Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

[repoman]

Black men like Daniel Shaver

 

[Trausti]

Black men like Daniel Shaver

He doesn’t fit the Narrative.

 

[ZiprHead]

Black men like Daniel Shaver

He doesn’t fit the Narrative.

Poor choice for a hero.

Shaver was witnessed firing a rifle out of a hotel room window right after the Las Vegas massacre. He was armed. The cops that shot him shouldn't have, way too trigger happy.

There are plenty of great white hope heroes out there for you to choose from.

 

[ruby sparks]

All of that means that the police in Minneapolis used force against black people at a rate at least seven times that of white people during the past five years.

Wow. Times 7.

My (overseas) take on that is:

I would not be surprised if some of it, possibly even much of it, was due to non-racist factors, and/or factors that the black communities need to address or at least acknowledge themselves. Which would leave room for at least some racism. And I don't necessarily just mean out-and-out strong racism. Some could be merely mild or implicit. It would only be some officers, and so on. But my guess is that anyone who says that particular ethnic group have no good reason to feel hard done by is probably getting it wrong, imo. And I say that while thinking a lot of progress has been made during my lifetime (some of which might have been reversed this last few years perhaps).

Trying to understand what you wrote...

"Wow. That's a lot. It's probably their own fault. Maybe they have a little point. But it's not as bad as it used to be anyway."


It didn't feel good.

I think you mischaracterise what I said.

 

[ruby sparks]

Here's another good question, imho. Why are the current protests so widespread across the USA (and indeed involving actors of more than one race or socioeconomic group)?

Obviously, I would not expect that there are simple answers. Quite the opposite.

And whatever way you slice it, America has gone backwards since Obama, imo, and it is a great pity, because America is in many ways still a great country, and seemed to be improving as regards the relevant issues here. Until the backlash and the swing back to the right.

The protests are widespread for a few reasons.

1) Black poverty is widespread. Apparently centuries of repression couldn't be resolved in just a few decades. Some people like to blame blacks for the crime and violence (generalized, not about the protests)... and yes, there is no excuse for crime and violence... it is an indicator of poverty, not race. Much like how blacks die from cancers more often than whites or that blacks are dying more often from COVID-19 than whites. People think blacks are more susceptible to COVID-19 as well as committing crime? No... it's the poverty.

2) Systemic bias is widespread. While there is racism, I think that systemic bias is the much bigger problem, ie playing the odds. Some black guy trying to force his way into a nice home... must be a robber, not a professor at Harvard. Or these nice white guys say the black guy lunged at them, and him being black and them being white, this is a viable explanation from people that'd go to prison if they admitted to reckless actions that caused a death.

3) No one is listening... is widespread. We've seen the videos of evidence being planted, officers needlessly shooting, etc... This stuff has been alleged for a while. And this particular case, the officer had lots of complaints against him... but no one listened to those complaining, and because of that, someone is dead. People are tired of being ignored across the country. And the culture in the Police needs adjusting.

Those all seem like plausible contributing factors yes.

 

[Toni]

Black men like Daniel Shaver

He doesn’t fit the Narrative.

It was still an unjustified/unjustifiable police shooting resulting in the death of an unarmed man innocent and unaccused of any criminal activity.

Folks, we have got to start holding police accountable.

We have got to do a much better job screening LEO for mental health issues/suitable temperament for this high stress, dangerous job.

We have got to start getting LEO much better training including deescalation.

We have got to stop arming LEO to the teeth.

In the case of the shooting of Shaver, he was given multiple contradictory orders any of which made the next order impossible to comply with.

 

[ruby sparks]

All of that means that the police in Minneapolis used force against black people at a rate at least seven times that of white people during the past five years.

Wow. Times 7.

My (overseas) take on that is:

I would not be surprised if some of it, possibly even much of it, was due to non-racist factors, and/or factors that the black communities need to address or at least acknowledge themselves. Which would leave room for at least some racism. And I don't necessarily just mean out-and-out strong racism. Some could be merely mild or implicit. It would only be some officers, and so on. But my guess is that anyone who says that particular ethnic group have no good reason to feel hard done by is probably getting it wrong, imo. And I say that while thinking a lot of progress has been made during my lifetime (some of which might have been reversed this last few years perhaps).

Of purse you wouldn’t be surprised. It’s so much easier to believe that oppressed people bring their oppression on themselves.

Here’s the truth: no one person and no group is perfect.

So what?

You do not need be be perfect to be deserving of equal protection under the law.

You do not need to be perfect to deserve not have police officers kneel on your neck until you are dead.

You do not need to be perfect to deserve to know that your children will be treated with the same fairness, courtesy, respect and sense of wonder and promise and ability as any other child in school, in the community, in the world.

You do not need to be perfect to believe that your child can play in a park without being shot to death by police. Or in your bed. Or at a traffic stop. Or because some police officer thinks that they can tell that you robbed a store last week.

You do not need to be perfect to be treated as a fellow human being. As though your life matters.

I have very little idea what you are on about, apart from noting that you too are mischaracterising what I said.

 

[Toni]

Black men like Daniel Shaver

He doesn’t fit the Narrative.

Poor choice for a hero.

Shaver was witnessed firing a rifle out of a hotel room window right after the Las Vegas massacre. He was armed. The cops that shot him shouldn't have, way too trigger happy.

There are plenty of great white hope heroes out there for you to choose from.

Here's the WIKI. It seems quite an unjustified shooting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver

Shooting
According to a police report, Shaver had been staying at a Mesa La Quinta Inn & Suites on business.[9] He invited two acquaintances, Monique Portillo and Luis Nunez, to his room for drinks. There he showed them a scoped air rifle he was using to exterminate birds inside grocery stores. At one point, the gun was pointed outside his fifth-floor window, prompting a witness to notify the hotel receptionist; the police were immediately called.[3][10]

Nunez left the hotel room shortly before police arrived at about 9:20 p.m.[8] When police arrived at the hotel, they ordered Shaver and Portillo to exit the room. Six officers in the hotel corridor pointed weapons at them and gave them orders for several minutes with frequent warnings that failing to comply with them would get them shot.[11] Portillo was taken into custody unharmed.[12]

Police Sergeant Charles Langley then ordered Shaver, who was lying prone, to cross his legs. Moments later, he ordered Shaver to push himself "up to a kneeling position." While complying with the order to kneel, Shaver uncrossed his legs and Langley shouted that Shaver needed to keep his legs crossed. Startled, Shaver then put his hands behind his back and was again warned by Langley to keep his hands in the air. Langley yelled at Shaver that if he deviated from police instructions again, they would shoot him. Sergeant Langley told Shaver not to put his hands down for any reason. Shaver said, "Please don't shoot me". Upon being instructed to crawl, Shaver put his hands down and crawled on all fours. While crawling towards the officers, Shaver paused and moved his right hand towards his waistband. Officer Philip Brailsford, who later testified he believed that Shaver was reaching for a weapon, then opened fire with his AR-15 rifle, striking Shaver five times and killing him almost instantly. Shaver was unarmed, and may have been attempting to prevent his shorts from slipping down.[13][14][15][16] An autopsy report found that Shaver was intoxicated, with a blood-alcohol level over three times the legal driving limit, which police stated may have contributed to his confused response to their commands.[17][18]

 

[ZiprHead]

Black men like Daniel Shaver

He doesn’t fit the Narrative.

Here's a better one for you.

Show

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/HalnE5mZIJ8[/YOUTUBE]

Here the details of the shooting above.

 

[ruby sparks]

I was very relieved to hear that the charges were upgraded to 2nd degree murder. I've been explaining to friends all week that that would be the most appropriate charge, given the circumstances. I looked up all the different degrees of murder in Minnesota and 2nd degree murder seems the best. Of course, the other police needed to be charged as well. Manslaughter seems to fit in those cases. I explained to a black friend of mine that it would be impossible to prove 1st digress murder, as there is really no evidence that this was premeditated. I hope that justice will finally be served when this goes to trial. So many police have gotten off after killing unarmed black men.

The different murder degrees thing is complicated, it seems. What if...they charge him at too high a degree for the case to be won (higher degree raises the bar I would think)? Can he then be found guilty of a lesser degree, during the same trial, or does he get off? I do not of course know the answers to these questions.

My own view is that there does not seem to be enough to convict for (what I generally understand as) murder. Nor am I sure I've seen a relevant wording for 2nd or 3rd degree murder that seems to cover this? I stand to be corrected.

Given that in the last 5 years, Minneapolis police apparently resorted to this sort of restraint 200 times and that in 44 cases the person restrained lost consciousness, I would have thought that it would be easy for Chauvin to say he unintentionally and with bad judgement went too far compared to those. And indeed that this is what happened seems very plausible to me.

Is there a category 'negligent homicide'? That sounds as if it might fit. Imo, he clearly killed him and was negligent.

 

[Trausti]

Black men like Daniel Shaver

He doesn’t fit the Narrative.

Here's a better one for you.

Show

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/HalnE5mZIJ8[/YOUTUBE]

Here the details of the shooting above.

Fascinating. Not once does the article mention the race of the police officers or the guy shot. Hence, the Narrative.

 

[ZiprHead]

I was very relieved to hear that the charges were upgraded to 2nd degree murder. I've been explaining to friends all week that that would be the most appropriate charge, given the circumstances. I looked up all the different degrees of murder in Minnesota and 2nd degree murder seems the best. Of course, the other police needed to be charged as well. Manslaughter seems to fit in those cases. I explained to a black friend of mine that it would be impossible to prove 1st digress murder, as there is really no evidence that this was premeditated. I hope that justice will finally be served when this goes to trial. So many police have gotten off after killing unarmed black men.

The different murder degrees thing is complicated, it seems. What if...they charge him at too high a degree for the case to be won (higher degree raises the bar I would think)? Can he then be found guilty of a lesser degree, during the same trial, or does he get off? I do not of course know the answers to these questions.

My own view is that there does not seem to be enough to convict for (what I generally understand as) murder. Nor am I sure I've seen a relevant wording for 2nd or 3rd degree murder that seems to cover this? I stand to be corrected.

Given that in the last 5 years, Minneapolis police apparently resorted to this sort of restraint 200 times and that in 44 cases the person restrained lost consciousness, I would have thought that it would be easy for Chauvin to say he unintentionally and with bad judgement went too far compared to those. And indeed that this is what happened seems very plausible to me.

Is there a category 'negligent homicide'? That sounds as if it might fit. Imo, he clearly killed him and was negligent.

609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or

(2) causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to commit a drive-by shooting in violation of section 609.66, subdivision 1e, under circumstances other than those described in section 609.185, paragraph (a), clause (3).

§Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

 

[Trausti]

Oh, dear. Is this an overcharge? What is the underlying felony?

 

[Toni]

Of purse you wouldn’t be surprised. It’s so much easier to believe that oppressed people bring their oppression on themselves.

Here’s the truth: no one person and no group is perfect.

So what?

You do not need be be perfect to be deserving of equal protection under the law.

You do not need to be perfect to deserve not have police officers kneel on your neck until you are dead.

You do not need to be perfect to deserve to know that your children will be treated with the same fairness, courtesy, respect and sense of wonder and promise and ability as any other child in school, in the community, in the world.

You do not need to be perfect to believe that your child can play in a park without being shot to death by police. Or in your bed. Or at a traffic stop. Or because some police officer thinks that they can tell that you robbed a store last week.

You do not need to be perfect to be treated as a fellow human being. As though your life matters.

I have very little idea what you are on about, apart from noting that you too are mischaracterising what I said.

How am I mischaracterizing what you wrote?

You wrote :

I would not be surprised if some of it, possibly even much of it, was due to non-racist factors, and/or factors that the black communities need to address or at least acknowledge themselves.

But were kind enough to add:

Which would leave room for at least some racism.

I realize that in your country, there is an entirely different history of race relations. You do not have the same history of enslaving people and treating them as property, as less than you would cattle or sheep. You do not have a history of not allowing people of certain races to vote or to go to the same schools as other people, or using different water fountains or hospitals or dozens of other dehumanizing laws and customs and behaviors that existed in the US within my lifetime--and the scars of which have not been healed and are plainly visible.

But that's what we're dealing with here in the US. We have black professors who have the police called on them for trying to walk into their own homes. We have black people shot in their own beds while sleeping or through the windows of their homes for no reason other than the police made a mistake. We have police killing 12 year olds playing in the park--and not being charged! Shooting a child within 5 seconds of arriving on the scene WHERE THEY WERE TOLD IT WAS PROBABLY A CHILD PLAYING AND NO SHOTS WERE FIRED.

Someone on this forum , I don't remember who, has referred to Trump as our National Shame, and I've taken to doing the same. But honestly: our real National Shame is our history of slavery, genocide against Native Americans and the horrendously unequal treatment of citizens who are not white.

 

[ruby sparks]

How am I mischaracterizing what you wrote?

I did not say or suggest that oppressed people bring their oppression on themselves, that's how.

 

[Trausti]

How am I mischaracterizing what you wrote?

I did not say or suggest that oppressed people bring their oppression on themselves, that's how.

Didn’t you imply that Black people have agency for their own actions?

 

[laughing dog]

Of purse you wouldn’t be surprised. It’s so much easier to believe that oppressed people bring their oppression on themselves.

Here’s the truth: no one person and no group is perfect.

So what?

You do not need be be perfect to be deserving of equal protection under the law.

You do not need to be perfect to deserve not have police officers kneel on your neck until you are dead.

You do not need to be perfect to deserve to know that your children will be treated with the same fairness, courtesy, respect and sense of wonder and promise and ability as any other child in school, in the community, in the world.

You do not need to be perfect to believe that your child can play in a park without being shot to death by police. Or in your bed. Or at a traffic stop. Or because some police officer thinks that they can tell that you robbed a store last week.

You do not need to be perfect to be treated as a fellow human being. As though your life matters.

I have very little idea what you are on about, apart from noting that you too are mischaracterising what I said.

Really, it seems pretty self-explanatory.

Your introduction - I would not be surprised if some of it, possibly even much of it, was due to non-racist factors, and/or factors that the black communities need to address or at least acknowledge themselves - can reasonably be read to mean that blacks are not being oppressed due to their race. It may not be what you meant, but it does lend to that interpretation.

Toni's response is pretty much self-explanatory - that everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity regardless of their level of perfection or imperfection.

 

[Deepak]

Black men like Daniel Shaver

He doesn’t fit the Narrative.

Poor choice for a hero.

Shaver was witnessed firing a rifle out of a hotel room window right after the Las Vegas massacre. He was armed. The cops that shot him shouldn't have, way too trigger happy.

There are plenty of great white hope heroes out there for you to choose from.

Don't fall for the bullshit - their point is that they didn't hear about Daniel Shaver at the time on Stormf their right wing news sources.

https://heavy.com/news/2016/03/dani...ng-wife-laney-sweet-facebook-daughters-video/
https://heavy.com/news/2017/12/daniel-shaver-philip-brailsford-mesa-police-shooting-video-full/

Apart from using his corpse as a prop to foment their race w convince people to live in their own ethnostates neither of them gives a damn about Shaver, his death, or accountability for his unnecessary killing

 

[ruby sparks]

- can reasonably be read to mean that blacks are not being oppressed due to their race.

Bollocks it can.

 

[Toni]

How am I mischaracterizing what you wrote?

I did not say or suggest that oppressed people bring their oppression on themselves, that's how.

I apologize if I misunderstood the following from your earlier post:

I would not be surprised if some of it, possibly even much of it, was due to non-racist factors, and/or factors that the black communities need to address or at least acknowledge themselves

So, how did you mean that statement?