The Sordid Tale Of Cyntoia Brown

[Toni]

That stems from puritanism inherent in US society to treat barely underage sex as rape.
However, law does not always reflect reality. If some law were passed that defined underage drinking as "statutory force-feeding of alcohol" that would still not mean that, in reality, selling alcohol to a 19 year old was the same as force-feeding alcohol to that person against their will.


Her profit really. Also, she wasn't raped, she robbed people.

Her choice was to have sex with strangers for cash she would bring home to her pimp or to rob the johns for cash she would bring home to her pimp. Her pimp was a violent guy who died a violent death.

That does not prove he was violent with her. Note, he trusted her with his gun to commit the robberies.

Don't be such a chickenshit and answer the question.

The question is the one of excluded middle. Or rather, excluded infinite possibilities all around your two choices. I.e. it's fallacious.

And quit deluding yourself that Cyntonia Brown or any other teenage girl is hooking because she likes having sex with random middle aged men.

No, hookers, including teenage hookers, do it for money. Cyntoia robbed people for money. There is a big difference. I do not think 16 year olds should hook, but nobody should rob. Robbery is not more honorable than sex work. I fact, it is less so.

You don't know what you would do if you were in the same circumstances as Cyntonia Brown. If you were a young teenager who ran away from an abusive home or were thrown out, what alternatives do you think you would have? Do you really think you would trust 'the system' to find you a nice foster family where you wouldn't be abused?

Evidence shows that she would be the abuser in said foster home. She assaulted about 20 kids by the age of 14. She assaulted teachers. She even assaulted the Department of Children's Services supervisor. And after being arrested for murder, she kept assaulting the guards and threatened a nurse that she will do the same to her as she did to Allen. To quote Walter White, she was not in danger. She was the danger. She was the one who knocked.

Your presumption is that Cyntonia is heterosexual and she may be. That is not relevant: prostitutes have sex with johns that they are not attracted to, that they don't like, who scare the shit out of them, who are dangerous, who abuse them and threaten them.

I think a hooker should be able to refuse clients. Of course, if she is picky looks-wise she will not make much money, but there are legitimate reasons to refuse that pertain to safety.
That said, my objection was that if she is heterosexual or bisexual she is at least attracted to the general male phenotype. There is a big difference for a heterosexual man between having sex with a woman he is not attracted to and having sex with a man. I reckon the same applies to heterosexual women. So you could have formulated your question with that in mind.

They don't do it for fun or pleasure. Oh, sure if they are smart and have clients who like to believe that the prostitutes do it for the pleasure and not for the cash, they will pretend their client is the BEST EVER. And will allow their disgust and pain to show if that is what gets the john off quickest because we all know that some guys get off on disgust and pain they cause.

There are degrees of attraction and pleasure and lack of both.

A fair number of female prostitutes are not heterosexual.

What do you consider a "fair number"? And they are probably bisexual rather than being full lez.

Seriously: if it were such a great job, there would be no need to force girls and women and boys into the sex trade.

Most sex workers are not forced into it. Most sex workers are not underage. The sex workers I have been seeing have been clearly adults and also clearly independent providers.
Stop believing prohibitionist propaganda.
And note, I have not seen any evidence that Cyntoia ever actually engaged in actual sex work with somebody. Her MO was theft and robbery.

Derec, a lot of female prostitutes are lesbians. They aren't attracted to any male. Most prostitutes are not attracted to their johns in any way at all.

Now answer the damn question: If your choice was blow a guy or rob him, which would you do? Trust me: the idea of blowing a guy is no more disgusting to you than it is to prostitutes, except that they are accustomed to doing what disgusts them.

 

[Derec]

I keep pointing out her choices. They were poor choices. If you were in her situation: rob someone or blow him, which would you do?

Again, you assume there are only two choices. She could always take the third option.

You don't get to choose. Legally, it was rape.

States do. Most agree with me that 18 is too high.

I don't think that anybody should be prostituted. But unfortunately hundreds of thousands of minor children are prostituted worldwide. Cyntonia was

Just because somebody is under 18 and we agree under-18s should not engage in sex work does not mean that they lack agency and cannot choose sex work. Sure, some minors are forced into it and some adults are too, but likewise both minors and adults can choose it freely as well. Being under 18 is not, in itself, proof that somebody is "being prostituted".

]

and so was Tracy Lords whose stepfather--the man who molested her from age 7 onwards--drove her to a modeling agency where she modeled nude, him vouching for her as being 22, as he did when she was offered film roles. She wanted legitimate acting roles--not porn. Unfortunately, she had a pervert stepfather 'looking out for her.'

Where do you get all this? My understanding was that she did all that herself. If you are right, then it was a bad example, and I hope the stepfather is still in prison somewhere.
Still, one parallel remains. The male actors who had sex with her not knowing her age did nothing wrong in my opinion.

So yeah, both were raped by people who were supposed to love and care for them.

Again, Cyntoia recanted the rape claim she made while in juvie. She still says it didn't happen. So why do you keep insisting it did?

These girls were not doing it because it was an actual choice, but as a means of survival.

We all need to survive. Trust me, if I could make money as a gigolo, I'd consider it.

But alas, I can't. But robbing people is not a legitimate way to make money, no matter your age. She is lucky somebody did not kill her in self defense.

You keep assuming that you could never, ever find yourself in a situation where your choice was to blow a guy or rob him. Lucky you. Far, far luckier than Cyntoia Brown or Tracy Lords. That doesn't stop you from being too chickenshit to answer the question: Which would you choose? Blow or rob the guy?

It's not being chickenshit to refuse your fallaciously restricted set of options.

 

[Derec]

Derec, a lot of female prostitutes are lesbians. They aren't attracted to any male.

How do you know that? I doubt you now many, if any hookers, except maybe a tiny self-selected subset from the Prohibitionist scene. But you have such a thing for everything. Ex-hookers, ex-porn stars, ex-gays, ex-Catholics, women who regret their abortions (including Roe herself). Anti-crowds always has their Sauls cum Pauls with a dramatic Road to Damascus.

Most prostitutes are not attracted to their johns in any way at all.

They may not be attracted to them in the sense that they would have sex with them without payment, but that is very different than actually being disgusted by them. If you are disgusted by the idea of having sex with strangers you are not necessarily attracted to you, sex work is nor for you, and you should seek other employment. I hear McDonald's is hiring.

And I still refuse to acknowledge that there are only two options. There is always option C.

 

[ruby sparks]

The jury decided she did. Facts do not necessarily lead to that conclusion.

So the police and the prosecutors and the jury concluded that she did, and the man was shot dead through the back of the head, and you say there are facts that suggest they may have got it wrong. The position of the body was apparently not that of someone reaching for a gun. His head was apparently on the pillow and his hands underneath his head. Suggestions that the position of the body was tampered with would not be much more than a conspiracy theory, not facts. Nor is her version of events a fact. I'm not even sure how the body could have been convincingly rearranged, with all that blood.

Personally, I would not want you on that jury, to be honest. I think you are letting your personal sympathies dictate too much.

I'm all for having some sympathy with her and fine with her getting out, but it seems too much to suggest the victim was not murdered.

 

[ruby sparks]

I’m not entirely sure that she committed murder.

I'm not entirely sure the back of your head isn't getting fairly close to the floor.

I have a lot of doubts about you and your head. Not necessarily a floor involved.

Touché!

 

[ZiprHead]

'You're consenting to being raped for money'

A woman describes her life as a prostitute.

 

[laughing dog]

You claim was in the US, not Tennessee. It is up to you to substantiate your claim, not me.

And it was a general claim based on experience. If you have any data to dispute it, show it, or stfu.

Translation - you cannot substantiate your claim of fact.

 

[laughing dog]

It's my well founded opinion, yes. Unlike your opinions which are based on automatic gainsaying of everything I say.

Your opinion is not fact, so please stop conflating the two. I did not gainsay anything - since you claim to know more than me, I simply was attempting to learn by asking for your source of information.

But it does not matter if she was a victim of some other crime in the past. She still robbed and murdered a man and should face consequences.

For someone who insists that past events that are irrelevant to the actual crime matter (her past violence), it is hypocritical to deny her past victimhood as mattering as part of the actual crime.
And, she did face the consequences - she was arrested, charged, convicted and served 15 years. The fact that her commutation of her sentence violates your sense of justice does not obviate those facts.

She keeps defending Cyntoia's decision to make money by robbing men.

I do not see that, and she denies it.

 

[Toni]

Derec, a lot of female prostitutes are lesbians. They aren't attracted to any male.

How do you know that? I doubt you now many, if any hookers, except maybe a tiny self-selected subset from the Prohibitionist scene. But you have such a thing for everything. Ex-hookers, ex-porn stars, ex-gays, ex-Catholics, women who regret their abortions (including Roe herself). Anti-crowds always has their Sauls cum Pauls with a dramatic Road to Damascus.

Where the fuck do you get this? You're just making up shit in your head because you don't like what I write.

Most prostitutes are not attracted to their johns in any way at all.

They may not be attracted to them in the sense that they would have sex with them without payment,

In other words: not attracted to them.

but that is very different than actually being disgusted by them.

Is it? I mean one can love one's sibling and still be disgusted by the idea of having sex with that sibling.

If you are disgusted by the idea of having sex with strangers you are not necessarily attracted to you, sex work is nor for you, and you should seek other employment.

Pretty tough when you are too young to work full time hours anywhere and have no job skills.

I hear McDonald's is hiring.

I hear that McDonalds doesn't hire very many full time workers and that they don't pay a living wage. So try again.

And I still refuse to acknowledge that there are only two options. There is always option C.

Sure, there's a whole alphabet of options including suicide, returning to an abusive home, if they will take you and so on. In that moment, those were the options she felt she had. For certain, working full time in a job that would allow her to support herself was not one nor was being able to sign a lease or open a bank account without an adult guardian/parent's signature. I've known kids whose parents and grandparents or aunts/uncles raided the kids' bank accounts and stole from the kid when the kid was the only person in the family who had an actual job.

You and I may not believe we would ever have allowed ourselves to be in the circumstances that she found herself. And maybe we would not have. But she didn't deserve to have those as her only choices. She, like any other kid, deserved a loving, stable home. She didn't get that, ever. Instead, she struggled with abuse of all kinds, mental illness which was untreated and ignored and a lack of support for her basic needs for survival. She acted out as most do in those circumstances. She had trouble in school and was labeled alternatively as being a victim of fetal alcohol syndrome and mentally slow and as academically gifted. She was not loved, she was not helped to deal with any of the shit she faced on a daily basis.

This is not a rare story. It's the story of a huge portion of the prison population, male or female. Black, white, Asian, Hispanic, NA. Not everybody. I know people who were raised by loving families who ended up in jail and/or prison. Drug/alcohol abuse were heavy factors for them.

So you and I were much luckier than people like Cyntoia.

 

[Toni]

That stems from puritanism inherent in US society to treat barely underage sex as rape.

It's not puritanical to protect kids from too early sexual involvement that stunts their social, emotional, academic development and compromises their ability to live productive lives. Note: most if not all states do not prohibit or classify sex with individuals close in age as rape. Statutory rape is where an individual who is much older exploits the youth of the victim for the older person's sexual gratification.

However, law does not always reflect reality.

Yeah, it does. You just don't like it. Face it: 15 year old girls find the idea of sex with 43 year old men to be gross.

Her profit really. Also, she wasn't raped, she robbed people.

Nope: her pimp's profit. She was raped repeatedly throughout her life, including by her pimp.

Her choice was to have sex with strangers for cash she would bring home to her pimp or to rob the johns for cash she would bring home to her pimp. Her pimp was a violent guy who died a violent death.

That does not prove he was violent with her. Note, he trusted her with his gun to commit the robberies.

He gave her a gun to protect herself against violent clients. The fact that he gave her a gun shows just how much control he had over her.

Evidence shows that she would be the abuser in said foster home. She assaulted about 20 kids by the age of 14. She assaulted teachers. She even assaulted the Department of Children's Services supervisor. And after being arrested for murder, she kept assaulting the guards and threatened a nurse that she will do the same to her as she did to Allen. To quote Walter White, she was not in danger. She was the danger.

In other words, she was behaving as an abused child behaves: she was violent. She had poor impulse control as is common to individuals born on the spectrum of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

There are degrees of attraction and pleasure and lack of both.

In prostitution, the only person's pleasure that matters is the client's.

Seriously: if it were such a great job, there would be no need to force girls and women and boys into the sex trade.

Most sex workers are not forced into it. Most sex workers are not underage. The sex workers I have been seeing have been clearly adults and also clearly independent providers.

How is it 'clear' that they are adult and independent? How did they enter that line of work?

And note, I have not seen any evidence that Cyntoia ever actually engaged in actual sex work with somebody. Her MO was theft and robbery.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/12/219015/cyntoia-brown-case-facts-real-story

n 2004 she began living in a series of hotels with the 24-year-old man she called “Cut Throat.” Her relationship with Cut Throat was sexually, physically, and emotionally abusive. He pulled a gun on her multiple times and once choked her so hard she passed out. Eventually he forced her into prostitution.
Brown later testified that, "He would explain to me that some people were born whores, and that I was one, and I was a slut, and nobody'd want me but him, and the best thing I could do was just learn to be a good whore.”
On the night of August 6, he ordered her to go out and “get money.” Brown met Allen later that evening in the parking lot of a Sonic franchise. He agreed to pay $150 for sex and drove them both back to his home where she later shot him.

She's identified over and over and over in all media as a prostitute. The fact that she robbed some people does not mean she wasn't a prostitute. Sometimes prostitutes rob their tricks. You should be careful.

 

[Derec]

'You're consenting to being raped for money'
A woman describes her life as a prostitute.

That headline is nonsensical. If you consent, it's not rape by definition.

But this illustrates the point I made in #163. Prohibitionists always push testimonies from people like this. And Teh Grauniad is very much prohibitionist regarding sex work. They routinely publish articles against it, including by radical feminist Julie Bindel. Emine Saner I don't know anything about, but I suspect she is also a radfem.
Note that the article's sole purpose is to argue against a documentary about "a prostitute who loves her work". Prohibitionists cannot abide that such people exist, and are likely the norm.

But, as I pointed out in post #163, that is no different than other anti-movements. They all find convenient ex-gays or whatever to push their anti-agenda.

- - - Updated - - -

Translation - you cannot substantiate your claim of fact.

That older minors are usually charged as adults in the US is a well known fact. Especially for murder.
If you disagree, do your own damn homework. I have dealt with you enough to know that you will not accept anything I post anyway.

 

[Derec]

Your opinion is not fact, so please stop conflating the two. I did not gainsay anything

That is your MO in any discussion we have. And if I actually post a source, you invariably split hairs and find some perceived fault in it. Do your own homework for once.

For someone who insists that past events that are irrelevant to the actual crime matter (her past violence),

How is her history of violence irrelevant? It shows she is a violent person. She was violent before she robbed and murdered Allen. She was obviously violent while she robbed and murdered Allen. And she even was violent after she was arrested for robbing and murdering Allen. She robbed and murdered Allen because she is a violent person, not because she was "in fear of her life".

it is hypocritical to deny her past victimhood as mattering as part of the actual crime.

If she was victimized in the past, Allen was not the one who did it. Therefore, that would not justify her robbing and murdering him.

And, she did face the consequences - she was arrested, charged, convicted and served 15 years.

She was sentenced to life in prison. Therefore, she did got off very easy.
And note that her fans, those who like Toni think she did not murder Allen, did not want her to serve any time at all.

The fact that her commutation of her sentence violates your sense of justice does not obviate those facts.

It should violate anybody's sense of justice. 15 years might be better than nothing, but it is not enough for taking a life.

I do not see that, and she denies it.

Read her posts. At one point, she even wrote that teenagers robbing people for a living is ok because McD does not pay much.

 

[Toni]

Again, you assume there are only two choices. She could always take the third option.

I'm presenting the two options she believed she had.

You don't like either option. Most people don't. In fact, both options were illegal. They remain the options open to a 16 year old on his or her own.

You just don't want to say which option you would choose because....maybe there's something wrong with having only those options?

States do. Most agree with me that 18 is too high.

No, in the US, 18 is the youngest possible age to be a prostitute.

Again, Cyntoia recanted the rape claim she made while in juvie. She still says it didn't happen. So why do you keep insisting it did?

Cyntoia asserts that she was raped repeatedly. I have not seen anything that indicates that she claims she was not raped. In fact, she claims to have been raped repeatedly over the few days prior to the murder in the documentary about her. Please produce a link that substantiates your claims.

She is lucky somebody did not kill her in self defense.

No shit. She was lucky not to have been killed turning tricks. Violence against prostitutes is quite common. Which is why her pimp gave her a gun.

You keep assuming that you could never, ever find yourself in a situation where your choice was to blow a guy or rob him. Lucky you. Far, far luckier than Cyntoia Brown or Tracy Lords. That doesn't stop you from being too chickenshit to answer the question: Which would you choose? Blow or rob the guy?

It's not being chickenshit to refuse your fallaciously restricted set of options.

Those are the choices she had. She was ordered to bring home money by the pimp who often beat her.

And yeah,you are a chickenshit.

 

[Derec]

Where the fuck do you get this? You're just making up shit in your head because you don't like what I write.

I get this from our prior discussions about sex work.

In other words: not attracted to them.

Your plumber also would not be cleaning out your drain if you were not paying him. He is not doing it because he is attracted to you.
How does that invalidate the transaction?

Is it? I mean one can love one's sibling and still be disgusted by the idea of having sex with that sibling.

What does that have to do with anything? I think any sex worker should be free to decline having their sibling as a customer.

Pretty tough when you are too young to work full time hours anywhere and have no job skills.

So what solution do you propose? Because you seem to think robbing and murdering people is a preferred solution for teenagers who run away from home.

I hear that McDonalds doesn't hire very many full time workers and that they don't pay a living wage. So try again.

I guess it's robbery and murder then, because while 16 year olds are too young to have sex, they are old enough to rob people and murder them if it will ensure the robbers get away ...
I guess you think these two were justified in their choice of careers as well?
16-year-old girl charged with murder and robbery following fatal police shooting
Luckily, no innocent people were killed here.

Sure, there's a whole alphabet of options including suicide, returning to an abusive home, if they will take you and so on. In that moment, those were the options she felt she had. For certain, working full time in a job that would allow her to support herself was not one nor was being able to sign a lease or open a bank account without an adult guardian/parent's signature. I've known kids whose parents and grandparents or aunts/uncles raided the kids' bank accounts and stole from the kid when the kid was the only person in the family who had an actual job.

I still do not think she was abused at her home. You are basing the "abuse" claim on a single (quickly recanted) claim that her (adopted) father raped her. But even if the claim were true, her parents divorced and the father was no longer living with them.
I think her family was more threatened by her violent behavior than she was threatened by them.

You and I may not believe we would ever have allowed ourselves to be in the circumstances that she found herself. And maybe we would not have. But she didn't deserve to have those as her only choices. She, like any other kid, deserved a loving, stable home. She didn't get that, ever. Instead, she struggled with abuse of all kinds, mental illness which was untreated and ignored and a lack of support for her basic needs for survival. She acted out as most do in those circumstances. She had trouble in school and was labeled alternatively as being a victim of fetal alcohol syndrome and mentally slow and as academically gifted. She was not loved, she was not helped to deal with any of the shit she faced on a daily basis.

I still do not see how any of this justify her stealing jewelry at 12, engaging in violence, or robbing and murdering a man.

This is not a rare story. It's the story of a huge portion of the prison population, male or female. Black, white, Asian, Hispanic, NA. Not everybody. I know people who were raised by loving families who ended up in jail and/or prison. Drug/alcohol abuse were heavy factors for them.

So you and I were much luckier than people like Cyntoia.

But our personal choices play a role too. She made some bad ones, and they led to her being a robber and a murderer. That should not be ignored when people try to pretend she didn't murder Allen, like you keep doing.

 

[Derec]

It's not puritanical to protect kids from too early sexual involvement that stunts their social, emotional, academic development and compromises their ability to live productive lives.

I most definitely agree. However, you can have laws protecting kids without treating sex under the age of consent as "rape" which it isn't. I think the draconian US laws do more harm than good. Other countries manage to protect kids without this whole "statutory rape" nonsense. Again, we do not call underage drinking as "statutory force-feeding of alcohol" either.
Also, most Western countries have age of consent around 16, not 18.

US is an anomaly here, and that has to do with US puritan past.

Note: most if not all states do not prohibit or classify sex with individuals close in age as rape. Statutory rape is where an individual who is much older exploits the youth of the victim for the older person's sexual gratification.

I understand that. Still, that exception is something like two years, if it exists at all (it does not in California, not sure about Tennessee). Do you really think a 20 year old and a 17 year old having consensual sex is anything akin to "rape"? Unfortunately, young adults get charged with "statutory rape" all the time and have to register as sex offenders just for having consensual sex with their girlfriends (and occasionally boyfriends) because of draconian and puritanical laws prevalent in US.

Yeah, it does. You just don't like it. Face it: 15 year old girls find the idea of sex with 43 year old men to be gross.

What do you mean "I don't like it"? I have no desire to fuck 15 year olds. I also do not think 15 year olds should enter sex work.
That said, I do not think 16 or 15 year olds should run around robbing people either.

Nope: her pimp's profit. She was raped repeatedly throughout her life, including by her pimp.

We do not know that. I doubt it very much, for reasons I have stated repeatedly. I definitely think a 16 year old can consent to have sex with a 24 year old, like for example her boyfriend and partner in crime Cut-Throat.

He gave her a gun to protect herself against violent clients. The fact that he gave her a gun shows just how much control he had over her.

Her MO was to rob people, hence the gun. She was the violent one here, not her "clients", i.e. robbery victims.
And how do you figure giving somebody a gun shows "just how much control he had over her"? Giving somebody a gun shows trust, as that gun can be used against him. People organizing criminal activity such as armed robberies will give others in their crew weapons all the time. It does not mean that a robbery crew are all "controlled" by or "slaves" of the leader.

In other words, she was behaving as an abused child behaves: she was violent. She had poor impulse control as is common to individuals born on the spectrum of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

Not all violent people have been abused. Wouldn't a person with real FAS also have lower IQ? Cyntoia's IQ is 127. FAS also causes physical problems including facial deformities and joint problems, that I do not think she has.
I think you and other members of the Cyntoia fan club have been manipulated.
I think she is a highly intelligent and violent sociopath. A deadly combination, as Allen unfortunately found out.

In prostitution, the only person's pleasure that matters is the client's.

That does not mean that the provider cannot enjoy it as well. It's like with any job with customer interaction - you enjoy working with some clients more than others.
That is irrelevant to the point that if two people agree to exchange sex for money, that is honorable. If one person chooses to rob another, that is not honorable.

How is it 'clear' that they are adult and independent?

I chose to only deal with providers where both are pretty obvious.

How did they enter that line of work?

It varies, I guess. Of course, you assume they had to be forced into it. But that's just your prejudice against sex work.

And note, I have not seen any evidence that Cyntoia ever actually engaged in actual sex work with somebody. Her MO was theft and robbery.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/12/219015/cyntoia-brown-case-facts-real-story

This article is titled "How The Justice System Failed Cyntoia Brown". It is clear from the beginning that it is going to be very biased. I.e. the author is a fellow member of the Cyntoia fan club.

n 2004 she began living in a series of hotels with the 24-year-old man she called “Cut Throat.” Her relationship with Cut Throat was sexually, physically, and emotionally abusive. He pulled a gun on her multiple times and once choked her so hard she passed out. Eventually he forced her into prostitution.

We do not have any independent corroboration of any of this, except that they lived together. Witnesses who were questioned about the aftermath of the murder saw them as boyfriend/girlfriend and were afraid of both of them, not just CT. And do you really believe a girl with the intelligence and violent tendencies that Cyntoia possesses in excess would meekly submit to somebody like CT anyway? I don't buy it for a second.
Of course, Leah Carroll accepts any statements by Cyntoia as fact.

She's identified over and over and over in all media as a prostitute. The fact that she robbed some people does not mean she wasn't a prostitute. Sometimes prostitutes rob their tricks. You should be careful.

There is a difference between a sex worker and a robber who poses as a sex worker. And of course I should be careful. The illegal status of sex work puts both sex workers and clients into undue danger. Thanks, prohibitionists ...

 

[Derec]

I'm presenting the two options she believed she had.

I don't think she really believed there was truly no other option, including going back home, or selling crack like she did previously.

You don't like either option. Most people don't. In fact, both options were illegal. They remain the options open to a 16 year old on his or her own.

And yet out of the two options, one involves a voluntary exchange of a service for payment, the other involves taking something that does not belong to you by force. The former is thus far more honorable.

You just don't want to say which option you would choose because....maybe there's something wrong with having only those options?

That was my point from the beginning. Listing only those two options is wrong, as there are never only these two options.

No, in the US, 18 is the youngest possible age to be a prostitute.

I thought we were talking of aoc in general. I think aoc of 18 is too old, but I think 18 is a good cutoff for sex workers.

Cyntoia asserts that she was raped repeatedly. I have not seen anything that indicates that she claims she was not raped. In fact, she claims to have been raped repeatedly over the few days prior to the murder in the documentary about her. Please produce a link that substantiates your claims.

You are conflating different time periods. Those claims are things that happened after she ran away from home.
I do not necessarily take her word for it here either, but note that not even she currently claims that she was raped/sexually abused at home. Therefore, she had no compelling reason to run away from home.

No shit. She was lucky not to have been killed turning tricks. Violence against prostitutes is quite common.

Unfortunately it happens that sex workers are victims of violence. It would be easier to deal with it if sex work was legal of course.
However, violence in self-defense against robbers is much more common. And while violence against sex workers is unjustified, violence in self-defense against robbers is very much justified.

Which is why her pimp gave her a gun.

No, her boyfriend gave her the gun so she could rob people.

hose are the choices she had. She was ordered to bring home money by the pimp who often beat her.

According to her. But she has every reason to lie about that, to make herself look like a victim. I do not think there has ever been any independent corroboration of that.

And yeah,you are a chickenshit.

Nope. Also, insults are against forum rules.

 

[Toni]

I don't think she really believed there was truly no other option, including going back home, or selling crack like she did previously.


And yet out of the two options, one involves a voluntary exchange of a service for payment, the other involves taking something that does not belong to you by force. The former is thus far more honorable.

So you’d blow the guy.

 

[laughing dog]

[

Translation - you cannot substantiate your claim of fact.

That older minors are usually charged as adults in the US is a well known fact. Especially for murder.
If you disagree, do your own damn homework. I have dealt with you enough to know that you will not accept anything I post anyway.

Your opinion is not fact. You made a claim of fact that you cannot substantiate. While there is no shame in it, it is no reason to cast aspersions.

 

[laughing dog]

That is your MO in any discussion we have. And if I actually post a source, you invariably split hairs and find some perceived fault in it. Do your own homework for once.

I asked you to substantiate your claim of fact. You have failed to do so. So, your MO is to fling aspersions to deflect from that.

How is her history of violence irrelevant? It shows she is a violent person. She was violent before she robbed and murdered Allen. She was obviously violent while she robbed and murdered Allen. And she even was violent after she was arrested for robbing and murdering Allen. She robbed and murdered Allen because she is a violent person, not because she was "in fear of her life".

it is hypocritical to deny her past victimhood as mattering as part of the actual crime.

If she was victimized in the past, Allen was not the one who did it. Therefore, that would not justify her robbing and murdering him.

Allen was victimizing in the present by engaging in statutory rape. Her victimhood from the past does not justify her actions, but it does provide mitigation for the sentence.

As for the rest of her response, you can have no clue what was going in on Ms.Brown's mind when she killed Mr. Allen. While you do not have to believe her story, you cannot honestly say for sure or even beyond a reasonable doubt what was on her mind,

She was sentenced to life in prison. Therefore, she did got off very easy.
And note that her fans, those who like Toni think she did not murder Allen, did not want her to serve any time at all.

Doesn't matter anyone thinks. She was convicted and served 15 years.

It should violate anybody's sense of justice. 15 years might be better than nothing, but it is not enough for taking a life.

Remind us all how many years you thought Timory Loehmann and Frank Garmback should have received for taking Tamir Rice's life.

Read her posts. At one point, she even wrote that teenagers robbing people for a living is ok because McD does not pay much.

I read her posts, including her denial of your claim. Once again, you conflate your opinion with fact.

 

[Derec]

Your opinion is not fact. You made a claim of fact that you cannot substantiate. While there is no shame in it, it is no reason to cast aspersions.

Older minors being charges as adults is a well known fact. And why should I hunt down stats for you when I know from previous experience with you that you will not accept it anyway.