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The women's march shows it's true colors

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I'm so sorry that you are under the misapprehension that medical research and spending started this decade.

I didn't say it and I don't believe it.

Please try to keep up and try to read a bit of history.

More is being funneled into research of women's health issues because historically (as in: up until very recently) there was scarce research done concerning women's health problems.

More is being funnelled into women's health issues because society cares more for women's health than men's health.

But totally, I get it: The world began when you were born. History and science and culture and politics and sociology all began the instant you noticed them and decided to take notice. I keep forgetting.

Do you think the US guidelines that essentially prevented women being subjects of early drug trials was because researchers didn't care about women? No: it was because researchers thought women of childbearing age were vulnerable and didn't want to subject them to the same risk of negative outcomes that they were willing to subject men to.

You claim medicine had or has a lot of 'catching up' to do. It sure does - for men's health. I'm glad to say there are very recent developments in Australia specifically targeting men's health, including a national strategy (of course it has had a women's strategy for much, much longer).

According to WHO, only three countries in the world (Australia, Brazil, and Ireland) have a national men's health strategy. Perhaps in time other nations can join us.
 
I didn't say it and I don't believe it.



More is being funnelled into women's health issues because society cares more for women's health than men's health.

But totally, I get it: The world began when you were born. History and science and culture and politics and sociology all began the instant you noticed them and decided to take notice. I keep forgetting.

Do you think the US guidelines that essentially prevented women being subjects of early drug trials was because researchers didn't care about women? No: it was because researchers thought women of childbearing age were vulnerable and didn't want to subject them to the same risk of negative outcomes that they were willing to subject men to.

Women were excluded because researchers tended to think that Typical Male = Normal, and women's hormone cycles affected the results. Researchers preferred subjects with less fluctuations in their endocrine systems when gauging the effects of the drugs being tested, but once the drugs were approved for men the money to continue testing dried up. As a result, drug dosages were set to levels appropriate for men, and the interaction between certain drugs and women's hormonal cycles was poorly understood until the drugs were already on the market and women were experiencing more, and worse, side effects.

Do Clinical Trials Have a Sex Problem?

Every cell in our body contains sex-specific DNA. On a biological level, sex informs how our organs operate, how our metabolism works, our cognitive function — everything. But when it comes to biomedical research, data derived from male subjects for diagnoses and treatments has long been considered one-size-fits-all.

Up until the late 1970s , the decades-long Baltimore Longitudinal Study of Aging, one of the world’s longest running studies of aging, followed more than 1,000 men and zero women—even though women represented the majority of the elderly population. The Physicians Health Study, which concluded in 1989 that taking low-dose aspirin might lower your risk for heart disease, included 22,000 men and zero women. And just a few years ago, researchers investigating the possible interactions between libido-boosting drug flibanserin — known as “female Viagra” — and alcohol, used a study group of 25 participants, of which twenty-three were men.

Historically, excluding women in clinical trials has been less about bias, and more so due to a lack of knowledge about the biological differences between men and women and how disease symptoms might present differently based on sex, says Dr. Natalie DiPietro Mager, an associate professor of pharmacy practice at Ohio Northern University and co-author of a recent paper documenting women’s involvement in clinical trials.

While we’ve seen a dramatic shift toward inclusion in the last 25 years, the biomedical research world still has a long way to go in terms of robust representation of women, says Mager.

We recently spoke with Mager about the prevailing sex-based gap in biomedical research and the progress being made in closing it.

Why Women Were Excluded In the First Place

The widespread exclusion of women in clinical research “probably wasn’t fully intentional in so far as thinking that women’s health was less important,” explains Mager. Largely, it was thought that data from men could be applied to women as well.

It was also far easier, many scientists believed, to design and conduct a study composed of only or mostly males, being easier to study because, unlike women, they weren’t subject to frequent hormonal changes. “Fluctuating hormones and differences between male and female study subjects could all complicate the design of the study and the interpretation of the results,” says Mager.
 
I think the glove thing was weird too, but whatever. His implication was that this was an indication of how much women are favored. It's actually an indication of what size glove people in that work area need and prefer.

"The glove thing" was to counter the absurd idea that spaces are built by men and ignore women's needs. If anything, designers seem to be hopeless at catering to human beings that are not from the 1950s.

Examples were given of how spaces, certain types of equipment and a few other things were and are mainly designed by men or often with a typical man in mind. After I agreed that in the case you mentioned (small seats) men were disadvantaged, I prefaced the list of examples by saying 'before we start to make the case that men are disadvantaged in general, the designed world is still often designed for men'.

There is nothing there to suggest that only men are favoured. That is just your perception and imo your over-reaction.

What is missing from your outlook, at least as regards your posting, is balance, in my opinion. I will say to you what I said to Jolly. The more you are willing to reasonably accept about the problems and issues facing women, the more your own reasonable points about men will be accepted in turn. There is no need to react negatively to almost every mention of an issue adversely affecting women 'as if' it was being put to you by an angry, deluded feminist.

Medical science and medical treatment in general is a case in point. There are ways in which it favours women and there are ways in which it favours men.

So for example, if someone says to you, women are more often misdiagnosed for certain illnesses, or, women generally wait longer than men to be prescribed pain relief medication (and/or are more often offered sedatives instead even for the equivalent symptoms) and so on, what is wrong with taking a brief moment to agree (perhaps even partially or only to a degree) with the person making the point and perhaps discuss it with them in a positive way? You can always add counter-examples afterwards if you want to, such as how more money is spent on researching women's ailments, how national health advocacy and policies for men are thinner on the ground and so on. Those can be true, and it can be true that drugs are more often designed with male biology in mind (resulting in adverse reactions by women being 50-75% higher). It's not an either or.

Sometimes, in fact, it wouldn't hurt, and might help, just to take on board an issue raised without necessarily countering straight away. The other person isn't necessarily trying to make the case that only men are favoured and only women are disadvantaged. Sometimes, they just think that issues facing women are too easily dismissed, perhaps my some men. Such as saying that longer toilet queues are merely a natural problem for instance. Even manspreading can be accepted as a phenomenon (with the observation that it's more complicated than is often suggested by some feminists), rather than merely dismissed flippantly.

And when it comes to claims of sexism, it's possible to both agree that sexism may well be one general factor among several involved in something and still say that it's (a) not necessarily sexism and (b) other things instead or as well. Pretty much denying (or countering) claims of sexism at nearly every opportunity is bound to be read, over time, as not being reasonable.

Don't be a one-trick pony. After a while, people notice, they notice what things you tend to regularly complain about and which things you don't even take on board or that you just skip past or merely counter immediately, never mind don't start threads on or or engage meaningfully in discussions about. Also, if you readily agree with only certain things on the basis of anecdote or a magazine article, or what's said in posts, but your default position is to be much more skeptical about others, then that's a double standard. To be consistent, you would try to be either be equally sceptical or equally readily-accepting. Otherwise, you're only going to auto-confirm (ie confirm to yourself) the opinions you already had before starting a conversation.
 
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It's a question when it can be answered no and not insisted that it's yes.

Seriously. Do you have a mental age of 10, or what?

Nothing wrong with that, obviously. I see your point now.

And by the way, if someone says they believe something (about another poster) to be the case, that's not insisting, nor is it telling the other person what to think. Or are you completely stupid? Also, do you enjoy doing anything else other than going on the internet and whinging about being annoyed by Feminists? Are you trying to get back at women because you hate them? In other words, is it vengeance that informs your views? All perfectly legitimate questions, apparently. I'm so glad you enlightened me.

If someone answered your questions with "no, I don't hate women and this isn't vengeance", would you then accept that answer and not ask the same question again?

Or, perhaps it's better not to ask questions and simply make snide asides, like "show me on the doll where the feminist hurt you".

It's ok when they do it. It's never "goading" no matter how many times they call us stupid or childish or reference sexual assault etc. It's always just joking. But if you do the same then it's ban worthy. This is how fucked up this forum has become.
 
[But you keep repeating bullshit in order to assert that women have no agency and to paint us all with the brush you think is insulting and in order to minimize and poison the entire effort.

I don't believe women have no agency. I believe the exact opposite. I hold women equally responsible for their actions and to the same standards that I hold men. I won't treat them differently just because they are women. Some so called feminists here refuse to do that.

You’re just spouting petulant bullshit hoping to bully.

It is adorable that you call me the bully while you foam at the mouth with explatives and agression and demand I be silent.
 
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There is no need to react negatively to almost every mention of an issue adversely affecting women 'as if' it was being put to you by an angry, deluded feminist.

But there is every reason to react negatively when attacked by angry deluded feminists, which is the norm on this forum.

Even manspreading can be accepted as a phenomenon (with the observation that it's more complicated than is often suggested by some feminists), rather than merely dismissed flippantly.

Manspreading and Mansplaining rants are sexist attacks against men. We should dismiss them flippantly. They are both rude behaviours that can and are also done frequently by women. Making them gendered is beligerant and should not be respected. Much like if some guy calls women bitchy if aggressive or "female hysteria; on the rag" etc.
 
Making them gendered is beligerant and should not be respected.

It is generally accepted that dominant/open/'high status'/entitled body postures are and were more often associated with men.

Furthermore, if a woman displays the same 'strong' postures as a man, she is more likely to be judged negatively, because of social norms and expectations. There is therefore pressure on women to adopt more passive or 'weaker' postures.

Dismissing such issues disrespectfully and calling people beligerant for raising them is not warranted or reasonable.
 
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Attributing an individual's negative behaviour to their race or gender with no good reason to do so and generalizing from it is bigotry. You may recognize this if we use women or black people or jewish people as examples.
 
I wonder how many other board members of the Women's march people here could name? Zahra Billoo was only one of 17 elected, I believe. At least one of which is Jewish (a rabbi in fact). I think there were 3 jewish women elected. Ginna Green has said, "I am ready to play a key role in bringing a Jewish voice and Jewish values to the next phase of Women’s March".

Perhaps the movement's 'true colours' are more varied than some suggest.

ETA: for what it's worth, Zahra Billoo has, in addition to making controversial remarks about Israel and Zionism, stated that "anti-semitism is indeed a growing and dangerous problem in our country". So even that issue may be nuanced.
 
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Attributing an individual's negative behaviour to their race or gender with no good reason to do so and generalizing from it is bigotry. You may recognize this if we use women or black people or jewish people as examples.

As ever, this is your neat way to shut down certain issues affecting certain groups from being validly raised and discussed.
 
Attributing an individual's negative behaviour to their race or gender with no good reason to do so and generalizing from it is bigotry. You may recognize this if we use women or black people or jewish people as examples.

As ever, this is your neat way to shut down certain issues from being raised.

No. You can raise any issue you want. I can judge them however I want. When you see an aggressive or over emotional woman do you call her a bitch or link her hysterics to her gender? When you see a black man being violent do you attribute that to his race? How about it a Jew is being cheap? Do you feed into bigoted stereotypes or do you judge behaviors of individuals as behaviors of those individuals without making links to their gender or ethnicity? I would hope the latter. So why do the former with men? If a man is talking over a woman or if he is rudely spreading out to take up seats others want to use, that doesn't necessarily have anything whatsoever to do with his gender, and we should not assume it to as rants about manspreading and Mansplaining invariably do.
 
Ok. It's a neat way to try to prevent certain valid issues being raised and discussed and/or taken seriously.

I am certainly not assuming that a particular man adopting a particular pose is being anything. I have made that explicitly clear. You are attacking a straw man.

Conveniently so, because you would prefer the issue was dismissed or at least not taken seriously.
 
Attributing an individual's negative behaviour to their race or gender with no good reason to do so and generalizing from it is bigotry. You may recognize this if we use women or black people or jewish people as examples.

As ever, this is your neat way to shut down certain issues from being raised.

No. You can raise any issue you want. I can judge them however I want. When you see an aggressive or over emotional woman do you call her a bitch or link her hysterics to her gender? When you see a black man being violent do you attribute that to his race? How about it a Jew is being cheap?
Apparently it comes up in your mind.
 
I am certainly not assuming that a particular man adopting a particular pose is being anything. I have made that explicitly clear. You are attacking a straw man.

Not everything is about you. What I am attacking is the typical manspreading and Mansplaining rant, which you said I shouldn't flippantly dismiss. But I should and I explained to you why. Just as I flippantly dismiss such bigotry against women, blacks or Jews.
 
I am certainly not assuming that a particular man adopting a particular pose is being anything. I have made that explicitly clear. You are attacking a straw man.

Not everything is about you.

Someone is getting personal again!

Jolly_Penguin said:
What I am attacking is the typical manspreading and Mansplaining rant, which you said I shouldn't flippantly dismiss.

How do you know it's typical? In fact, as told to you before, the thread is about the Women's March and so man spreading was something you introduced into the thread. In order for it to be relevant, it'd have to be typical for the Women's March which was your implication. When one goes to the Women's March website, it isn't part of their mission.

Jolly_Penguin said:
But I should and I explained to you why. Just as I flippantly dismiss such bigotry against women, blacks or Jews.

You don't dismiss all bigotry against women. For example, you don't dismiss hasty generalizations attacking feminists or the women's march.
 
I am certainly not assuming that a particular man adopting a particular pose is being anything. I have made that explicitly clear. You are attacking a straw man.

Not everything is about you. What I am attacking is the typical manspreading and Mansplaining rant, which you said I shouldn't flippantly dismiss. But I should and I explained to you why. Just as I flippantly dismiss such bigotry against women, blacks or Jews.

I didn't say it was about me.

But what I am getting at is, you are talking to me, so what is to stop you agreeing with me that manspreading is a valid issue, albeit with the caveats that I have included for?

Do you not want to do it openly in front of the enemy? ;)
 
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In fact, as told to you before, the thread is about the Women's March and so manspreading was something you introduced into the thread.

Indeed. Why was it even brought up, in this thread, one page 1?

Not only was the thread about the Women's March, it was about anti-semitism in the Women's march.

I don't recall any angry feminists bringing up manspreading. Or anyone else other than Jolly.
 
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It is one thing to say that an issue is overblown by some, but quite another to dismiss the issue or not discuss the valid ways in which it is an issue.

And accusing feminists of only being interested in relatively 'small' issues such as this is both a cheap shot and incorrect in any case.

I don't think it's listed on the Women's March manifesto.

Nor is it only women, or feminists, who see the issue as at least slightly problematical.
 
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