alone certainly does not automatically make her a "sex slave" because 16 year olds still have agency.
2. I don't deal with "sex slaves".
3. Cut-throat did not introduce Cyntoia to anybody. She was by herself when her victim picked her up.
4. There are fake IDs. Are you familiar with Tracy Lords? Do you also think she was a "sex slave" or something?

 

[Derec]

Excuse me? I’m not the one who believes that all—or most men believe that men are owed sex from minors.

Nobody is saying that. I am saying that just because she was under 18 does not mean that she did not choose to do all the things she did.
Do you also think Tracy Lords was a "sex slave", "trafficking victim" etc. just because she was underage when she chose to enter porn industry with a fake id?

God knows I’m not so delusional to believe that most prostitutes actually enjoy having sex with random strangers.

So that makes it ok to rob and murder their would-be clients?
Again, I am sure most plumbers do not enjoy cleaning out drain lines in homes of random strangers either. What does that have to do with anything?

 

[laughing dog]

She most definitely committed murder. Which is why it is wrong to let her out after a mere 16 years. 16 year old boys get life for murder. So should 16 year old girls.

Do you have any evidence that all 16 year old boys get life for murder?

No, she has not. Not by a long shot. 16 year old boys who murder are also not let out after 15 years.

Even if they are tried as minors?

 

[Derec]

What kind of sexist pig seriously disagrees with my assertion that most prodtitutes would just take the money without the sex if they had the chance?

It's sexist to suggest that it is somehow right for them to rob their clients instead of providing the agreed upon service for the agreed upon price.
Most plumbers are men, but it is not sexist to say that plumbers would rather just take the money without cleaning out the drain line if they had the chance. So does that make it of for your plumber to rob you? And perhaps even murder you?

She was forced to prostitute herself; she was the victim of physical, emotional and sexual violence at the hands of her pimp who demanded she bring cash, and was the victim of physical, sexual and emotional abuse before she ran away from home.

Highly questionable and based solely on self-serving statements by a sociopath.

Since she was a minor, she was a rape victim every single time a trick had sex with her.

No, she wasn't. You are equating real rape with mutually voluntary sex where one of the participants is below an arbitrary age cutoff and the other is probably not even aware of the fact.

It is hard to feel sorry for those she robbed in preference to servicing them/bring raped by them.

If she advertises for sexual services by walking the stroll, how is she a "rape victim" if people then have sex with her?
I happen to think those under 18 should not engage in sex work, but at the same time, it is not rape. And it does not make robbery morally acceptable, much less murder.

Seriously, Loren: if your choice was to blow some guy or take it up the ass—or rob him, which would you choose?

But those are not the only two choices. She could have gotten a job at McDonalds - they legally hire 16 year olds, but you make far less than by robbing people.
And if one of her victims had killed her while she tried robbing him, that would have been self-defense, not she murdering her victim in process of robbing him.

I would bet that almost anyone posting on this forum would rob a guy rather than blow him—including you and Derec.

Your perverse defending of robbery is getting more and more ridiculous.

I am making zero judgments about those who would prefer to engage in sexual with random strangers. Personally, I’d rather rob the guy if those were my choices but I realize some people are into anonymous sex with men who determine what goes where.

I absolutely make judgments of people who prefer to rob people, male or female.

I’m just saying what should be absolutely obvious to anyone with a functioning brain: most teenage girls do not want to have sex with random middle aged or older men.

Sure, but some might choose to. And if you don't want to have sex with strangers, don't walk the stroll and then rob people, pretending that those are the only two options.

 

[Derec]

Do you have any evidence that all 16 year old boys get life for murder?

Do you have any evidence they don't? In any case, Cyntoia was duly convicted and sentenced and the appeals court said that she should serve at least 50 years. This commutation is purely political.

Even if they are tried as minors?

16 year olds who murder are not usually tried as minors. Not in the US.

 

[Derec]

No, it does not. It is based on the observations (true or not) that
1) prostitutes do not necessarily enjoy sex with their johns, and
2)teenage girls do not usually choose to have sex with middle aged men.

How is that at all relevant to anything?

First, there is no evidence that Ms. Brown had a procedure to rob johns.

It has been reported in articles about her.

Second, victims of multiple crimes and abuse can still engage in crime.

Who is denying that? You are knocking down straw men.

 

[Derec]

I feel a lot of sympathy for Cyntonia Brown because she was abused her entire life, including being sexually abused by people who were supposed to care for her and protect her.

She accused her stepfather of raping her, but recanted. That happened after she stole jewelry at 12 and around that same age attacked both her classmates and teachers physically.
You see her as a rape victim based on nothing but this recanted accusation. I think it is more likely that her manipulative/sociopathic nature started to surface even then.
By the way, she still maintains the rape never happened. And yet you treat it as a fact.

Gender and race do not factor into this.

I think they do very much.

I feel a great deal of sympathy for Cyntonia Brown because she fled her 'home' and lived with a pimp who continued to use her, physically, sexually and emotionally abuse her and turn her out to trick to bring him home money.

I think Cut-Throat was her boyfriend and crime partner rather than abuser. Sure, she claims otherwise, but is that because it is true or because it paints her as a victim? Just like her lawyer's claim that she has "low IQ" when the exact opposite is true? I think she is lying. CT giving her his gun shows a degree of trust. And the witness statements who were with them after the murder indicate a partner-like relationship between the two.

I feel a great deal of sympathy for Cyntonia Brown for preferring to steal rather than have sex with random strangers trolling the streets for young hookers.

I do not. Sex work is honorable because it is predicted on voluntary exchange of money for services. Just like plumbing. Thieving and robbing are not. Neither is murder.

I feel a great deal of sympathy for Cyntonia Brown fearing for her life.

Evidence does not suggest she "feared for her life". Evidence suggests she acted with malice aforethought.

I do have some trouble sympathizing or empathizing with a 43 year old man who picked up an underaged hooker,

Do you have any evidence that he knew she was underage?

and who previously creeped out waitresses enough by his behavior that they tried to avoid waiting on him

So some waitresses did not like him. Obviously he deserved to die.

]and who has been accused of raping at least one other woman.

But not convicted of it. Cyntoia has been convicted of first degree murder, which you dismiss in favor of your "feared for her life" scenario, and yet you give much credence to unsubstantiated allegations against the murder victim.

Cyntonia Brown had a terrible life,filled with abuse, violence and betrayal at the hands of those who were charged with loving her, providing for her and protecting her. This is sadly the story of too many children, who, like Cyntonia Brown, often flee their homes, seeking relief from the abuse and who often end up turning tricks on streets in order to survive.

She had a messed up childhood, yes. But she did plenty to make it worse. Nobody forced her to steal jewelry, or to attack schoolmates, or to attack teachers, or to falsely accuse her father of rape.

I feel the same sympathy for white teen prostitutes or male teen prostitutes or white male teen prostitutes. They did not end up turning tricks on street corners or in Sonic parking lots or being peddled on Backpage because this was their dream career. They all have my sympathy.

I am sure the plumber who cleaned all the shit out of your drain line last time it was clogged did not think that is his dream career either. Should he have robbed you instead?

I don't really know what drives adult men to the streets trolling for anonymous sex from teenage runaways (male or female). Possibly they deserve much more sympathy than I have for them. Their race and gender have nothing to do with the sympathy I do or do not feel for them.

I doubt that very much. Also, you assume he was specifically looking for runaways. What evidence do you have of that?