California bans plastic bags

[Axulus]

Are you all forgetting to take these other issues into account regarding reusable bags?

-People will have to now buy plastic bags to use for trash liners
-More cases of food-borne illness as the bags become filthy, with 97% of reusable bag users saying they don't wash them (Source People regularly washing them and drying them now wastes time and other energy resources that are supposedly a no-no for greens.
-As has already been mentioned in this thread, plastic bags are useful for pet owners. Additionally, I had a plastic bag container filled with plastic bags which I used regularly for all sorts of purposes - putting ice into them to put into my cooler, for example. To fill with snacks when taking a day trip. Among many other things.

If plastic bags blowing out of landfills are an issue, go after the practices of the landfill - if the bags are blowing around, what other shit is blowing around as well? What sense does it make to ban the bags when the practices of the landfill are the core issue? This is the kind of nonsense environmentalism that pretty much does no actual good for the world.

 

[Axulus]

One possible side note, production of bags. Plastic bag production is on going and will continue. Cloth bags are reusuable, so while they require a lot more in the way of resources, wouldn't we get to a point where production of cloth bags is down because of a saturation in the market? That saturation can not be met with plastic bags.

Yeah, that's more what I thought. So my nylon bags, call them LDPE as an approximation, are four hundred times better than the disposable in the most conservative case. And their life is not yet over. My cotton bags, at least 10 times better.

So, yah, that.

How are you coming to that conclusion? The table in the report implies, or at least how I interpret it, cloth bags need to be used hundreds of times to match the energy consumed relative to plastic bags.

You are completely ignoring the energy consumed in cleaning and drying the bags or dealing with the additional cases of food borne illness for failure to do so? Also, what about the energy consumed by people having to buy more plastic bags, which are useful for trash liners among other things, offsetting a good part of the so called savings/benefit from banning them?

 

[Underseer]

One possible side note, production of bags. Plastic bag production is on going and will continue. Cloth bags are reusuable, so while they require a lot more in the way of resources, wouldn't we get to a point where production of cloth bags is down because of a saturation in the market? That saturation can not be met with plastic bags.
How are you coming to that conclusion? The table in the report implies, or at least how I interpret it, cloth bags need to be used hundreds of times to match the energy consumed relative to plastic bags.

You are completely ignoring the energy consumed in cleaning and drying the bags or dealing with the additional cases of food borne illness for failure to do so? Also, what about the energy consumed by people having to buy more plastic bags, which are useful for trash liners among other things, offsetting a good part of the so called savings/benefit from banning them?

If the energy of washing cloth bags creates more problems than disposing of plastic bags, then demonstrate that this is the case.

If cloth bags cause more disease than plastic bags, then demonstrate that this is the case.

 

[Axulus]

If the energy of washing cloth bags creates more problems than disposing of plastic bags, then demonstrate that this is the case.

If cloth bags cause more disease than plastic bags, then demonstrate that this is the case.

Food borne illness and contamination of reusable bags: http://www.foodlegal.com.au/uploads/Cross contamination of reusable shopping bags_i171.pdf

I don't have a clue how you quantify the problems caused by disposing of plastic bags (which I've already mentioned is more of a problem with landfills letting their shit blow off their property more than anything).

The solution is equivalent to saying that because oil spills are bad for the environment we should outright ban oil all together.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you all forgetting to take these other issues into account regarding reusable bags?

-People will have to now buy plastic bags to use for trash liners
-More cases of food-borne illness as the bags become filthy, with 97% of reusable bag users saying they don't wash them (Source People regularly washing them and drying them now wastes time and other energy resources that are supposedly a no-no for greens.
-As has already been mentioned in this thread, plastic bags are useful for pet owners. Additionally, I had a plastic bag container filled with plastic bags which I used regularly for all sorts of purposes - putting ice into them to put into my cooler, for example. To fill with snacks when taking a day trip. Among many other things.

If plastic bags blowing out of landfills are an issue, go after the practices of the landfill - if the bags are blowing around, what other shit is blowing around as well? What sense does it make to ban the bags when the practices of the landfill are the core issue? This is the kind of nonsense environmentalism that pretty much does no actual good for the world.

It isn't nonsense. Plastic bags that aren't disposed or recycled properly are an issue. Only so many plastic bags can only be reused in a household. So you are left with a majority of plastic bags that are created, used once, and disposed of or recycled. On the face of it, that is very wasteful. But the other side of the coin is that reusable bags require a boatload more of resources to make.

Based on all the facts, some of which can be misunderstood or not understood properly, the clear way to go would be to require reusing plastic bags at the grocery store. Tax each bag at 50 cents to a dollar a piece. The benefit would be more reuse of existing plastic bags, which when combined with their relatively cheaper environmental creation will make their final cost on the environment more enticing.

One possible side note, production of bags. Plastic bag production is on going and will continue. Cloth bags are reusuable, so while they require a lot more in the way of resources, wouldn't we get to a point where production of cloth bags is down because of a saturation in the market? That saturation can not be met with plastic bags.
How are you coming to that conclusion? The table in the report implies, or at least how I interpret it, cloth bags need to be used hundreds of times to match the energy consumed relative to plastic bags.

You are completely ignoring the energy consumed in cleaning and drying the bags or dealing with the additional cases of food borne illness for failure to do so? Also, what about the energy consumed by people having to buy more plastic bags, which are useful for trash liners among other things, offsetting a good part of the so called savings/benefit from banning them?

Cleaning and drying the bags would be inconsequential as they can be tossed in with the laundry. There is a glut of plastic bags. You can only reuse so many of them. The big issue, based on the study linked above is the resources used to create the bags in the first place.

 

[doubtingt]

One possible side note, production of bags. Plastic bag production is on going and will continue. Cloth bags are reusuable, so while they require a lot more in the way of resources, wouldn't we get to a point where production of cloth bags is down because of a saturation in the market? That saturation can not be met with plastic bags.
How are you coming to that conclusion? The table in the report implies, or at least how I interpret it, cloth bags need to be used hundreds of times to match the energy consumed relative to plastic bags.

You are completely ignoring the energy consumed in cleaning and drying the bags or dealing with the additional cases of food borne illness for failure to do so?

About the only thing that would contaminate a bag and require it to be washed would be raw meats that are not fully sealed (e.g., just wrapped in plastic), such that the juices get outside the package. But the ban does not apply to these. Raw fruits and veggies, and meats can still be put into plastic bags.

Also, what about the energy consumed by people having to buy more plastic bags, which are useful for trash liners among other things, offsetting a good part of the so called savings/benefit from banning them?

It is true that some people reuse the bags for other things and this saves energy over buying bags for those other purposes (such as for kitty litter in my case), even if the bags one buys are recycled, the recycling uses more energy than using an existing grocery bag. However, the energy saved during the act of using an old grocery bag is only making up for the energy used to make the bag before you got it from the grocery store. Thus, the when you combine the acts of transporting your groceries home and uses like trashbag, the total energy used is about the same for groceries transported in a canvas sack with new plastic bags bought for trash, versus groceries transported in a "new" plastic bag then the bag reused for trash. IF every bag that was used for transporting groceries was actually given a secondary use for which a new plastic bag would need to be bought, then banning the bags would not save any energy. However, that is not at all the case and many grocery bags are thrown away or stuffed in a drawer for decades and people use new plastic bags anyway rather than reusing. For every such non-reused grocery bag energy is saved by reducing the bags people get from the grocery store in the first place.

Personally, the ban would have no impact upon my own carbon footprint because I am extremely frugal and reuse all my plastic grocery bags. But since many people do not, the net impact would be a significant reduction in energy use.

I think a version of your argument applies better to things like energy efficient appliances. The energy saved in operating a newer rather than older appliance can be more than offset by the wasteful tossing out of less efficient but still fully working appliances that could still last decades. Making the new appliance, transporting it, and removing the old one all consume energy that would not be spent if you just kept using the older one until it died.

 

[Emily Lake]

My partner insists that we have dogs. I'd rather not but she loves dogs too much to do without.

I'm at a loss as to what to do with their shit if I don't have plastic bags with which to pick up the shit. Our mutant 90lb greyhound has big shits. The miniature dachshund shit small and often. I'm making a composter in the back corner of our lot so I can use a shovel and just scoop the poop in our yard. But we go on lots of long walks and you just can't go leaving shits laying about.

I have a 100 lbs. Golden who thinks that he is a cow and eats grass. He has multiple, massive dumps on his walks. Lots of the grocery plastic bags are needed for every walk. The poop bags that are sold for this purpose are just too small.

But I am certain that if the stores in our area stops using them that some enterprising company will jump in to fill the need.

Two dogs. 2-5 miles. 3-4 bags. I do hate sending all of that poop to the landfill wrapped in bags. Do like keeping the poop off of lawns and from washing into the lagoon in the massive wet we are having. Will figure something out. Other than picking up dog poop I'm in the haters camp for plastic bags.

Either purchase compostable dog waste bags, like these, or carry a small (depending on your dog breed) bucket with a secure lid and a shovel, then add it to your own backyard compost.

I'm surprised you guys don't know about these. I've been using compostable bags along with biodegradeable kitty litter for nearly a decade.

 

[Emily Lake]

If the energy of washing cloth bags creates more problems than disposing of plastic bags, then demonstrate that this is the case.

If cloth bags cause more disease than plastic bags, then demonstrate that this is the case.

Food borne illness and contamination of reusable bags: http://www.foodlegal.com.au/uploads/Cross contamination of reusable shopping bags_i171.pdf

I don't have a clue how you quantify the problems caused by disposing of plastic bags (which I've already mentioned is more of a problem with landfills letting their shit blow off their property more than anything).

The solution is equivalent to saying that because oil spills are bad for the environment we should outright ban oil all together.

Just out of curiosity, have you heard of the  North Pacific Gyre, and the  Great Pacific Garbage Patch?

ETA: How do I detach an attached image? It's not what I thought it was, but I didn't realize it from the thumbnail.

 

[Derec]

I use canvas bags when I shop.Is it true that in the EU plastic bags are not used much?

I don't know about now, but when I lived in Germany in the 90s supermarkets had both plastic bags and canvas bags available for purchase. Both had store logos (nice marketing) and plastic bags were less durable than canvas (much much thicker and more durable than those common in US, so they could be used numerous times) but also cheaper.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Reusable grocery bags are actually less green than the disposable ones. The problem is they cost a lot more resources to make and won't last long enough to make up for it.

Not to mention that grocery bags are likely to get reused to contain something else, removing them from the system won't remove this use, something else will get used instead--likely not recycled.

While this isn't the same thing as the pathological altruism thread it's a related issue. It's being done for supposedly ecological reasons but it's actually bad for the environment.

Can you provide the numbers instead of just concluding your preconceived notion?

How much energy goes into creating a plastic bag, how much goes into creating a reusable cloth bag?

How many uses of the reusable cloth bag will make it equivalent to the cheaper to produce plastic bag?

Just how many non-recycled processed uses of a typical plastic bag will there be?

I don't recall where I saw the information. It takes a few hundred uses to balance things out, though--and that's not to mention the potentially deadly nature of reusable bags. Put meat in the bag, the package leaks a little bit but you don't notice it. Next time you put produce in the bag and don't wash it perfectly...

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Where's your backup for that? My canvas totes last years & years & years -- you're saying that if I use the same tote for 1500 transactions, that I haven't compensated for 1500 plastic bags being made? (And, really, more than 1500, since my totes hold more than the typical WalMart bag.) Also, about the claim that the plastic bags are likely destined for reuse, try walking around the 'blow zone' behind any big retail store, where the wind carries bags and drink cups and whatnot. Guarantee you'll find a large amount of the damn things. (Actually, that's where I get mine for yard waste. Walk the dog there and pick up the cleaner, untattered bags. In one or two walks I can pick up a half year's worth.)

If you get 1,500 out of it it's definitely greener.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's a report. The one thing I'm curious is that the paper bags are compared to cotton bags. Is that what the normal bags we get with the reusable ones?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/291023/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf

Consistent with what I saw--look how many times you have to reuse the cotton bags to make it match.

And if you wash them during that time you'll need to reuse them even more. The others don't hold up very well.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Cleaning and drying the bags would be inconsequential as they can be tossed in with the laundry. There is a glut of plastic bags. You can only reuse so many of them. The big issue, based on the study linked above is the resources used to create the bags in the first place.

And you don't fill the machine when you do the laundry?

And the energy used in drying is far more tied to how much drying is needed than per load.

You don't get to handwave away the cleaning resources.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are completely ignoring the energy consumed in cleaning and drying the bags or dealing with the additional cases of food borne illness for failure to do so?

About the only thing that would contaminate a bag and require it to be washed would be raw meats that are not fully sealed (e.g., just wrapped in plastic), such that the juices get outside the package. But the ban does not apply to these. Raw fruits and veggies, and meats can still be put into plastic bags.

When you go to the meat counter you find a lot of packages of meat that are plastic-wrapped and supposedly leakproof. People normally do not double-bag these. Occasionally, though, they leak anyway.

It is true that some people reuse the bags for other things and this saves energy over buying bags for those other purposes (such as for kitty litter in my case), even if the bags one buys are recycled, the recycling uses more energy than using an existing grocery bag. However, the energy saved during the act of using an old grocery bag is only making up for the energy used to make the bag before you got it from the grocery store. Thus, the when you combine the acts of transporting your groceries home and uses like trashbag, the total energy used is about the same for groceries transported in a canvas sack with new plastic bags bought for trash, versus groceries transported in a "new" plastic bag then the bag reused for trash. IF every bag that was used for transporting groceries was actually given a secondary use for which a new plastic bag would need to be bought, then banning the bags would not save any energy. However, that is not at all the case and many grocery bags are thrown away or stuffed in a drawer for decades and people use new plastic bags anyway rather than reusing. For every such non-reused grocery bag energy is saved by reducing the bags people get from the grocery store in the first place.

I disagree with the math here. If the bags are 100% repurposed then the cost of making them is approximately zero because something else will have to be used instead. The only actual savings is to the extent they are not reused.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a 100 lbs. Golden who thinks that he is a cow and eats grass. He has multiple, massive dumps on his walks. Lots of the grocery plastic bags are needed for every walk. The poop bags that are sold for this purpose are just too small.

But I am certain that if the stores in our area stops using them that some enterprising company will jump in to fill the need.

Two dogs. 2-5 miles. 3-4 bags. I do hate sending all of that poop to the landfill wrapped in bags. Do like keeping the poop off of lawns and from washing into the lagoon in the massive wet we are having. Will figure something out. Other than picking up dog poop I'm in the haters camp for plastic bags.

Either purchase compostable dog waste bags, like these, or carry a small (depending on your dog breed) bucket with a secure lid and a shovel, then add it to your own backyard compost.

I'm surprised you guys don't know about these. I've been using compostable bags along with biodegradeable kitty litter for nearly a decade.

And those bags have to be made. To the reusable grocery bag side of the tally you have to add the resource cost of the replacements people purchase.

 

[NobleSavage]

Don't they have biodegradable plastic? I remember getting a fancy brand of juice and it said the plastic was made from corn. If this has already been addressed, I apologize for not reading through four pages of posts.

 

[Rhea]

One possible side note, production of bags. Plastic bag production is on going and will continue. Cloth bags are reusuable, so while they require a lot more in the way of resources, wouldn't we get to a point where production of cloth bags is down because of a saturation in the market? That saturation can not be met with plastic bags.

Yeah, that's more what I thought. So my nylon bags, call them LDPE as an approximation, are four hundred times better than the disposable in the most conservative case. And their life is not yet over. My cotton bags, at least 10 times better.

So, yah, that.

How are you coming to that conclusion? The table in the report implies, or at least how I interpret it, cloth bags need to be used hundreds of times to match the energy consumed relative to plastic bags.

I come to this conclusion with the following math:

EACH of my nylon bags holds the equivalent that the bagger uses 6-8 plastics for (they hold 25 pounds, or about 3 gallons of milk), EACH of my bags is used at least once a week for groceries, and at least once a month I go twice, the bags are also used for every other shopping trip I take, about once a week - so call that just twice a week. I've owned these bags for more than 10 years. 6*52*2*10=6240 conservative as I only replaced 6 bags per fill not 8 - and believe me, they do use 8, drives me nuts! My nylon bag has replaced the equivalent of over 6000 plastic bags, and that is not even counting the days it went to the library, to camp, to school, to soccer, to the mailbox, to work with extra stuff, to clean out the car to carry things for picnics or visits or the beach.

My reusables have displaced THOUSANDS of plastic bags, hence my claim that they are 400 times better than a plastic HDPE bag. My cotton bags have deplaced tens of plastics. One canvas I still use was from college, 25 years ago. One was from a vacation, it shows a North Dakota stamp for 25¢ on it - I guess that was mid 1980s? Still going.


No I don't ever fill my laundry so full that one canvas bag would make a difference (nor my cloth napkins, for that matter). I don't wash them that often. But I wash the food that comes out of them. Also I don't dry them. You don't need to dry nylon and you don't want to dry canvas.

 

[Godless Raven]

We are going to be considered one of the dumbest, most careless and reckless generation of living things that have ever walked this planet by future generations. And when they look at the way scientists working to slow down or stop global climate change were vilified...They will have every right to think of us this way.

It's unbelievable.

 

[Axulus]

We are going to be considered one of the dumbest, most careless and reckless generation of living things that have ever walked this planet by future generations. And when they look at the way scientists working to slow down or stop global climate change were vilified...They will have every right to think of us this way.

It's unbelievable.

Showing a bunch of photos from third world countries to defend a plastic bag ban in California. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Archimedes]

Are you all forgetting to take these other issues into account regarding reusable bags?

-People will have to now buy plastic bags to use for trash liners.

Oh the humanity!

Srsly, what's the issue with people buying trash bags as opposed to collecting them for free from doing their shopping? I've been buying medium sized trash bags since the levy was introduced here (12.years ago) and had to buy larger and smaller bags I didn't get with regular shopping anyway. What the fuck is the "issue" with people having to buy medium sized trash bags?

 

[bleubird]

https://www.google.com/search?q=pla...stic-eating-bacteria-solution-to.html;530;300

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

One possible side note, production of bags. Plastic bag production is on going and will continue. Cloth bags are reusuable, so while they require a lot more in the way of resources, wouldn't we get to a point where production of cloth bags is down because of a saturation in the market? That saturation can not be met with plastic bags.
How are you coming to that conclusion? The table in the report implies, or at least how I interpret it, cloth bags need to be used hundreds of times to match the energy consumed relative to plastic bags.

I come to this conclusion with the following math:

EACH of my nylon bags holds the equivalent that the bagger uses 6-8 plastics for (they hold 25 pounds, or about 3 gallons of milk), EACH of my bags is used at least once a week for groceries, and at least once a month I go twice, the bags are also used for every other shopping trip I take, about once a week - so call that just twice a week. I've owned these bags for more than 10 years. 6*52*2*10=6240 conservative as I only replaced 6 bags per fill not 8 - and believe me, they do use 8, drives me nuts! My nylon bag has replaced the equivalent of over 6000 plastic bags, and that is not even counting the days it went to the library, to camp, to school, to soccer, to the mailbox, to work with extra stuff, to clean out the car to carry things for picnics or visits or the beach.

My reusables have displaced THOUSANDS of plastic bags, hence my claim that they are 400 times better than a plastic HDPE bag. My cotton bags have deplaced tens of plastics. One canvas I still use was from college, 25 years ago. One was from a vacation, it shows a North Dakota stamp for 25¢ on it - I guess that was mid 1980s? Still going.


No I don't ever fill my laundry so full that one canvas bag would make a difference (nor my cloth napkins, for that matter). I don't wash them that often. But I wash the food that comes out of them. Also I don't dry them. You don't need to dry nylon and you don't want to dry canvas.

That works.

- - - Updated - - -

Cleaning and drying the bags would be inconsequential as they can be tossed in with the laundry. There is a glut of plastic bags. You can only reuse so many of them. The big issue, based on the study linked above is the resources used to create the bags in the first place.

And you don't fill the machine when you do the laundry?

There is always a little more room.

And the energy used in drying is far more tied to how much drying is needed than per load.

Problem solved by hanging the bags to dry.

You don't get to handwave away the cleaning resources.

I'm thinking of hand gestures, but not handwaving with your response.