Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

[Derec]

Deadline Hollywood on Twitter: "Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti, City Officials Cutting $100-$150 Million From LAPD Budget, Funds To Be Reinvested In Communities Of Color [url]https://t.co/lHbIryCClF https://t.co/UVCMyT2YZE" / Twitter[/url]

Very bad idea, that will likely result in an increase in crime.
Also, the idea that the savings should exclusively go to "communities of color" and that LA's white residents should be ignored is racist on its face!

It got this response:
nicole ham on Twitter: "Do not be distracted by this pocket change, this is 5% of the proposed 3 BILLION dollar budget to the LAPD. 3 BILLION! THEY ARE trying to CASH OUT during all this. Disgusting." / Twitter

Police haters will not be happy until they see police completely abolished.

Tom Cotton: Send In The Troops
The nation must restore order. The military is ready.

Probably not a bad idea, and comparisons with Tiananmen are spurious. It's more like LA Riots.

 

[Deepak]

NYPD police radios:

"Run them over"
"Shoot those motherfuckers; don't put that on the air"

https://www.wnyc.org/story/police-scanner-broadcasts-calls-shoot-and-run-over-protesters/

 

[Metaphor]

And as it stands, studies indicate that actual criminal acts are committed at roughly equal rates per capital.

Do you have a citation for these studies?

 

[Deepak]

Austin police shoot guy in head with baton round, and leave him for dead. Very graphic:

Show

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/-BGyTi-KdKc[/YOUTUBE]

Less graphic distant angle that shows him simply standing on a hill:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CA6TCIGnuWm/

 

[blastula]

They need to ban those, saw more than one person had their eye shot out.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I was very relieved to hear that the charges were upgraded to 2nd degree murder. I've been explaining to friends all week that that would be the most appropriate charge, given the circumstances. I looked up all the different degrees of murder in Minnesota and 2nd degree murder seems the best. Of course, the other police needed to be charged as well. Manslaughter seems to fit in those cases. I explained to a black friend of mine that it would be impossible to prove 1st digress murder, as there is really no evidence that this was premeditated. I hope that justice will finally be served when this goes to trial. So many police have gotten off after killing unarmed black men.

Are you hoping he's going to walk? Because that's how you get him off. We've seen it again and again--high profile wrongdoing, overcharge, they walk because they're not guilty of what was overcharged.

2nd degree requires intent to kill but not premeditation. I see no reason to think he intended anything more than pain. Manslaughter.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I was very relieved to hear that the charges were upgraded to 2nd degree murder. I've been explaining to friends all week that that would be the most appropriate charge, given the circumstances. I looked up all the different degrees of murder in Minnesota and 2nd degree murder seems the best. Of course, the other police needed to be charged as well. Manslaughter seems to fit in those cases. I explained to a black friend of mine that it would be impossible to prove 1st digress murder, as there is really no evidence that this was premeditated. I hope that justice will finally be served when this goes to trial. So many police have gotten off after killing unarmed black men.

Are you hoping he's going to walk? Because that's how you get him off. We've seen it again and again--high profile wrongdoing, overcharge, they walk because they're not guilty of what was overcharged.

2nd degree requires intent to kill but not premeditation. I see no reason to think he intended anything more than pain. Manslaughter.

Actually doesn’t third require malice and second requires ‘just’ a felony.

 

[Toni]

First of all, you have no problem at all holding past criminal offenses or even accusations against black people. In this thread.

I have no problem holding an individual's criminal past against them. I have a problem with holding past crimes of people unrelated to be against me just becuase we have the same skin color.

More importantly: It becomes 'past oppression' only after the oppression stops.

These days it's not oppression but preferential treatment. For example look at the extent of racial preferences in medical schools:
View attachment 28065

I'd love to be oppressed like that!

I’m sorry if you didn’t get into Medical school but I think you’re better suited as an engineer.

 

[Arctish]

I was very relieved to hear that the charges were upgraded to 2nd degree murder. I've been explaining to friends all week that that would be the most appropriate charge, given the circumstances. I looked up all the different degrees of murder in Minnesota and 2nd degree murder seems the best. Of course, the other police needed to be charged as well. Manslaughter seems to fit in those cases. I explained to a black friend of mine that it would be impossible to prove 1st digress murder, as there is really no evidence that this was premeditated. I hope that justice will finally be served when this goes to trial. So many police have gotten off after killing unarmed black men.

Are you hoping he's going to walk? Because that's how you get him off. We've seen it again and again--high profile wrongdoing, overcharge, they walk because they're not guilty of what was overcharged.

2nd degree requires intent to kill but not premeditation. I see no reason to think he intended anything more than pain. Manslaughter.

Actually doesn’t third require malice and second requires ‘just’ a felony.

Minnesota Second-Degree Murder

Second-degree murder is an intentional killing, but is less serious than first-degree murder because some malicious factors aren’t present. Both first- and second-degree murder in Minnesota have aspects of the “felony murder rule.” Felony murder is when you kill a person during the commission of another felony, such as rape or burglary.

Code Sections

Minnesota Statutes Sections 609.19 – Murder in the Second Degree and 609.195 – Murder in the Third Degree

What’s Prohibited?

Minnesota law prohibits intentional and unintentional killings under most circumstances. Those killings prohibited as second-degree murder include:

Killing a human intentionally, but without premeditation (not thinking about or preparing for before)
Killing a human while committing or attempting a drive-by shooting
Causing someone’s death without intending the death of anyone, while committing a felony other than criminal sexual conduct (rape or sexual assault which would be first-degree murder) or a drive-by shooting
Causing a death unintentionally, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict great physical harm on the victim when the murderer is currently restrained by a protection order (including for domestic violence, harassment, divorce, or any similar protection order) and the victim was the protected party in that order

The alleged felony is Third Degree Assault:

Minnesota Assault Laws

Third Degree:

Inflicting substantial bodily harm; punishable by up to 5 years and/or fines up to $10,000.
Assaulting a minor and the perpetrator has engaged in a past pattern of child abuse against the minor; punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment and/or fines up to $10,000.
Assaulting a victim who is under age 4 and causing bodily harm to the child's head, eyes, or neck, or causing multiple body bruises; punishable by up to 5 years and/or fines up to $10,000.

 

[Jarhyn]

And as it stands, studies indicate that actual criminal acts are committed at roughly equal rates per capital.

Do you have a citation for these studies?

I do. But I won't give it to you until you do two things: stare whether you currently believe blacks commit more crime than whites, and provide studies (that aren't widely debunked or based on arrest statistics, which are already suspect re: stricter enforcement against POC), and commit to not making claims, ambiguous statements, or reposting material that claims that contradict those studies without substantive and specific objections on the merits of the numbers.

If you can't, I am not going to bother, because it means you're trying to shift the burden of the null hypothesis in the first place.

I'll wait for that, quite patiently.

 

[ZiprHead]

They need to ban those, saw more than one person had their eye shot out.

Agreed.

 

[Jarhyn]

I was very relieved to hear that the charges were upgraded to 2nd degree murder. I've been explaining to friends all week that that would be the most appropriate charge, given the circumstances. I looked up all the different degrees of murder in Minnesota and 2nd degree murder seems the best. Of course, the other police needed to be charged as well. Manslaughter seems to fit in those cases. I explained to a black friend of mine that it would be impossible to prove 1st digress murder, as there is really no evidence that this was premeditated. I hope that justice will finally be served when this goes to trial. So many police have gotten off after killing unarmed black men.

Are you hoping he's going to walk? Because that's how you get him off. We've seen it again and again--high profile wrongdoing, overcharge, they walk because they're not guilty of what was overcharged.

2nd degree requires intent to kill but not premeditation. I see no reason to think he intended anything more than pain. Manslaughter.

What I find to be a grievous problem with the justice system is that you can, in a court of US "law", find all the evidence for 3rd degree murder. I mean, complete slam dunk open/shut case, and if the charge the DA brought is 2nd degree murder, they don't still end up with a 3rd degree murder conviction.

Charges, logically, should imply all lesser levels of charges as being brought.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or

They never checked Floyd's status. He stopped struggling. They never checked his status. They were told after five and a half minutes by an off duty firefighter to check his pulse. They did not.

And how is your point established? Failing to check doesn't prove intent. He applied some pain, when the guy complained he applied more pain and he apparently got the message and shut up. Wrong, but this doesn't show an intent to kill.

 

[Metaphor]

I do. But I won't give it to you until you do two things: stare whether you currently believe blacks commit more crime than whites,

In America, blacks commit more crimes per capita than whites. This will not be true for every level and every class of crime, but is true overall.

and provide studies (that aren't widely debunked or based on arrest statistics, which are already suspect re: stricter enforcement against POC),

Would you accept results from the National Crime Victimization Survey as a source?

and commit to not making claims, ambiguous statements, or reposting material that claims that contradict those studies without substantive and specific objections on the merits of the numbers.

I can't understand your sentence. What are the "those studies" you are referring to? The studies you provide? I do not understand what you are trying to say with the words :

that claims that contradict those studies without substantive and specific objections on the merits of the numbers.

If you can't, I am not going to bother, because it means you're trying to shift the burden of the null hypothesis in the first place.

You made the positive claim - that per capita, blacks and whites commit the same amount of crime. You made this assertion without evidence.

 

[lpetrich]

Study Says "Extreme" Protest Isn't Popular (But It Can Still Be Effective) - YouTube with this transcript page: Study Says "Extreme" Protest Isn't Popular (But It Can Still Be Effective) | Rebecca Watson on Patreon
noting
The activist’s dilemma: Extreme protest actions reduce popular support for social movements. - PsycNET
RW again:

Subjects were given stories to read of activists behaving in several different ways: “moderate” protests included Black Lives Matter protesters chanting “Black Lives Matter”. The “extreme” version had the protesters chanting “Pigs in a blanket, fry ‘em like bacon,” which the researchers categorize as a “chant that could be viewed as a call for violence against police officers.” That’s it. No destruction, no violence, no raping or looting or killing, just a mean chant. And it’s worth noting that in that study, the researchers did not find that subjects were less willing to support the Black Lives Matter cause after reading the “extreme” version.

After some discussion of what qualifies as "extreme", she continued with

Some protest actions that people identify as very immoral may make a person less likely to join a movement, and in rare circumstances may reduce a person’s support for the cause.

That’s not as eye-catching but it is more in-line with both what this research says and what past studies have shown about real social upheavals. It’s hard to compare one cause to another but scientists can look back at particular trends, and one trend they see again and again is that the general public fucking hates activism -- or at least they tell surveyors like these scientists that they hate it and that it makes them less supportive of the causes, even if they end up coming over to the activists’ side anyway. We have loads and loads of data on this from the civil rights movement -- back in 1961, 57% of Americans said that sit-ins hurt the cause of those fighting against segregation. By 1963 that number had risen to 60%. By 1964, after Martin Luther King’s “I Have a Dream” speech, it was 74%. Three quarters of Americans thought Martin Luther King’s “extreme” tactics were hurting the Civil Rights fight. He was one of the most hated men in America. And yet, the Civil Rights movement succeeded.

Even outright riots may have beneficial effects, though I DON'T want to endorse them -- they are destructive and they make a big mess. She notes Can Violent Protest Change Local Policy Support? Evidence from the Aftermath of the 1992 Los Angeles Riot
From its abstract:

Contrary to some expectations from the academic literature and the popular press, we find that the riot caused a marked liberal shift in policy support at the polls. Investigating the sources of this shift, we find that it was likely the result of increased mobilization of both African American and white voters. Remarkably, this mobilization endures over a decade later.

RW:

But it is possible to look at our very recent history and note that large social change is about more than what the majority of the general population finds palatable. And it is possible to look at whether or not previous “moderate” protests were effective. Did NFL players kneeling convince white America that police officers should stop killing black men, and/or be held accountable when they do? Were they praised for their peaceful actions, or did 54% of Americans say it was “inappropriate?”

And maybe we can all understand the problem that arises when your peaceful, moderate activism is deemed inappropriate and is ineffective -- where do you go from there? Kneeling is inappropriate. Disrupting society is “extreme.” What’s next? What else do you have to lose? What research will convince you that your rage is hopeless and therefore not even worth expressing?

 

[Jarhyn]

609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or

They never checked Floyd's status. He stopped struggling. They never checked his status. They were told after five and a half minutes by an off duty firefighter to check his pulse. They did not.

And how is your point established? Failing to check doesn't prove intent. He applied some pain, when the guy complained he applied more pain and he apparently got the message and shut up. Wrong, but this doesn't show an intent to kill.

Failure to yeild during a possibility of fatal action implies intent to continue.

 

[Arctish]

609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or

They never checked Floyd's status. He stopped struggling. They never checked his status. They were told after five and a half minutes by an off duty firefighter to check his pulse. They did not.

And how is your point established? Failing to check doesn't prove intent. He applied some pain, when the guy complained he applied more pain and he apparently got the message and shut up. Wrong, but this doesn't show an intent to kill.

He applied some pain, when the guy complained he applied more pain until the guy died.

IOW he Inflicted substantial bodily harm and caused someone’s death without intending the death of anyone, while committing a felony other than criminal sexual conduct.

Therefore, Third Degree Assault and Second Degree Murder.

 

[Jarhyn]

As I said, I'll provide my studies when you provide two things a commitment to changing your view on the basis of evidence, and evidence to support your own view not based off of of already-suspect arrest statistics.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Looking at these categories, I'm concerned that the prosecutors may not be able to make a good case for second-degree murder -- deliberate but unplanned homicide. At the very least they ought to charge Officer Derek Chauvin with manslaughter -- negligent homicide. That is because DC's lawyer may argue that his client had no idea that he was going to kill George Floyd, that all his client wanted to do is knock out GF so that he would be less troublesome.

I'm trying to think like some sleazy lawyer.

I think that the prosecution ought to have negligent homicide as a fallback charge.

This is always an included lesser charge for a murder offense

Except some people have walked in high profile cases from a lack of such a fallback.

 

[Jarhyn]

Pretty sure that's third degree murder you are describing: killing unintentionally while assaulting someone with the intent to inflict harm (among other things). Maybe you had your charges reversed; it's 3rd degree murder, and second degree assault you describe.