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Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

More than anything else, it is just a real pity. (the social/economic/cultural/ethnic issues I mean). America is a great country in so many ways.

It is. But most often what we talk about here are these horrible examples. One of the reasons that we see them as horrible is because we generally do not experience these types of incidents or even witness them first hand. Most of us posting on this forum are white and so we are far less likely to ever be treated this way. Ever. And so it seems as though those who are brutalized in some way must have done something to deserve this treatment. And some of us think the same thing about rape victims.
 
Just like I think Mr. Floyd's past is not relevant to this incident.
It is relevant as it tells us a lot about who George Floyd was as a person.

You mean a person who dies when a cop unnecessarily compresses his carotid artery for several minutes with his knee? That kind of person? Because that is literally the only thing relevant to this situation. It could have been Jeffrey Dahmer on the ground and it STILL wouldn't be relevant to whether or not the cop used unnecessary, excessive force.

If it really were irrelevant, why do you think people with serious records are so over-represented among people killed by police?

That's just too stupid to bother with, even for you.

I think you looking for his criminal record is just another example of smearing the victim.
"Smearing" implies a false accusation. He really was in prison for armed robbery.

Read what LD wrote again.
 
That link said nothing about the effects of knee-on-neck asphyxia,

It's still a fact that he could speak (relatively) normally, so his airway/breathing wasn't restricted.

First, you aren't in any way qualified to make that call. Second, his "airway/breathing" could both be restricted and he could still be able to speak. Third, his "airway/breathing" could both be restricted and he could still be able to speak and neither could be the cause of his death.

Maybe he had trouble respirating due to drugs or a hearth attack. No blood flow, and blood does not get oxygenated.

And most likely he died because the cop had his knee directly compressing Floyd's neck (i.e., his carotid artery) for several minutes for no necessary reason and in spite of the man repeatedly indicating severe distress.
 
Additional footage I had not yet seen of Floyd being handcuffed and placed sitting against a wall. At the end you can see him being taken by the two officers across the street toward their cruiser, apparently, where he would ultimately end up. He is physically complacent and his hands cuffed with his arms behind him the entire time.

Iow, no threat to either officer even if he then subsequently became physical at some point after this footage ends. You can just make out that Floyd apparently trips or drops to the ground and the other cop (the one who didn't drop his knee) picks him up.



Then there is this footage showing four cops total (three subduing him):

[video]https://www.cbsnews.com/video/new-video-shows-minneapolis-police-arrest-of-george-floyd-before-death/#x[/video]

So Floyd was handcuffed with both arms behind him the entire time with four cops surrounding him, so at no point could he have been considered a threat to the officers or anyone else nearby.

At some point, three officers are physically on top of him, with the third cop keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for so long that Floyd's body is visibly limp before being put onto a stretcher.

According to the reporter, medics in the ambulance took Floyd's pulse several times, but did not find one. Iow, he was dead seconds after being put into the ambulance, but officially pronounced dead when they got to the hospital.
 
Just like I think Mr. Floyd's past is not relevant to this incident.
It is relevant as it tells us a lot about who George Floyd was as a person.
The arrest was for something over 13 years ago, so it would a rational person very little (if anything) about Mr. Floyd on the day he died.

Moreover, the police did not know what kind of person Mr. Floyd was. Their disregard for Minneapolis police procedure is clear, regardless of what kind of person Mr. Floyd was.

Finally, why are you not interested in what kind of person those police officers are? Even though the excessive force allegation record for two of them is easily accessible on the internet, you have not bothered to enlighten the posters in this thread, even though you have had plenty of time to do so. That double standard is glaringly obvious.

"Smearing" implies a false accusation. He really was in prison for armed robbery.
You confuse your inference with implication. He was not engaged in armed robbery. What he did 13 years ago is as relevant to his arrest and callous mistreatment by the police as his shoe size or favorite NBA team.

There is no reason to bring it up, except to demean the victim. You are only fooling yourself with your disgraceful apologia.
 
This is my two bit analysis--and worth every penny of it:

Society works well when we have a social contract (or series of social contracts) that we all understand and respect and adhere to. I think that when people are so certain that the police (generic term--not related to Minneapolis) behaved in accordance with the law and all sense of decency in any similar incident, it is because they really believe and are invested in that social contract: Police are here to serve and to protect. If we see someone in custody or about to be taken into custody, our assumption is that person did something wrong. Otherwise, we are all in danger of being taken into custody, ending up on the ground with an officer's knee on our back, our neck, struggling to breathe and to remain calm while trying to breathe. If those we put into positions of power do not uphold their side of the social contract, then we have anarchy (see demonstrations, riots). None of us are safe. We expect our banks to hold our money for us, and to pay it out as we direct--no more, no less. We expect to have access to our money within whatever terms and limits we agreed to when we opened our accounts. Some portion of society is unable or unwilling to agree to that kind of contract and they don't have bank accounts.

The thing is: we all mostly uphold our end of the social contract. We all also break it in small ways or large, that we tell ourselves are harmless. Personally: I tend to drive too fast, a habit I am working on breaking, and one that is easier to break now that I have much less time pressure on me. I always tell/told myself that I'm a good, safe driver and I know what I'm doing. I also made sure that I knew where all the speed traps were. We all know that most traffic accidents and most traffic fatalities are because someone just like me was driving too fast. Frankly, that is the motivation for me to slow the fuck down: I've been very, very careful and I know what I'm doing behind the wheel of my car but I also know that I could have been not so lucky and hurt someone. I would have a hard time living with that and would probably never drive again.

We have some posters here who will reliably support whatever police or police substitute action is taken against anyone, no matter what action that is and no matter whether that action is justified or not. My thesis is that they believe so hard in the social contract that police are here to serve and to protect that they forget that police are as human as all of us. Better with guns than most of us and better at defensive moves, taking down suspects, and other tools of the trade. But because they are people, they sometimes have bad days, weeks, months, years. They sometimes are power hungry or frightened or insecure. Sometimes they feel a little too hard that they have to prove something. Sometimes they have prejudice against certain demographics and act accordingly. They're people, just like you and me. Not better. Not worse. At least on average.
 
Apologies if someone has already posted this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2020/05/27/police-chiefs-react-with-disgust-minneapolis-killing-try-reassure-their-own-cities/


Police chiefs across the United States, many of whom have been pushing their officers to de-escalate tense situations and decrease their use of force, responded with disgust Wednesday to the death of George Floyd after an encounter with Minneapolis officers and moved to reassure their communities that they would not tolerate such brutality.
In years past, police officials probably would have called for full, time-consuming investigations and patience from angry citizens until all the facts were in. Not this time.

“The death of Mr. Floyd is deeply disturbing and should be of concern to all Americans,” said the Major Cities Chiefs, headed by Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo. “The officers’ actions are inconsistent with the training and protocols of our profession and MCCA commends Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo for his swift and decisive action to terminate the employment of the officers involved.”
Minneapolis mayor says officer should face charges over death of George Floyd

Steven R. Casstevens, head of the IACP and chief of the Buffalo Grove, Ill., department, expressed his sympathy to Floyd’s family.
“Law enforcement officers are trained to treat all individuals, whether they are a complainant, suspect, or defendant, with dignity and respect,” Casstevens said in a statement. “This is the bedrock principle behind the concepts of procedural justice and police legitimacy.”

In Miami, Police Chief Jorge Colina issued a video statement on Twitter saying he was “deeply disturbed by what we saw on that video. I stand with Chief Arradondo of the Minneapolis Police Department with the swift action he took once he was made aware of that video.”

Tucson Police Chief Chris Magnus tweeted that the video showed an “indefensible use of force that good officers everywhere are appalled by. … Conduct like this anywhere makes it more difficult for police everywhere to build community trust.”

I think this may be the first time when an act of extreme police brutality that resulted in a death has been so widely condemned by police chiefs around the country. We can just hope that this will finally be the start of better training for police officers and much more accountability when they commit crimes such as the ones that we've seen in Minneapolis.
 
i regret watching the video. I regret reading Derec's posts more. This may be the weakest case yet for a police brutality apologist, and yet there he is beclowing himself frantically. Where's the neg rep when I finally need it?

My point is that we should not be jumping to conclusions. We know next to nothing about what actually happened, not even the cause of death.

We know enough to say Chauvin abused his power. That's true even if Floyd hadn't died. But on cause of death, how much would you be willing to bet that the cause is unrelated to Chauvin's actions? You know what is unrelated to what Chauvin, et al, did? Floyd's prior record. Yet you keep bringing that up as though it matters now. It's so unseemly and just desperate hackery. The police acted unconscionably, period. Accept it.
 
Derec, at some point in his less-than-perfect past, was five years old. Why are you guys talking to a five year old? Anyway, When there is some question as to IF a suspect MIGHT have engaged in some illegal activity leading up to a confrontation, one MIGHT look into the suspect's past. It's the kneejerk response, "he-did-do-something to cause a cop to engage the suspect AT ALL".
In this case, the identity, history, intent, and capability of the handcuffed person on the floor with their neck under a knee while being watched by 4 people does not matter in any possible way whatsoever.


If a person robbed a store when he was 18, then should they not have any civil rights with respect to how law enforcement engages them ever in the future? Or, do they have the same rights as any other citizen in that respect? It's a rehtorical question. Leave this country you apparently hate if you don't get that.
 
Photos: Police responses to George Floyd protests vs. anti-lockdown protests - Vox - "There’s a major difference in how unarmed black protesters were treated in Minneapolis, compared to armed white protesters"

j.d. durkin on Twitter: "the stark — and sickening— differences in police response to the George Floyd protests vs. armed anti-lockdown protests // via @therecount https://t.co/HqcwD8nPZy" / Twitter

𝐄𝐱𝐚𝐯𝐢𝐞𝐫 𝐏𝐨𝐩𝐞 on Twitter: "A tale of two protests shows America’s ugly race problem:
Michigan - white protestors WITH GUNS yell and threaten armed insurrection AGAINST fellow citizens’ safety, nothing done
Minneapolis- diverse, yet mainly black people protesting FOR fellow citizens’ safety, tear gassed https://t.co/ieDvJOFSDn" / Twitter


Reminds me of the Weimar Republic, Germany, 1919-33. It had a much stronger response to the Left than to the Right. Like crushing the Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919, but having a very weak response to the Kapp Putsch, also that year. The Kapp Putsch was for restoring the sort of government that prewar Germany had. In 1923, it had a weak response to another right-wing coup attempt, the Beer Hall Putsch in Munich. Its leader was put on trial, but he was allowed to rant at length about how he was a simple German patriot who wanted to encourage a rebellion against the real traitors, the leaders of the Weimar Republic. They had stabbed Germany in the back by surrendering to the Western Allies. He was sentenced to 5 years in prison, but he served less than 1 year, in a room with a nice view in Landsberg Castle.
 
I like this.
josie duffy rice on Twitter: "many people in america already exist in a world where police and prisons do not exist. ..." / Twitter
many people in america already exist in a world where police and prisons do not exist. go to any middle to upper class suburb in america. cops arent wandering the streets. people aren’t being arrested. neighbors aren’t being sent to prison. and generally everyone is....fine. many people say they cannot imagine this world. what most of them cannot imagine is someone not policing black brown and poor people. THAT is what is unimaginable to them. not the absence of law enforcement. if you are lucky, you already functionally life with that absence. so how are these places without cops on every corner surviving? well. those places are more like to have people with decent jobs, access to housing, quality schools. it turns out that when people have the tools they need to survive, we can rely less on punishment.

police are a back end solution, and functionally, they actually have nothing to do with most incidents that involve behavior that could legally be categorized as criminal. experts estimate that around 40% of violent crime and 30% of property crime is even reported. now imagine what percent of drug crime is reported. virtually none. ESPECIALLY in the suburbs. no one is calling them cops on your teenage neighbor for getting high in his bedroom. so, even at baseline, cops are simply NOT INVOLVED IN THE RESOLUTION OF MOST “CRIMINAL” INCIDENTS. So let’s take the crime that IS reported. How much of that is actually solved? Well given cops only solve 60% of murders, much less than that in big cities.....NOT MUCH. We solve less than half of violent crimes, MAYBE 20% of property crimes. And again, depends on where you live.

Look, the point here is this -

It is extremely easy for some of you to imagine that the George Floyds are a tragic cost of doing necessary business, and that a looted Target is simply evidence of a need for more correctional control. You may not want to come to that conclusion, but there it is anyway. BUT. the opposite is true. when a system insists on ‘keeping the peace’ through death, racism, and control, no one is going to give a single fuck about the structural integrity of your corporate big box store. when your care, respect, or concern for people is nonexistent, this is a predictable result. if the law is not for you, why the fuck should the law be for us?

here’s the last point. a major chunk of the people saying “why don’t they just follow the law” are the same people applauding mostly white people for flagrantly defying orders to wear masks, or stay inside. many of you have never been closely policed in your natural lives, and when a pandemic meant you had to do something you didn’t want to do, you refused. so maybe keep that same energy when you look at people throwing rocks into a target store. i can hear the betsy sues now, the ones who believe they have a god given right to breathe on strangers at the town bar, shaking their heads in disappointment at “looters.” listen: we all have our limits. your limit may be wearing a mask in the midst of a once-in-a-century medical disaster. the people taking stuff from target? maybe their limit is watching a cop kill a man as he cries out for his mama. now who is more reasonable?
Yes, they get very selective about law and order. People they dislike must follow laws interpreted very strictly, while they don't ever have to follow any laws that they don't want to follow.
 
Which would have to be determined at the autopsy. So why not wait for it?

lol Like you are willing to wait to hear facts of the accusations in this or any case—if we’re talking about someone not a cop and accused of a crime.

Regardless: A man in police custody indicated he was experiencing serious medical distress. The police officers had an absolute duty to ensure the safety of the man in custody. They had a duty to protect him just as they had a duty to protect the people of Minneapolis.

The correct thing to do was to switch tactics: allow the suspect to roll over on his back or to sit up. Medical
Attention should have been sought immediately. The man would still have been in custody.

May I remind you that he was [bold/]accused [/bold] of a non-violent crime? Passing a bad [bold/] twenty dollar[/bold] bill. Not armed robbery. Not any kind of violence.

So do tasers, and yet they are allowed.

And placing pressure on necks is not. That is an important difference.

But if your point was that tasers are dangerous and used too often and sometimes inappropriately which sometimes results in serious injury and death: point well taken. I agree 100%.

Officers failing to acknowledge the medical distress expressed by the person that was in their custody?
It sucks, but is somewhat understandable given that many arrestees are faking it.

That is no excuse! The worst that could have happened is that someone who is faking gets an unnecessary check by some EMTs.

Beats the hell out of a trip to the coroners. For everybody.
 
Photos: Police responses to George Floyd protests vs. anti-lockdown protests - Vox - "There’s a major difference in how unarmed black protesters were treated in Minneapolis, compared to armed white protesters"

The antilockdown protesters protested. They did not burn down an Autozone. They did not loot a Target. They did not violently attack a police precinct.

But to idiots writing for Vox, the only difference is race. SMH.

Reminds me of the Weimar Republic, Germany, 1919-33. It had a much stronger response to the Left than to the Right. Like crushing the Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919, but having a very weak response to the Kapp Putsch, also that year.

Remember that a major country (Russia) was taken over by the Bolsheviks just a year earlier, and that communists actually took over a major city (Munich, as the "Soviet Bavarian Republic" you mentioned), so it is quite understandable they were seen as a much more clear and present danger than the Right at that time.

The Kapp Putsch was for restoring the sort of government that prewar Germany had.
Which is a far less extreme goal than the goal of establishing a Communist dictatorship like Russia had just fallen to.


In 1923, it had a weak response to another right-wing coup attempt, the Beer Hall Putsch in Munich. Its leader was put on trial, but he was allowed to rant at length about how he was a simple German patriot who wanted to encourage a rebellion against the real traitors, the leaders of the Weimar Republic. They had stabbed Germany in the back by surrendering to the Western Allies. He was sentenced to 5 years in prison, but he served less than 1 year, in a room with a nice view in Landsberg Castle.
And he wasn't even really German, but Austrian. :tonguea:

But these two things are not comparable. There is a difference between peaceful protests, even if they involve firearm displays, and violent rioting and looting that we have been seeing in Mineapolis, with the Frey regime not doing nearly enough to restore order.
Instead, a store owners was arrested merely for trying to defend his livelihood from looters.
Lake Street burned, looted in chaotic night; pawn shop owner arrested for murder
City Pages said:
One man was shot and killed outside Cadillac Pawn and Jewelry, the Star Tribune reports. Police spokesman John Elder told reporters the department is "truly in the infancy of its investigation" into the shooting death. The victim's name and age are not yet public.

John Rieple, 59 and listed on LinkedIn as Cadillac's owner, was arrested and booked into Hennepin County Jail on suspicion of murder around 2 a.m. last night.

Businesses damaged or looted along Lake Street include Target, Cub Foods, U.S. Bank, Wells Fargo, and an Aldi, as documented by independent journalist Tony Webster's Twitter survey of the damage Thursday morning. An AutoZone store and a Dollar General were both set on fire.
 
The correct thing to do was to switch tactics: allow the suspect to roll over on his back or to sit up. Medical
Attention should have been sought immediately. The man would still have been in custody.

I agree that that would have been a better course of action. Doesn't mean that it was the officer who caused Floyd's death.

That is no excuse! The worst that could have happened is that someone who is faking gets an unnecessary check by some EMTs.
The problem is that when it happens a lot you get the "boy who cried wolf" situation.

Beats the hell out of a trip to the coroners. For everybody.
Obviously.
 

It is an illusion to think that you can make prisons obsolete just by having these bullet points. Good neighborhoods are not good merely by happenstance, but to a large extent due to the people living there.
 

Totally not true. This Josie Duffy (whoever she is) is talking out of her ass.

many people in america already exist in a world where police and prisons do not exist. go to any middle to upper class suburb in america. cops arent wandering the streets.
How so? There is more police presence in higher crime areas, but there definitely is police patrolling safer, more affluent neighborhoods. They would not stay safe for long if they didn't!

people aren’t being arrested.
A blatant lie. Hardly worth commenting on the rest of her anti-police drivel.
 
I agree that that would have been a better course of action. Doesn't mean that it was the officer who caused Floyd's death.

At the very least, the officers failed in their duty to the man in custody. Video seems to indicate that the officer’s actions precipitated whatever sequence of medical events: asthma attack, heart attack, whatever. The officer would at least be culpable in Floyd’s death.

The problem is that when it happens a lot you get the "boy who cried wolf" situation.

So what? As we both agreed:

Beats the hell out of a trip to the coroners. For everybody.
Obviously.
 
Totally not true. This Josie Duffy (whoever she is) is talking out of her ass.


How so? There is more police presence in higher crime areas, but there definitely is police patrolling safer, more affluent neighborhoods. They would not stay safe for long if they didn't!

people aren’t being arrested.
A blatant lie. Hardly worth commenting on the rest of her anti-police drivel.

She makes some good points. I’ve never even received a traffic ticket although I’ve been pulled over while exceeding the speed limit. I’ve inadvertently shoplifted and all that happened when I walked back into the store with the merchandise I had accidentally not paid for was that I was thanked. I worried about my son going out at night and getting pulled over but I never considered that a failure to signal a turn might mean he was arrested or worse: dead. In my neighborhood? If there are lots of loud drunk college students (who sometimes cause properly damage or occasionally get into fights or occasionally die of acute alcohol poinsoning) I know that I can call the police who will disperse the crowds.

Why should not every person be able to have the same expectations?
 
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