Defunding the Police?

[Trausti]

What a shock you didn't actually read anything I posted in that thread:

For years, activists have argued that MPD has failed to actually keep the city safe, and City Councilmembers echoed that sentiment today during their announcement. MPD’s record for solving serious crimes in the city is consistently low. For example, in 2019, Minneapolis police only cleared 56 percent of cases in which a person was killed. For rapes, the police department’s solve rate is abysmally low. In 2018, their clearance rate for rape was just 22 percent. In other words, four out of every five rapes go unsolved in Minneapolis. Further casting doubt on the department’s commitment to solving sexual assaults, MPD announced last year the discovery of 1,700 untested rape kits spanning 30 years, which officials said had been misplaced.

Baltimore? And if people refuse to cooperate with police, why fault the police? E.g, the homicide clearance rate in Chicago is abysmally low. Snitches get stitches, ya know.

 

[Trausti]

Ill-advised. If police feel that they are being poorly supported by the community, they will react with more violence, not less. These are terrorists we're talking about, not kindergarten teachers. They aren't just going to sigh and buy crayons out of their personal budgets when the well runs dry.

It’s awful but I know you’re probably not wide if the mark there.

No, the police will pull back and not engage. That's the Ferguson effect.

 

[ruby sparks]

In fairness, I have to say that I still don’t think it’s anything more than a minority of police, that are problematic I mean.

I don’t believe the average policeman (or woman) is anything like a terrorist. In the USA.

 

[ruby sparks]

As ruby said, it's not like Minneapolis is saying it will totally get rid police. It's saying it will dismantle the current police department in favor of something that, I'm assuming, isn't quite as militarized and is more based on SERVING and PROTECTING rather than policing.

"In practice, this will probably involve diverting police funding to treatment services such as mental health counselors and drug addiction experts. While a smaller police force may remain, it won’t be the default body interacting with the community at the time of crisis." -The Guardian

that doesn't sound bad to me but I'm not particularly the type to get scared by hyperbolic rhetoric from the likes of FFvC. Also, I'm a white, heterosexual male who works in the defense industry. I probably wouldn't be affected either way and I recognize that.

I think it’s fair to say that we can distinguish between reform, even significant reform, and defunding. Don’t you think?

Even defunding itself can mean different things.

 

[Trausti]

In fairness, I have to say that I still don’t think it’s anything more than a minority of police, that are problematic I mean.

I don’t believe the average policeman (or woman) is anything like a terrorist. In the USA.

Yes. Every organization has bad apples. Most people like their local police force. But then the media gotta hype up stuff to get the clicks.

 

[laughing dog]

Defunding the police means diverting resources and some responsibilities away from the traditional police. For example, the police as a group are ill-equipped to deal with people with serious mental health issues. So diverting resources and the responsibilities of dealing with mental health issues away from the traditional police and to mental health professionals may have a positive effect. It would also permit the traditional police to focus on the areas in which they have a comparative advantage.

The Minneapolis Police Department has been staining its reputation for decades, in large part by the actions of the 3rd precinct (see https://www.startribune.com/third-precinct-served-as-playground-for-renegade-cops/571076562/ for more detail).

By the way,

Two law enforcement agencies acknowledged Monday that officers patrolling Minneapolis during the recent protests knifed the tires of numerous vehicles parked and unoccupied in at least two locations.

Video and photo images posted on the news outlet Mother Jones show officers in military-style uniforms puncturing tires in the Kmart parking lot at Lake Street and Nicollet Avenue on May 30.

Photos and video at S. Washington Avenue at Interstate 35W, also showed officers with knives puncturing the tires of two unoccupied cars with repeated jabs on May 31. Department of Public Safety spokesman Bruce Gordon acknowledged that the tires were cut.

(source:https://www.startribune.com/officers-slashed-tires-on-vehicles-parked-amid-minneapolis-protests-unrest/571105692/) is just the sort of police behavior that creates more advocates of defunding.

 

[ruby sparks]

In fairness, I have to say that I still don’t think it’s anything more than a minority of police, that are problematic I mean.

I don’t believe the average policeman (or woman) is anything like a terrorist. In the USA.

Yes. Every organization has bad apples. Most people like their local police force. But then the media gotta hype up stuff to get the clicks.

I accept there is a hype element to it yes.

 

[cycomiko]

As ruby said, it's not like Minneapolis is saying it will totally get rid police. It's saying it will dismantle the current police department in favor of something that, I'm assuming, isn't quite as militarized and is more based on SERVING and PROTECTING rather than policing.

"In practice, this will probably involve diverting police funding to treatment services such as mental health counselors and drug addiction experts. While a smaller police force may remain, it won’t be the default body interacting with the community at the time of crisis." -The Guardian

that doesn't sound bad to me but I'm not particularly the type to get scared by hyperbolic rhetoric from the likes of FFvC. Also, I'm a white, heterosexual male who works in the defense industry. I probably wouldn't be affected either way and I recognize that.

I think it’s fair to say that we can distinguish between reform, even significant reform, and defunding. Don’t you think?

Even defunding itself can mean different things.

totally agree but this country isn't really good at nuance. i think the only two messages we'll see are "the police WILL murder you if you're black/brown" or "the libtards want to abolish polish so you all in big trouble now".

ReFund the police! fund the training and psych evals. train them to actually walk the neighborhood and get to know people. etc etc etc.

 

[ruby sparks]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QRen8nI8_aM

 

[ruby sparks]

As ruby said, it's not like Minneapolis is saying it will totally get rid police. It's saying it will dismantle the current police department in favor of something that, I'm assuming, isn't quite as militarized and is more based on SERVING and PROTECTING rather than policing.

"In practice, this will probably involve diverting police funding to treatment services such as mental health counselors and drug addiction experts. While a smaller police force may remain, it won’t be the default body interacting with the community at the time of crisis." -The Guardian

that doesn't sound bad to me but I'm not particularly the type to get scared by hyperbolic rhetoric from the likes of FFvC. Also, I'm a white, heterosexual male who works in the defense industry. I probably wouldn't be affected either way and I recognize that.

I think it’s fair to say that we can distinguish between reform, even significant reform, and defunding. Don’t you think?

Even defunding itself can mean different things.

totally agree but this country isn't really good at nuance. i think the only two messages we'll see are "the police WILL murder you if you're black/brown" or "the libtards want to abolish polish so you all in big trouble now".

ReFund the police! fund the training and psych evals. train them to actually walk the neighborhood and get to know people. etc etc etc.

But isn’t there also a more nuanced approach, just more of it or less of it depending on location?

 

[Jarhyn]

In fairness, I have to say that I still don’t think it’s anything more than a minority of police, that are problematic I mean.

I don’t believe the average policeman (or woman) is anything like a terrorist. In the USA.

Yes. Every organization has bad apples. Most people like their local police force. But then the media gotta hype up stuff to get the clicks.

I accept there is a hype element to it yes.

The question is what that organization does about bad apples. Every sane organization I know removes "bad apples" with great speed. Teachers, doctors, nurses, software engineers, fast food, army units, doesn't matter. When a bad apples is detected, all reasonable effort is expended in removing them from the team.

But when it comes to cops, they double down, protect, give paid leave, and sweep it under the rug.

The problem is that all cops are bad.

 

[ruby sparks]

I accept there is a hype element to it yes.

The question is what that organization does about bad apples. Every sane organization I know removes "bad apples" with great speed. Teachers, doctors, nurses, software engineers, fast food, army units, doesn't matter. When a bad apples is detected, all reasonable effort is expended in removing them from the team.

But when it comes to cops, they double down, protect, give paid leave, and sweep it under the rug.

The problem is that all cops are bad.

Yes, and a bad cop can just relocate to a different force. That’s a loophole that needs closed for sure.

I totally disagree that all cops are bad. That’s a ridiculous thing to say.

 

[Politesse]

In fairness, I have to say that I still don’t think it’s anything more than a minority of police, that are problematic I mean.

I don’t believe the average policeman (or woman) is anything like a terrorist. In the USA.

When I say "terrorist", I do not mean, "a morally awful person who I don't like." I mean, "a person who uses violence or threat of violence against civilians to achieve their political goals." This describes most, though not all, police departments I have ever encountered in the U.S. I'm sure there are plenty of decent people employed as police persons, but if they don't decry terroristic actions and threats, they are irrelevant to the discussion of what to do about the people who make those threats. If the police feel that the people are turning on them, they will turn on the people, and in a much more deadly fashion. Genuinely nice cops may not approve of this trend, but they are unlikely to meaningfully stand against it, especially if they themselves feel isolated and imperiled by their more authoritarian colleagues and supervisors. I do agree that the policing system needs reform, but those reforms are not going to be effective if they start with defunding and don't follow up with a coherent path forward.

 

[Trausti]

How satisfied are you with your local police department (Very or somewhat satisfied/ Somewhat or very dissatisfied):

College educated whites: 73% / 9%
Non-college whites: 70% / 14%
Black: 72% / 17%
Hispanic/Asian: 68% / 18%

Monmouth poll

The media is garbage.

 

[cycomiko]

totally agree but this country isn't really good at nuance. i think the only two messages we'll see are "the police WILL murder you if you're black/brown" or "the libtards want to abolish polish so you all in big trouble now".

ReFund the police! fund the training and psych evals. train them to actually walk the neighborhood and get to know people. etc etc etc.

But isn’t there also a more nuanced approach, just more of it or less of it depending on location?

absolutely, there is a more nuanced approach and i believe that's the correct approach in every case. however, here in the US, we seem to have lost the ability to maneuver such complex topics in an intellectual manner so we revert to our extremes and refuse to admit we might be wrong or that the other side might have a point.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

How satisfied are you with your local police department (Very or somewhat satisfied/ Somewhat or very dissatisfied):

College educated whites: 73% / 9%
Non-college whites: 70% / 14%
Black: 72% / 17%
Hispanic/Asian: 68% / 18%

Monmouth poll

The media is garbage.

So you trust that poll more than "the media"? Good to know in light of:

Most Americans say the anger about black deaths at the hands of police officers that led to recent protests is fully justified, even if they do not feel the same about the actual actions. A majority of the public now agrees that the police are more likely to use excessive force with a black person than a white person in similar situations. Only one-third of the country held this opinion four years ago. The Monmouth (“Mon-muth”) University Poll also finds that the number of people who consider racial and ethnic discrimination to be a big problem has increased from about half in 2015 to nearly 3 in 4 now. In other results, President Donald Trump’s job rating has ticked down again as opinion that the country is headed down the wrong track surpasses 70% for the first time in Monmouth’s polling.
...
“It seems we have reached a turning point in public opinion where white Americans are realizing that black Americans face risks when dealing with police that they do not. They may not agree with the violence of recent protests, but many whites say they understand where that anger is coming from,” said Patrick Murray, director of the independent Monmouth University Polling Institute.
...
Currently, 21% of the public says the country is headed in the right direction while 74% says it is on the wrong track. This result is more negative than it has been in Monmouth polling going back to 2013.
...
The biggest drop in the past month has come among Republicans, from 64% right direction and 28% wrong track in May to 45% right direction and 46% wrong track now. It has also declined among independents (29% to 63% in May and 17% to 78% now) and Democrats (13% to 83% in May and 4% to 92% now).

 

[Trausti]

How satisfied are you with your local police department (Very or somewhat satisfied/ Somewhat or very dissatisfied):

College educated whites: 73% / 9%
Non-college whites: 70% / 14%
Black: 72% / 17%
Hispanic/Asian: 68% / 18%

Monmouth poll

The media is garbage.

So you trust that poll more than "the media"? Good to know in light of:

Most Americans say the anger about black deaths at the hands of police officers that led to recent protests is fully justified, even if they do not feel the same about the actual actions. A majority of the public now agrees that the police are more likely to use excessive force with a black person than a white person in similar situations. Only one-third of the country held this opinion four years ago. The Monmouth (“Mon-muth”) University Poll also finds that the number of people who consider racial and ethnic discrimination to be a big problem has increased from about half in 2015 to nearly 3 in 4 now. In other results, President Donald Trump’s job rating has ticked down again as opinion that the country is headed down the wrong track surpasses 70% for the first time in Monmouth’s polling.
...
“It seems we have reached a turning point in public opinion where white Americans are realizing that black Americans face risks when dealing with police that they do not. They may not agree with the violence of recent protests, but many whites say they understand where that anger is coming from,” said Patrick Murray, director of the independent Monmouth University Polling Institute.
...
Currently, 21% of the public says the country is headed in the right direction while 74% says it is on the wrong track. This result is more negative than it has been in Monmouth polling going back to 2013.
...
The biggest drop in the past month has come among Republicans, from 64% right direction and 28% wrong track in May to 45% right direction and 46% wrong track now. It has also declined among independents (29% to 63% in May and 17% to 78% now) and Democrats (13% to 83% in May and 4% to 92% now).

Right, if they don't feel that way locally, why do they feel that way nationally? What institution could be plying that propaganda?

 

[Trausti]

 

[Politesse]

How satisfied are you with your local police department (Very or somewhat satisfied/ Somewhat or very dissatisfied):

College educated whites: 73% / 9%
Non-college whites: 70% / 14%
Black: 72% / 17%
Hispanic/Asian: 68% / 18%

Monmouth poll

The media is garbage.

Interesting thing to mine from that report. Did you even read the rest of it? Those are some damning freaking statistics.

 

[Trausti]

How satisfied are you with your local police department (Very or somewhat satisfied/ Somewhat or very dissatisfied):

College educated whites: 73% / 9%
Non-college whites: 70% / 14%
Black: 72% / 17%
Hispanic/Asian: 68% / 18%

Monmouth poll

The media is garbage.

Interesting thing to mine from that report. Did you even read the rest of it? Those are some damning freaking statistics.

And why is there such a disconnect between what people experience locally but think nationally?