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Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

Getting back to the issue of what defenses Derek Chauvin could offer, I can't help but think of the beating of Rodney King in the 1990's. He was stopped for something or other, and the cops ended up beating him -- several cops standing around him. Their lawyers made the argument that he wasn't really being beaten with a truncheon, that he was being tapped with it.

I'm concerned that Chauvin's lawyers will offer an equally implausible defense -- and claim that it must be taken seriously.

Or else they will do venue-shopping to try to get the case tried in some place where jurors might side with the cops -- something that also happened in the Rodney King case.
 
White House chief of staff gives Ivanka Trump "credit" for photo-op where tear gas was used: report | Salon.com - "Ivanka was spotted transporting the Bible her dad hoisted like a WWE championship belt in a $1,540 MaxMara handbag"

noting
How Trump’s Idea for a Photo Op Led to Havoc in a Park - The New York Times

Trump’s Bible photo op splits white evangelical loyalists into two camps | US news | The Guardian
His most ardent evangelical supporters saw it as a blow against evil and described his walk from the White House to St John’s Episcopal church, over ground violently cleared of protesters, as a “Jericho walk”.

...
But evangelicals are not monolithic: some saw the gesture as cynical, a ploy by a president whose decisions, both private and public, do not align with biblical principles.
 
The protests are widespread for a few reasons.

1) Black poverty is widespread. Apparently centuries of repression couldn't be resolved in just a few decades. Some people like to blame blacks for the crime and violence (generalized, not about the protests)... and yes, there is no excuse for crime and violence... it is an indicator of poverty, not race. Much like how blacks die from cancers more often than whites or that blacks are dying more often from COVID-19 than whites. People think blacks are more susceptible to COVID-19 as well as committing crime? No... it's the poverty.

2) Systemic bias is widespread. While there is racism, I think that systemic bias is the much bigger problem, ie playing the odds. Some black guy trying to force his way into a nice home... must be a robber, not a professor at Harvard. Or these nice white guys say the black guy lunged at them, and him being black and them being white, this is a viable explanation from people that'd go to prison if they admitted to reckless actions that caused a death.

3) No one is listening... is widespread. We've seen the videos of evidence being planted, officers needlessly shooting, etc... This stuff has been alleged for a while. And this particular case, the officer had lots of complaints against him... but no one listened to those complaining, and because of that, someone is dead. People are tired of being ignored across the country. And the culture in the Police needs adjusting.
Exactly !! Socioeconomic status is the variable, not race !

"ItS SoCiOEcOnOmIc!!"

Socioeconomic factors in cities fairly tightly correlate with race.

Humans are infamously known for conflating correlation with causation, and using bad "proxies" that are easy to discern in lieu of harder-to-observe underlying causes (you can see when someone is black; you cannot see when someone is poor.). This is the very definition of prejudice and racism.

You can't honestly expect any rational, critically thinking person to buy, given the knowledge of this historically consistent effect, that the effect just magically disappeared from the human psyche.

In fact it has been studied many times and when people in various occupations making decisions on what homes to show or what products to offer, or even asked whether the person they saw is a criminal, even when controlling for socioeconomic factors, sometimes when people are directly aware of socioeconomic factors at the outset, direct black people to lesser "more affordable" options, away from "white neighborhoods", towards shittier products, or impugn them as criminals.

It's almost like when you have such campaigns as "around blacks, never relax", people wil take that to heart no matter how fucking racist that is.

And as it stands, studies indicate that actual criminal acts are committed at roughly equal rates per capital. The correlation people draw mirrors the imbalance in enforcement by cops. It's not that black people commit more crimes, but cops have historically enforced more vigorously against the black community, because the previous generation of cops arrested more black people... And so on, due to momentum carried all the way back to the days of race based slavery.
 
Well here's my response to that claim: Why are Black people crowded in the cities and poorer than Whites on average? The reasons are historic and modern racism. So, if one wants to claim that the proximal cause and differences are due to economics, I will counter that those ALLEGED proximal causes are due to racism as the ROOT cause. And so, it's still racism in that hypothetical that economics is the current variable at play.
 
Poor choice for a hero.

Shaver was witnessed firing a rifle out of a hotel room window right after the Las Vegas massacre. He was armed. The cops that shot him shouldn't have, way too trigger happy.

There are plenty of great white hope heroes out there for you to choose from.

I don't care about "hero" or whatever, but a lot of your info is wrong. He was witnessed aiming an air-rifle out of a window. He was unarmed when the police showed up. He failed to comply with confusing instructions from the cops, and was consequently shot dead.

It was still a case of seriously overzealous cops, regardless of Shaver's ethinicity.
 
It was still an unjustified/unjustifiable police shooting resulting in the death of an unarmed man innocent and unaccused of any criminal activity.

Folks, we have got to start holding police accountable.

Actually, the cop who shot him was charged with second degree murder, and went to trial. He was acquitted. It's an unsatisfactory result, in my opinion, but the Maricopa DA did investigate and take him to trial... although they waited a couple of months before charging him, which is also unsatisfactory.
 
Looking at these categories, I'm concerned that the prosecutors may not be able to make a good case for second-degree murder -- deliberate but unplanned homicide. At the very least they ought to charge Officer Derek Chauvin with manslaughter -- negligent homicide. That is because DC's lawyer may argue that his client had no idea that he was going to kill George Floyd, that all his client wanted to do is knock out GF so that he would be less troublesome.

I'm trying to think like some sleazy lawyer.

I think that the prosecution ought to have negligent homicide as a fallback charge.

A fallback charge might not be a bad idea, but I think jury selection will probably be important. I dunno, maybe I'm biased, but I can't see how any semi-rational human would accept that cutting off a man's air supply for 9 minutes, several of those well after he'd lost consciousness and stopped moving altogether, could fall under "I just wanted to knock him out". Because, you know... you knocked him out at about 4 minutes... so why did you stay on his neck for the other 5????
 
It was still an unjustified/unjustifiable police shooting resulting in the death of an unarmed man innocent and unaccused of any criminal activity.

Folks, we have got to start holding police accountable.

Actually, the cop who shot him was charged with second degree murder, and went to trial. He was acquitted. It's an unsatisfactory result, in my opinion, but the Maricopa DA did investigate and take him to trial... although they waited a couple of months before charging him, which is also unsatisfactory.

Acquitting officers is not the same thing as holding them accountable when acquittal is the nearly forgone conclusion.

LEO are not held to the same standards in terms of treatment when accused of ANY crime, much less crimes committed while on duty. I do understand that when you know someone and identify with them and put yourself in their place, knowing the pressures and repercussions they face, we tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. But it seems to flow too hard in one direction for LEOs and not so much for ordinary people of the wrong color taking a jog in the wrong neighborhood.
 
I don't know which thread to post this in, but I guess this is as good as any. Especially since there is no dedicated weather forum.

 
Here's a really good question deserving of a proper, thorough and comprehensive answer.

Why were those BLM protesters chanting those things? How does a society get to a place where some people do that?

How did Germany turn to Hitler? Einstein emigrated because he said his country had gone mad.

1) Black poverty is widespread.

2) Systemic bias is widespread.

3) No one is listening... is widespread.

Thank-you. Pretty much nails it.
 
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "The anniversary of Tiananmen Square comes as many Americans are risking their own lives against state sanctioned violence & oppression. As we support those abroad who are struggling for democracy & freedom of expression, it’s important to also take a look at our own shortcomings." / Twitter

Bree Newsome Bass on Twitter: "Notice how conservatives use the language of “coup” and “insurrection” to describe Black people challenging structural racism." / Twitter[/url

On the other side, Candace Owens has recently snickered over the armed robbery that George Floyd once committed several years ago. He spent 5 years in jail for that.

[url=https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/us/floyd-memorial-funeral.html]Mourners Gather to Remember George Floyd in Minneapolis Memorial - The New York Times
- "The Rev. Al Sharpton was to deliver the eulogy in a memorial that was to be followed in coming days by events in Mr. Floyd’s memory in North Carolina and Texas."

Trudeau’s 21-Second Pause Becomes the Story in Canada - The New York Times - "Prime Minister Justin Trudeau struggled to find the words to answer a question about President Trump’s response to the protests roiling the United States."

What he said: “We all watch in horror and consternation what’s going on in the United States.”
Most of the country’s horror has been focused on President Trump. Even the country’s conservative newspapers were filled with columns like one by Gary Mason stating, “There couldn’t be a scarier person inhabiting the White House at this very moment.”

“It’s deliberate what he’s doing. He’s deliberately stoking anger so he can run a law-and-order platform,” concurred Janice Stein, the founding director of the University of Toronto’s Munk School of Global Affairs. “It’s horrifying.”

...
Prime Minister Trudeau, however, dared not openly criticize President Trump in his response on Tuesday. Instead, like many other Canadian leaders, he chose to ruminate on racism against black Canadians and other minorities.
 
It was still an unjustified/unjustifiable police shooting resulting in the death of an unarmed man innocent and unaccused of any criminal activity.

Folks, we have got to start holding police accountable.

Actually, the cop who shot him was charged with second degree murder, and went to trial. He was acquitted. It's an unsatisfactory result, in my opinion, but the Maricopa DA did investigate and take him to trial... although they waited a couple of months before charging him, which is also unsatisfactory.

Acquitting officers is not the same thing as holding them accountable when acquittal is the nearly forgone conclusion.

LEO are not held to the same standards in terms of treatment when accused of ANY crime, much less crimes committed while on duty. I do understand that when you know someone and identify with them and put yourself in their place, knowing the pressures and repercussions they face, we tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. But it seems to flow too hard in one direction for LEOs and not so much for ordinary people of the wrong color taking a jog in the wrong neighborhood.
We should have a police force where we can provide them the benefit of the doubt. The trouble is, that trust has been violated so much, so often, that it likely can't even be quantified.

Such that, we, the public and the police need to start over. The trouble is, there is a too large percentage of the public that doesn't even see that there is a problem.
 
Looking at these categories, I'm concerned that the prosecutors may not be able to make a good case for second-degree murder -- deliberate but unplanned homicide. At the very least they ought to charge Officer Derek Chauvin with manslaughter -- negligent homicide. That is because DC's lawyer may argue that his client had no idea that he was going to kill George Floyd, that all his client wanted to do is knock out GF so that he would be less troublesome.

I'm trying to think like some sleazy lawyer.

I think that the prosecution ought to have negligent homicide as a fallback charge.

Their second degree includes unintentional murder. Chauvin's been charged with:

Second Degree Murder - Unintentional - While Committing A Felony - 609.19.2(1)

Third Degree Murder - Perpetrating Eminently Dangerous Act and Evincing Depraved Mind - 609.195(a)

Second Degree Manslaughter - Culpable Negligence Creating Unreasonable Risk - 609.205(1)
 
What cop doesn't know choking someone out for nine minutes would result in death?
Except he wasn't choking him.

There were two officers sitting on Mr Floyd's back for an undetermined amount of time, and another with his knee pressed down on Mr Floyd's neck for almost 9 minutes. Mr Floyd told the officers at least a dozen times he could not breathe, which would be consistent with having three grown men sitting on your back and neck and causing asphyxiation, where the diaphragm and rib muscles can't push enough air in and out of the lungs. And the knee pressing down on the neck likely compressed the arteries that supply oxygen to the brain, and likely blocked the airway to the lungs, at least partially. For almost 3 minutes, one officer kept pressure on Mr Floyd's neck after he appears to have passed out and stopped moving. This officer did not relent until he was asked to move by the paramedic called to the scene, and none of the officers attempted first aid/CPR even after being told by bystanders that the man had stopped moving and might have died.

Mr Floyd died because of the callous, reckless and brutal treatment he was handed by the police. It was recorded on video so that the world could see it happen, and the police could not cover it up. Even prejudiced apologists like you can't claim otherwise.
 
Mr Floyd died because of the callous, reckless and brutal treatment he was handed by the police. It was recorded on video so that the world could see it happen, and the police could not cover it up. Even prejudiced apologists like you can't claim otherwise.

Yes they can, and they obviously do, comforting as it is to think otherwise. Thus the protests.
 
How do people figure this warrants a second-degree murder trial? Under subd. 1 (1)?

609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or

(2) causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to commit a drive-by shooting in violation of section 609.66, subdivision 1e, under circumstances other than those described in section 609.185, paragraph (a), clause (3).

§Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.

By any reasonable standard, a police officer trained in law enforcement should know that the degree of force exhibited by the officers while restraining Mr Floyd could lead to his death or to serious injury. Heck, you don't have to be a trained police officer to know that pressing down on a person's neck with your knee with the weight of your body behind it for almost 9 minutes could cause that person's death. Especially if that person was unresponsive for almost 3 minutes of that time and you did not relent even after that fact had been pointed out to you by bystanders. Finally, the police made no attempt to administer CPR to save Mr Floyd's life, and they backed off only after being asked to do so by the paramedic.

The police knew what they were doing, and that their actions would likely result in death or serious injury. They did it anyway. Intent should not be hard to establish for the prosecutor.
 
The police knew what they were doing, and that their actions would likely result in death or serious injury. They did it anyway. Intent should not be hard to establish for the prosecutor.

Likely? No. Possibly? Yes. Two very different things.
 
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