In the Wee Hours of the Morning, (AKA The First Death of Innocence)

[Toni]

Why would her experience make her less objective, not more?

Think about it. It isnt complicated. She has clearly developed a victimhood complex. Doesn't mean she isn't a victim btw. But does mean she is biased to see herself as one even where it isn't so. When you are studying systems, everything is sexist, everything is racist, and you've got to point it all out.

Oh dear, is the above "goading" again?

Really? I don't see AA as a victim at all. And I don't think that she sees herself as a victim. Unlike others in this thread who clearly see themselves as victims...

 

[Toni]

Oh really?

Really.

You can't tell Loren and I apart?

Sure.

My judgment in this thread is that Athena knows what she is talking about, having lived the circumstances and events she describes. This is something none of us has done: we haven't lived her life nor had her experiences.

So? That makes it ok to be prejudiced against this individual cop?

AA isn't the one displaying prejudice here. She's recognizing the circumstances she grew up in, the reality of Jim Crow in small towns. Something that you refuse to do. Why is that? You act as though this were a case you were bringing to trial and you had 5 minutes to come up with a defense and you hit your go-to: That black lady is racist against my innocent white sheriff (who, in those days was likely a member of the Klan) and so are those two eye witnesses, one of whom is the dead man's brother. Probably the brother did it!

This is not a trial and you are convincing no one of your skills as a lawyer.

You think you can just look through some magic looking glass back into time and know what really happened, what was in the hearts and minds of people you never met in a place and time where you've never been and call that true. And anyone who disagrees with you is (as always) a racist.

Do you even read what you respond to? I am the one not insisting in a prejudiced judgent here, and not crying racism.

Sure you are.

You've had your own experiences. I don't try to tell you that they weren't true, they didn't really happen.

Nobody in this thread has told anybody that their experiences didn't happen.

Sure you are.

 

[Elixir]

She has clearly developed a victimhood complex.

Being a victim might do that to a person. Obviously a psychological problem with the victim, and it would be an egregious mistake to try to pin any blame on the perpetrator.
After all, he's an upstanding white public servant. Blaming the poor sheriff for the psychological problems of the family, after he drove up behind a family member and blew him away without a trial or any attempt to arrest him... that would be unjust. The only reason it was even mentioned here is that the OP was predisposed to a psychological derangement. Otherwise, murdering one of her family in cold blood would never have triggered a "victimhood complex". I'm sure that if it happened to YOUR uncle, you'd be a big enough man to refrain from calling "Racism!!", and just get along with your life. RIGHT? The fact that you're white would have nothing to do with it.

 

[laughing dog]

Why would her experience make her less objective, not more?

Think about it. It isnt complicated. She has clearly developed a victimhood complex. Doesn't mean she isn't a victim btw. But does mean she is biased to see herself as one even where it isn't so. When you are studying systems, everything is sexist, everything is racist, and you've got to point it all out.

I agree, it is not complicated. In most circumstances, we think people with experience are more adept and perceptive, not less so. In otherwords, there is more reason to think that people with experience with racism are MORE attuned to racist acts and attitudes when compared to those with less experience.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Unlike others in this thread who clearly see themselves as victims...

Who would that be? You? I am not a victim in this thread. Though I am continuing to post on a board and respond to you despite a strong admin bias in your favour and against mine. I wonder if you regularly leave your personal echo chambers as I do? If not, I encourage you to.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

AA isn't the one displaying prejudice here. She's recognizing the circumstances she grew up in, the reality of Jim Crow in small towns.

No she isnt. If that's what she was doing I would be agreeing with her. What she is going is telling a story and leaping to prejudiced conclusion based on it. That isn't the same thing at all.

Something that you refuse to do. Why is that?

How many times do I have to say otherwise before you drop this straw man?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

She has clearly developed a victimhood complex.

Being a victim might do that to a person.

Indeed it might. It often does. And what you left out together the above quote was my immediate next sentence stating her having a victimhood complex doesn't mean she hasn't been or isnt a victim.

Obviously a psychological problem with the victim, and it would be an egregious mistake to try to pin any blame on the perpetrator.

Which perpetrator is that precisely? Is the person who victimized Athena the same person she prejudges afterwards? Is it all white people as a group who are guilty and to be treated as the perpetrator with impunity?

After all, he's an upstanding white public servant. Blaming the poor sheriff for the psychological problems of the family, after he drove up behind a family member and blew him away without a trial or any attempt to arrest him... that would be unjust. n

See my original post in this thread. There are many open questions. Two of which are whether this guy actually did so, and what his motives were if he did so.

I'm sure that if it happened to YOUR uncle, you'd be a big enough man to refrain from calling "Racism!!", and just get along with your life. RIGHT? The fact that you're white would have nothing to do with it.

Why do your presume I am white? I believe I have corrected you on the point before. I have even made reference to my race in this very thread only a page or so ago. So clearly you haven't read what you are responding to.

And if I pulled a gun on a black guy and later got shot, and I and some friends later accused that same black guy of being the or who did it, with no independent witnesses or other evidence, then not only wouldn't I cry racism, I would fully expect Athena and yourself to cry racism against me. "oh, so you are saying the black guy did it eh? Because he is black, right???".

 

[Toni]

AA isn't the one displaying prejudice here. She's recognizing the circumstances she grew up in, the reality of Jim Crow in small towns.

No she isnt. If that's what she was doing I would be agreeing with her. What she is going is telling a story and leaping to prejudiced conclusion based on it. That isn't the same thing at all.

Something that you refuse to do. Why is that?

How many times do I have to say otherwise before you drop this straw man?

You can talk or write as long as you like.

We see you. Real clear.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

No she isnt. If that's what she was doing I would be agreeing with her. What she is going is telling a story and leaping to prejudiced conclusion based on it. That isn't the same thing at all.



How many times do I have to say otherwise before you drop this straw man?

You can talk or write as long as you like.

We see you. Real clear.

Oh I see. I talked about this above. I would like to reiterate that unlike you I won't demand others take positions I assign to them in the face of them saying otherwise. If Athena, Derec or Floof decide to speak opposite to the biases I expect from them, I will take it at face value. Maybe Athena will show back up in this post and run thread and say there is some ill she doesn't blame racism for, or that black people, and indeed all people, can be racist. That would be impressive for her and I would applaud it.

How exactly do you expect anyone to have a constructive conversation with you if in disagreement you feel the need to paint a straw man to them and demand this is what they REALLY must think? It makes for an easy comfort blanket I am sure, but it gains you nothing.

 

[Elixir]

Why do your presume I am white? I believe I have corrected you on the point before.

My mistake - I should have said "whiter".
But your self-identity does seem to make you think that you know, not only how AA feels about it, but also how she SHOULD feel.
I disagree, that's all. I think you know nothing of what AA feels or why she feels that way.

I have a Japanese GGF on my mother's side, and supposedly some First Nations blood a couple of generations earlier. But I have been accepted as "white" my entire life, and don't pretend to know how a dark-skinned African-American is routinely treated or how it makes them feel.

 

[Elixir]

Maybe Athena will show back up in this post and run thread and say there is some ill she doesn't blame racism for, or that black people, and indeed all people, can be racist. That would be impressive for her and I would applaud it.

Yeah, I'm sure you expect that any upstanding individual with a story like hers would do that.
No chance that you'd honor the fact that she posted the OP in the first place, right?
IMHO doing that took considerable courage.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

My mistake - I should have said "whiter".

Yes. You should roll your eyes at yourself for that one. And as it turns out I am not sure who is whiter. I am darker skinned than many "black" people. Keep digging that hole.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

No chance that you'd honor the fact that she posted the OP in the first place, right?

Honour it how? By acknowledging she made another post and run? Sure. Not entirely certain that is her personal story though. It reads more like a column or magazine article. She had another a while back (also a post and run) that was solid and evoked no questions and nothing but praise from me.

Or did you mean honour this OP by not asking any questions and leaping to prejudiced conclusions with her about the cop? Not so inclined to do that no. Why are you? Because of her race? Because of the cop's?

 

[Elixir]

Or did you mean honour this OP by not asking any questions and leaping to prejudiced conclusions with her about the cop?

How about ASKING questions and NOT leaping to prejudiced conclusions about the cop?
That would be how (I'd expect) you would treat the situation if you weren't triggered.
"But maybe the cop had his reasons and maybe she remembered wrong and maybe she is trying to call everyone a racist and maybe... and maybe... and maybe..."
Posting a litany of your doubts about the veracity of her story is EXACTLY to the form of "not asking any questions and leaping to prejudiced conclusions with her about the cop".
Can you not see that?

 

[Toni]

No chance that you'd honor the fact that she posted the OP in the first place, right?

Honour it how? By acknowledging she made another post and run? Sure. Not entirely certain that is her personal story though. It reads more like a column or magazine article. She had another a while back (also a post and run) that was solid and evoked no questions and nothing but praise from me.

Or did you mean honour this OP by not asking any questions and leaping to prejudiced conclusions with her about the cop? Not so inclined to do that no. Why are you? Because of her race? Because of the cop's?

Why on earth would AA stick around to take the kind of abuse that certain posters around here just luuuuuuuv to heap on whatever she writes?

 

[Elixir]

Why on earth would AA stick around to take the kind of abuse that certain posters around here just luuuuuuuv to heap on whatever she writes?

Right. Exactly.

 

[Toni]

My mistake - I should have said "whiter".

Yes. You should roll your eyes at yourself for that one. And as it turns out I am not sure who is whiter. I am darker skinned than many "black" people. Keep digging that hole.

Unless you've misrepresented your ancestry, you are not of African decent. No matter how much pigmentation your Filipino skin has given you, your skin tone may have more melanin than some black folks but you are not blacker. Nor were your ancestors kidnapped and stolen and brought to the US to work as slaves, forbidden to read or go to school, to marry a white person, to drink from the same water fountains, go to the same school or hospitals, register to vote, vote if you managed to register, and a host of other things. Yes, in the US, as in the rest of the world. there has always been horrific racial injustices done to many different peoples. Some of it still goes on. Hearts and minds can take many generations to change and heal wrongs of the past.

Maybe deal with your own shit instead of trying to deny that other people have lived with a lot worse than your shit.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why would the cop have had to be racist to have done it?

He wouldn't have to be racist to have done it. There are two open questions and conclusions being lept to here; that he did it and that if he did it, it was because of racism. Neither is warranted based on the facts as stated in the OP.

You need to re-read the OP. There was at least one eye witness to the murder so the question of whether or not he did it is already established. It is possible he would have murdered his rival even if the rival were white. It is less likely that he would have committed the murder of his rival in front of a white witness. He was likely not convicted because of the level of racism in Jim Crow Georgia.

I think I understand a couple of reasons you are unwilling to acknowledge what most of the Americans in this thread see every plainly.

Eyewitness testimony is very unreliable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I actually wasn't trying to goad you at all. I'm pointing out an observation. But if you want to play that way, you've made some pretty nasty personal attacks on me. Loren even said my leg should be broken--with zero consequences.

You seem to have a problem with the difference between setting a scenario and saying something should actually happen.

 

[Toni]

I actually wasn't trying to goad you at all. I'm pointing out an observation. But if you want to play that way, you've made some pretty nasty personal attacks on me. Loren even said my leg should be broken--with zero consequences.

You seem to have a problem with the difference between setting a scenario and saying something should actually happen.

You seem to have a problem wherein you think violence should be done to me.