Failed prophecy.

[ruby sparks]

Ah ok but I would think, they would KNOW that it is supposed to happen as ONLY as according to the sequence of prophesied events in revelation.

You are completely missing the obvious point. Why is Paul reassuring them that it will happen in their lifetime?

The book of Revelation wasn't even written yet, by the way. I mean seriously. It's ridiculous that I, an atheist, even have to tell you this stuff.

 

[Learner]

It has nothing to do with what I believe.

The predicated event is described in the text by the narrative and a timeline is promised, the described event is said to happen within the lifetime of that generation.

Did it happen as described and promised? It did not.

It has EVERYTHING to do with belief of an interpretation of texts....simple as... your atheistic belief the texts MEANS this ...

What is there to misinterpret? When the narrative states 'this generation shall not pass,' what else can it mean? Thousands of years in the future?

This generation ...can be any generation as the example I made previously in future-tense. You interpreted it in a way (to your likiing perhaps) to fit the usual rethoric. But... How does it mention with good explanation that demostrates the "meaning" is of the "present" generation .. referring to the generation in Jesus's time?

 

[skepticalbip]

What is there to misinterpret? When the narrative states 'this generation shall not pass,' what else can it mean? Thousands of years in the future?

This generation ...can be any generation as the example I made previously in future-tense. You interpreted it in a way (to your likiing perhaps) to fit the usual rethoric. But... How does it mention with good explanation that demostrates the "meaning" is of the "present" generation .. referring to the generation in Jesus's time?

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

That sure looks like Jesus promised to return to establish His 'Kingdom on Earth' while some of those he was speaking to were still alive.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What I am trying to say here is: The arguments is literally based on the bible ,which is just: merely an interpretation.

Not merely an interpretation. It's what the words say. To say something different, Learner, you have to add things to the text, a biblical no-no.

Jesus did not say anything about future qualifier events to the point of distant generations. He said YOU PEOPLE STANDING HERE, not some day someone will stand here and see what i just promised you people....

Eh. This is just liie creationists. Arfgue backwards from the conclusion to the evidence for it....

 

[Keith&Co.]

This generation ...can be any generation

Really?

Prove it. Show how 'this generation' was translated into English. What were the options, grammatically speaking? Hiw does tense work in tge originals?

Citation needed.

 

[Politesse]

This generation ...can be any generation

Really?

Prove it. Show how 'this generation' was translated into English. What were the options, grammatically speaking? Hiw does tense work in tge originals?

Citation needed.

That's... a rather complicated discussion actually. Koine and English have very different tense systems.

 

[steve_bank]

The problem is always that in Christian scripture there are always alternative interpretations and quotes. I have been wtaching old western movies and TV shows. One Christian quotes scripture to make a moral point, and another Christian quotes something else in scripture to make a counter point.

When in recorded history have there not been

wars and rumors of war
plagues
famines
pestilence
earthquakes
cataclysmic storms

and so on?

 

[steve_bank]

There is a scripture based prophesy with a war and the apocalypse with modern Russia, China, and the USA represented by a bear, dragon, and eagle. It is easy for human imagination to see a connection when there is none.

Obama was fit into an end time prophesy.

There is an endless stream of prophesy matching current events on Christian TV and radio. I forget it, there is a term for fitting current events into scripture. I don't know if eschatology is the right word.

 

[DBT]

What is there to misinterpret? When the narrative states 'this generation shall not pass,' what else can it mean? Thousands of years in the future?

This generation ...can be any generation as the example I made previously in future-tense. You interpreted it in a way (to your likiing perhaps) to fit the usual rethoric. But... How does it mention with good explanation that demostrates the "meaning" is of the "present" generation .. referring to the generation in Jesus's time?

There are verses that state 'some of those standing here.'

Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16:28)

 

[DBT]

This generation ...can be any generation

Really?

Prove it. Show how 'this generation' was translated into English. What were the options, grammatically speaking? Hiw does tense work in tge originals?

Citation needed.

That's... a rather complicated discussion actually. Koine and English have very different tense systems.

The first generation Christians expected to see the literal return of Jesus, as described, within their lifetimes.

“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11)

“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)

“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18)

“Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.” (1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31)

“The end of all things is near…” (1 Peter 4:7)

 

[Politesse]

That's... a rather complicated discussion actually. Koine and English have very different tense systems.

The first generation Christians expected to see the literal return of Jesus, as described, within their lifetimes.

“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11)

“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)

“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18)

“Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.” (1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31)

“The end of all things is near…” (1 Peter 4:7)

I was not trying to contradict this point.

 

[DBT]

That's... a rather complicated discussion actually. Koine and English have very different tense systems.

The first generation Christians expected to see the literal return of Jesus, as described, within their lifetimes.

“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11)

“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)

“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18)

“Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.” (1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31)

“The end of all things is near…” (1 Peter 4:7)

I was not trying to contradict this point.

I was commenting on interpretation, that the first generation Christians interpreted the narrative as it is written, a literal interpretation, as described.

 

[Keith&Co.]

This generation ...can be any generation

Really?

Prove it. Show how 'this generation' was translated into English. What were the options, grammatically speaking? Hiw does tense work in tge originals?

Citation needed.

That's... a rather complicated discussion actually. Koine and English have very different tense systems.

Wow, that's surprising. Learner is so certain he can make his assertion, though....

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The key word here in genea. Genea, like many Koine words can have a variety of meanings. One has to take things in context, to understand the meaning intended. Such as Jesus claim his disciples will not have gone over the villages and towns of Israel until the end and the coming of God's kingdom. Or the claims, "Some standing here will not taste of death...". The sermon on the mount of Matthew tells us the end is near, sell all you have and give to the poor, quit homes and businesses and wait for the end which is near. "Take no thought for the morrow" etc. The meaning of "genea" in this generation must be decided by the many claims of Jesus in the gospels that the coming of the kingdom of God is to happen, very soon, not 2000 years later. We cannot take one word out of it's larger context and play games with that word like so many Christian apologists do. That the many predicted horrors of Matthew 24 did not happen in the sense of that day and age is obvious, but that is obviously how the writer of Matthew meant it to be understood. That is the understanding of that writer as demonstrated by the entire gospel's numerous claims that the coming of the kingdom of God was to occur very soon.

 

[Politesse]

The key word here in genea. Genea, like many Koine words can have a variety of meanings. One has to take things in context, to understand the meaning intended. Such as Jesus claim his disciples will not have gone over the villages and towns of Israel until the end and the coming of God's kingdom. Or the claims, "Some standing here will not taste of death...". The sermon on the mount of Matthew tells us the end is near, sell all you have and give to the poor, quit homes and businesses and wait for the end which is near. "Take no thought for the morrow" etc. The meaning of "genea" in this generation must be decided by the many claims of Jesus in the gospels that the coming of the kingdom of God is to happen, very soon, not 2000 years later. We cannot take one word out of it's larger context and play games with that word like so many Christian apologists do. That the many predicted horrors of Matthew 24 did not happen in the sense of that day and age is obvious, but that is obviously how the writer of Matthew meant it to be understood. That is the understanding of that writer as demonstrated by the entire gospel's numerous claims that the coming of the kingdom of God was to occur very soon.

I notice you are conflating "the writer of Matthew" with Jesus' original audience. Is this actually reasonable? Most scholars think that Matthew was written at least one, maybe two generations after the events of the gospels. At the very least, its composition must post-date the destruction of the Temple. Assuming any of our dates are right, at least 40 or 50 years had passed between the time Jesus made his prediction, and the time Matthew compiled his Gospel. Possibly longer. I suppose some of the apostles may have yet been alive. But presumably, their passing was one of the motivations for putting every down in print to begin with. No one ever thinks to write a history book until the witnesses start dying off.

Mind you, I don't see how any of the people involved could have meant a date two thousand years in the future. I simply can't imagine a 1st century Middle Eastern prophet having that thought at all. 2000 years? In a culture where most dates put into are figured from the most recent monarch's accession, or which holiday will come next?

 

[steve_bank]

Politese keeps trying to sidestep the issue with a lot of words having nothing to do with the question.

There are followers of Nostra Damus and Edgar Cayce a modern so called seer and prophet.

In terms of the messiah prophesy there is no way to know what the lineage of a flesh and blood Jesus. We do not even know what his real name was. His mother was not Misses Christ.

The prophesy was for a leader who would restore Israel to past power. Certainly not for a messiah out to save the souls of gentiles and pagans. That idea development when non Jewish Christians adapted Judaism for themselves. They laid claim to scripture as theirs apart from Jews.

The modern Christian bible based prophesies are all fabricated to suit modern Christianity.

 

[Politesse]

Politese keeps trying to sidestep the issue with a lot of words having nothing to do with the question.

I'm not contradicting the OP...

 

[bilby]

There's a prediction doing the rounds on Facebook that the world will end on April 23.

This serves the very useful purpose of identifying the people who don't look past the headlines (almost everyone on FB); If you click on the accompanying article, it was written on 12 April, 2018, and so the prophecy is that the world will end this time LAST year.

Which renders it less than convincing in my book.

ETA a bit of Googling suggests that April 23 is a very popular date for Doomsday predictions; The first of which was 23rd April 1843.

https://www.livescience.com/62293-bogus-doomsday-april-23.html

 

[skepticalbip]

Maybe those prophets were right and the world did end but no one noticed. I know that there have been several big things that have happened that I didn't notice at the time.

 

[bilby]

Maybe those prophets were right and the world did end but no one noticed.

Nah, I just looked out the window - It's still there.