Masturbation and the "normal" person

[fromderinside]

Wow. So when your partner is in the can you play with feces? Hmmmmnnn. Where have I seen that before. Some (sic) topics (sic) require mature discussion others don't (sic). this one ........ back in the third grade?

This does not make any sense.

It wasn't supposed to make any mores sense than comparing drinking addiction with sex addiction. I accept they are seen by some as addictions. One is driven by genetics while the other is driven by social factors mainly lust. It's up to you to figure out which is which.*

*^{_{hint some get thirsty before the become drowsy others don't.}}

 

[fromderinside]

If you want to talk about other stuff, look around a bit and see what we usually talk about and join in. Maybe introduce a topic that is not related to your sex life or your wife's body parts. Or yours. Or anybody else's. Or porn.

He can't. Trump syndrome.

Yeah, I know. Thats psychology not philosophy.

 

[ruby sparks]

This is a good topic for the Morals & Principles subforum.

Why was/is masturbation often seen as immoral (to at least some degree)?

I don't know.

It is true that Christianity, for example, has tended to frown on it, and even today it is still considered a sin in many denominations.

My guess is that the answer to the question is multiple. Humans being a social species, we often frown on 'selfish' behaviours. And of course reproduction is the be all and end all 'goal' (consciously intended or otherwise) of every successful species, and one can't generally reproduce by having sex with oneself.

 

[Bronzeage]

Wow. So when your partner is in the can you play with feces? Hmmmmnnn. Where have I seen that before. Some (sic) topics (sic) require mature discussion others don't (sic). this one ........ back in the third grade?

This does not make any sense.

It wasn't supposed to make any mores sense than comparing drinking addiction with sex addiction. I accept they are seen by some as addictions. One is driven by genetics while the other is driven by social factors mainly lust. It's up to you to figure out which is which.*

*^{_{hint some get thirsty before the become drowsy others don't.}}

When did sexual attraction become a socially driven behavior? Are you saying I started to really like girls around age 12 because I saw other boys behaving as if they did?

 

[steve_bank]

Anything can become a habit, then a crutch, then an obsession when you do it compulsively with any understanding why.

Something that in moderation can be good, but it can become self abuse. Alchohol, drugs, sex.

Sex becomes a crutch and something to hide behind.

I have wondered at the end if Hugh Hefner felt satisfied with his life. Even as he got older he surrounded himself with compliant young women and admitted to using Viagra. Was he really happy? Who knows.

About 10 years ago I was doing a lot of computer work at home. I started off taking a beak by watching porn. It grew until I was keeping a window open while I worked. it had become an addiction. I had no idea why I was watching it, oter than a stimulation to keep up fpr the work. Took me weeks to work out of it. Once your brain gets wired into a pleasure feedback loop it is tough.

The antidote is figure out how to feel good without it. I had to think back and remember.

Sex education is abysmal. At least in my generation kids lend sexuality in the neighborhood. I has no sex eduction at school or from a parent. That lack of foundation screwed up relationships in my 20s.

When I was a teen I went into NYC with a friend and they let us into the Metropol Café, one of the first strip clubs in NYC. We ogled paying for expensive drinks. I got into a strip show in a theater on 42nd Street.

In the an sense of adult guidance we assume roles by what we see. Getting to feel a girls tits or your hand between a girls legs was major bragging rights.

It is worse today with all the hyper sexuality in movies and TV. Hard to find a stable point.

 

[fromderinside]

When did sexual attraction become a socially driven behavior? Are you saying I started to really like girls around age 12 because I saw other boys behaving as if they did?

I said abnormal sexual attraction is more dependent on social that hormonal factors. Obviously we are testosterone/estrogen divided beings. It's just that abnormal testosterone nor estrogen are at the base of sex addiction whereas one can predict alcoholism the tendency for one to become sleepy before one becomes thirsty. Masculine males and silky skinned females are not predictors of abnormal sexual appetite nor are penis size nor clitoris location.

 

[fromderinside]

Anything can become a habit, then a crutch, then an obsession when you do it compulsively with any understanding why.

I've read my Ronald Reagan and you are no Ronald Reagan. Common sense is a very bad crutch to use for determining the bases for abnormal behavior.

My first experience in this field was in 1969 which involved chaining a male rat in a chamber where there were two doors leading to females one in heat the other not in heat. The males responded to the females who made the most noise. ... and the chase down the rabbit hole had begun.

 

[steve_bank]

As to the OP title, the idea of normal culturally went out the window starting in the 60s.

Vibrating dildos for women were saold as 'facial massagers' in catalogs.

Today Adam And Eve runs masturbation and sex toy infomersials on mainstream cable channels described in graphic detail. Intersecting butt plugs with a suction cup. Stick it on a wall and you can happily fuck yourself. Go online and look at their site. A large number of female toys. Small battery powered ones you wear during the day with a wire running to a start stop button in your pocket.

There is no longer any stigma for masturbating. Our modern liberal culture allows anyone to abuse themselves to death if it happens. Drugs, drinking tobacco,. The state steps in only if you present a serious short term danger to your self.

The dildo in the 19th century was used by doctors to treat women for tension and anxiety....


Don't have a clue what fromder is saying and what Ronnie Raygun has to do with obsessives masturbation.

 

[Bronzeage]

When did sexual attraction become a socially driven behavior? Are you saying I started to really like girls around age 12 because I saw other boys behaving as if they did?

I said abnormal sexual attraction is more dependent on social that hormonal factors. Obviously we are testosterone/estrogen divided beings. It's just that abnormal testosterone nor estrogen are at the base of sex addiction whereas one can predict alcoholism the tendency for one to become sleepy before one becomes thirsty. Masculine males and silky skinned females are not predictors of abnormal sexual appetite nor are penis size nor clitoris location.

If you can show a connection between some kind of particular sexual attraction which is dependent on social factors, I would like to see that.

 

[steve_bank]

When did sexual attraction become a socially driven behavior? Are you saying I started to really like girls around age 12 because I saw other boys behaving as if they did?

I said abnormal sexual attraction is more dependent on social that hormonal factors. Obviously we are testosterone/estrogen divided beings. It's just that abnormal testosterone nor estrogen are at the base of sex addiction whereas one can predict alcoholism the tendency for one to become sleepy before one becomes thirsty. Masculine males and silky skinned females are not predictors of abnormal sexual appetite nor are penis size nor clitoris location.

If you can show a connection between some kind of particular sexual attraction which is dependent on social factors, I would like to see that.

The is genetic programed attraction and there are cultural norms of attractiveness. Some men are atracted by a lot of makeup and tight pants. Others are not. I prefer women who do not use makeup or scents.

Sume guys like women with big tits, other do not. Personally I thought Stormy Daniels unattractive.

 

[fromderinside]

If you can show a connection between some kind of particular sexual attraction which is dependent on social factors, I would like to see that.

Sound seems to attract male rats. Strong direct eye contact seems to attract western cultural male customers.* Both are dominant sensory modes attended to by males of species. As for the development of eye contact and eye avoidance behavior many studies have linked them to social customs.

[h=1]Attention to Eye Contact in the West and East: Autonomic Responses and Evaluative Ratings https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0059312[/h]

The current study investigated cultural differences (East Asian vs. Western Europeans) in response to eye contact with another (real) person. The results revealed that eye contact elicited stronger heart rate deceleration responses, shorter looking times, and higher ratings of subjective arousal as compared to a face displaying an averted gaze in both cultures. By contrast, cultural differences related to eye contact were observed in various evaluative responses (e.g., facial emotion, approachability etc.) to the models presenting different gaze directions. These results suggest that cultural differences in eye contact behaviour mainly emerge from differential display rules and cultural norms rather than from the effects of culture on the development of behavioural and physiological responses to direct gaze. The rating results suggest that individuals from an East Asian culture perceive another's face as angrier and more unapproachable and unpleasant when making eye contact as compared to individuals from a Western European culture. The rating results also suggest that direct vs. averted gaze can have differential influences on perceptions about another person's facial affect and disposition. Given that eye contact is crucial for daily interpersonal communication, the current results provide unique insight into how we behave in front of others. These results also have the potential for facilitating effective cross-cultural communication. For example, East Asian individuals should not overinterpret the eye contact of Western European individuals as signalling anger, and Western European individuals should tolerate shorter and less frequent eye contact with East Asian individuals, as East Asian individuals might think that long and frequent eye contact could present an unapproachable impression. Further studies are necessary to better understand how cultural norms modulate eye contact behaviours.

*not a formal study. But I did find street walkers, prostitutes in bars and clubs, almost universally sought direct eye contact with potential customers in Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles, Washington DC, New York City, and Atlanta. Successful contact resulted in at least conversation, often contract, in my observations. These informal observations are in line with the results of the study re: eye contact cited above.

There are actually very few studies as robust as the one above and, as far as I can determine, the only one fitting requirements you require.

 

[Bronzeage]

If you can show a connection between some kind of particular sexual attraction which is dependent on social factors, I would like to see that.

Sound seems to attract male rats. Strong direct eye contact seems to attract western cultural male customers.* Both are dominant sensory modes attended to by males of species. As for the development of eye contact and eye avoidance behavior many studies have linked them to social customs.

[h=1]Attention to Eye Contact in the West and East: Autonomic Responses and Evaluative Ratings https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0059312[/h]

The current study investigated cultural differences (East Asian vs. Western Europeans) in response to eye contact with another (real) person. The results revealed that eye contact elicited stronger heart rate deceleration responses, shorter looking times, and higher ratings of subjective arousal as compared to a face displaying an averted gaze in both cultures. By contrast, cultural differences related to eye contact were observed in various evaluative responses (e.g., facial emotion, approachability etc.) to the models presenting different gaze directions. These results suggest that cultural differences in eye contact behaviour mainly emerge from differential display rules and cultural norms rather than from the effects of culture on the development of behavioural and physiological responses to direct gaze. The rating results suggest that individuals from an East Asian culture perceive another's face as angrier and more unapproachable and unpleasant when making eye contact as compared to individuals from a Western European culture. The rating results also suggest that direct vs. averted gaze can have differential influences on perceptions about another person's facial affect and disposition. Given that eye contact is crucial for daily interpersonal communication, the current results provide unique insight into how we behave in front of others. These results also have the potential for facilitating effective cross-cultural communication. For example, East Asian individuals should not overinterpret the eye contact of Western European individuals as signalling anger, and Western European individuals should tolerate shorter and less frequent eye contact with East Asian individuals, as East Asian individuals might think that long and frequent eye contact could present an unapproachable impression. Further studies are necessary to better understand how cultural norms modulate eye contact behaviours.

*not a formal study. But I did find street walkers, prostitutes in bars and clubs, almost universally sought direct eye contact with potential customers in Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles, Washington DC, New York City, and Atlanta. Successful contact resulted in at least conversation, often contract, in my observations. These informal observations are in line with the results of the study re: eye contact cited above.

There are actually very few studies as robust as the one above and, as far as I can determine, the only one fitting requirements you require.

I appreciate the effort, but I don't see any individual's particular sexual attraction being influenced by social pressures in any of this. It would seem social pressures would be more likely to push individuals toward the norm, not the abnorm.

 

[funcouple-husband]

WOW, it is very interesting how this thread has kept going after I got off the forum a few days ago. Good to see!! Well, now that I am back with my own profile, I am going to get caught up on what has been going on and (if you don't mind??) get re-involved with the thread that I started.

 

[funcouple-husband]

This is a good topic for the Morals & Principles subforum.

Why was/is masturbation often seen as immoral (to at least some degree)?

I don't know.

It is true that Christianity, for example, has tended to frown on it, and even today it is still considered a sin in many denominations.

My guess is that the answer to the question is multiple. Humans being a social species, we often frown on 'selfish' behaviours. And of course reproduction is the be all and end all 'goal' (consciously intended or otherwise) of every successful species, and one can't generally reproduce by having sex with oneself.

Why would the act of masturbation be considered selfish if the person doing it is single and has no partner (married or not) that he or she is responsible for satisfying sexually or if they do have a partner is fulfilling both the needs of their partner along with satisfying themselves. No one seems to be getting short changed. Example...if is guy is jacking to porn and has no interest in having sex with his wife, he has a problem.

 

[steve_bank]

People masturbate. People routinely talk about it. It is spouted by a sex toy industry.

Is sticking a dildo in your butt selfish or is it shared with someone? Selfish by yourself. Not selfish if you have someone getting pleasure from shoving it in your butt for you. A simple but obvious dichotomy.

Selfish loner versus somebody who interacts with people.

Masturbation by definition is self gratification. You phantasise about someone who is unattainable. Like Hillary Clinton.

The issue is when it becomes obsessive to the exclusion of other experiences. Or living in a fantasy world.

 

[fromderinside]

Sound seems to attract male rats. Strong direct eye contact seems to attract western cultural male customers.* Both are dominant sensory modes attended to by males of species. As for the development of eye contact and eye avoidance behavior many studies have linked them to social customs.

I appreciate the effort, but I don't see any individual's particular sexual attraction being influenced by social pressures in any of this. It would seem social pressures would be more likely to push individuals toward the norm, not the abnorm.

We're not talking social pressure. I presented information about certain arousal and attending tendencies being influenced by social factors such as acceptance and rejection and attraction and disgust within different social systems. I also said social customs not social pressure.

A perversion of an instinct or genetically derived activity, eye contact, that diverts normal use in a society of linking of attraction and recognition mechanisms instead with sexual arousal rather than attraction or general arousal can be said to be an exhibit of addictive behavior. I'm using the addictive term as compulsive behavior outside normal tendencies to friendship or awareness and recognition. It is not genetic, not hormone based, not instinct based within normal social hierarchies. It is a social mistake.

 

[fromderinside]

Why would the act of masturbation be considered selfish if the person doing it is single and has no partner (married or not) that he or she is responsible for satisfying sexually or if they do have a partner is fulfilling both the needs of their partner along with satisfying themselves. No one seems to be getting short changed. Example...if is guy is jacking to porn and has no interest in having sex with his wife, he has a problem.

It is selfish in a genetic fitness sense. iI is also considered addictive because as you earlier described your practice you do it to the exclusion of other attractive options. I suspect the problem the one has is with how his systems work and how her systems work. In other words they are probably not very fit, have heart problems, are old. Have you ever heard of sublimation?

 

[Bronzeage]

Sound seems to attract male rats. Strong direct eye contact seems to attract western cultural male customers.* Both are dominant sensory modes attended to by males of species. As for the development of eye contact and eye avoidance behavior many studies have linked them to social customs.

I appreciate the effort, but I don't see any individual's particular sexual attraction being influenced by social pressures in any of this. It would seem social pressures would be more likely to push individuals toward the norm, not the abnorm.

We're not talking social pressure. I presented information about certain arousal and attending tendencies being influenced by social factors such as acceptance and rejection and attraction and disgust within different social systems. I also said social customs not social pressure.

A perversion of an instinct or genetically derived activity, eye contact, that diverts normal use in a society of linking of attraction and recognition mechanisms instead with sexual arousal rather than attraction or general arousal can be said to be an exhibit of addictive behavior. I'm using the addictive term as compulsive behavior outside normal tendencies to friendship or awareness and recognition. It is not genetic, not hormone based, not instinct based within normal social hierarchies. It is a social mistake.

I'm just going by this statement:

I said abnormal sexual attraction is more dependent on social that hormonal factors.

 

[steve_bank]

All this talk is making me Horney. Think I'll go on line and order me an escort tonight.Sex for anthing but procreation as prevision is an Abrahamic phenomena mostly.

The RCC says condoms are a sin.

Male chimps will submit to dry humping as a sign of ending a dispute.

Male lions in captivity will dry hump a wall.

Sometimes it builds up and has to be released.

Back in the early 70s I had a girlfriend from the middle class burbs. We were in the shower after sex and she had an epiphany. She exclaimed 'Sex isn't dirty!'. The feeling of sex and doing something wrong is part of the Christian culture in this country.

Along with that is the idea women are not supposed to enjoy sex. When I was growing up women who did could be considered trashy.

The problem we are in heat 24/7 instead of a few months a year.


Personally I think there are limits to what can be considered healthy sexual expression and gratification. Porn where a group of men repeatedly come in the mouth of a usually younger girl says what? I consider it dehumanizing at this point. I Sado masochism and sex. Sexual focus on children. If a woman wants to tied up and whipped while having sex we can say it is her choice. To me it is bizarre and twisted.

 

[fromderinside]

I'm just going by this statement:

I said abnormal sexual attraction is more dependent on social that hormonal factors.

There goes that than thing again.