Trans activists: Trans women should not be required to suppress testosterone to play on women's teams

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Your version includes:
If you don't put trans people in the womens league it means you hate trans people and want to oppress them.
If you do put trans people in the mens league it means you hate trans people and want to oppress them.

Don't forget that. It is very important. Even if people have other motives, that IS your argument. No matter what their actual motives, you have given them their "true" motives. Much truthiness.

I don’t know where you’re getting that from and I think you are misrepresenting what krypton is saying.

I'm getting it from Krypton's response to my suggestion that trans athletes compete upwards instead of downwards and enter the mens divisions.

That would be a more believable story if it were actually in my response, explicitly or implicitly. Funny how that works.

 

[Metaphor]

Apparently your understanding of what it is to be a man or a woman is incomplete.

Of course, I would say the opposite of your position: your definition of man and woman includes unnecessary psychological components, but worse. It includes sex-role stereotyping of the most idiotic kind.

No, it includes recognition of brain science that shows that brain structure of transwomen is the same structure as for women and that the brain structure of transmen is similar to the brain structure of women. Gender is not dictated by genitalia or by chromosomal array.

Whoever imagined it was? Gender is a thought in your head.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I'm getting it from Krypton's response to my suggestion that trans athletes compete upwards instead of downwards and enter the mens divisions.

That would be a more believable story if it were actually in my response, explicitly or implicitly. Funny how that works.

You are the one who said "compete upward" was unfair, and you are the one who stated (not implied) that the reason I said "compete upward" was due to hatred of trans individuals.

 

[Jarhyn]

No, it includes recognition of brain science that shows that brain structure of transwomen is the same structure as for women and that the brain structure of transmen is similar to the brain structure of women. Gender is not dictated by genitalia or by chromosomal array.

Whoever imagined it was? Gender is a thought in your head.

Some thoughts sin your head come from the way your brain is shaped, and what chemicals the signal producers in that part of the brain expect for producing their signals. YOU exist as a thought in your head.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

You are the one who said "compete upward" was unfair,

Almost. What I said essentially is that it's a double standard to singularly expect transgender women to 'compete upwards' for the sake of protecting cisgender women from having to do the same thing. It's especially bizarre when some transgender women and some transgender men do not have a biological advantage over cisgender women, yet you'd expect them to compete at a disadvantage anyway.

Your 'obvious solution' only presents a solution which is useful to cisgender people, and needlessly disadvantages a portion of transgender people. As a result, I've inferred that your considerations with regard to providing solutions only extend as far as solutions for cisgender women, and possibly which don't negatively impact cisgender men.

Transgender people, on the other hand, get sorted into a bizarre clusterfuck category where the whole 'competing upwards' or 'competing down' consideration just gets thrown out the window. If not that, many of them just compete at the same disadvantage you don't find acceptable for cisgender women. It doesn't matter if that is your desired outcome. When you accept that outcome as a solution or as fair, then what conclusion can be drawn other than your standard of fairness is one which does not concern itself with transgender competitors being disadvantaged.

It's either than or you just really don't understand the relevant biology at play here, or perhaps just have no clue what transgender people are.

and you are the one who stated (not implied) that the reason I said "compete upward" was due to hatred of trans individuals.

Quote me directly. Where did I say that? If I stated it (not implied) then the quote must exist.

 

[Toni]

No, it includes recognition of brain science that shows that brain structure of transwomen is the same structure as for women and that the brain structure of transmen is similar to the brain structure of women. Gender is not dictated by genitalia or by chromosomal array.

Whoever imagined it was? Gender is a thought in your head.

You are without gender?

 

[Metaphor]

No, it includes recognition of brain science that shows that brain structure of transwomen is the same structure as for women and that the brain structure of transmen is similar to the brain structure of women. Gender is not dictated by genitalia or by chromosomal array.

Whoever imagined it was? Gender is a thought in your head.

You are without gender?

Good lord. How do you go from 'gender is a thought in your head' to 'you are without gender?' How do you do that, Toni? Do these 'connections' make sense in your head, or are you a master level troll?

Gender is a thought in people's heads. The thought in my head is "I am a man", which thankfully accords with reality. I also have the thought "my genetic ancestry is Slavic", which also accords with reality (I was hoping there was some Jewish DNA but there isn't).

I have almost no interest in a person's gender in the same way I almost never ask somebody what their favourite colour is. Your favourite colour, if we follow the logic of trans activists, could be:

• red
• blue
• any other colour on the RGB spectrum
• a colour that humans can't see but insects or other lifeforms might
• "I am colour blind - I don't know what colour is"
• "My favourite colour is blue today but it will be yellow this afternoon"

 

[Toni]

You are without gender?

Good lord. How do you go from 'gender is a thought in your head' to 'you are without gender?' How do you do that, Toni? Do these 'connections' make sense in your head, or are you a master level troll?

Gender is a thought in people's heads. The thought in my head is "I am a man", which thankfully accords with reality. I also have the thought "my genetic ancestry is Slavic", which also accords with reality (I was hoping there was some Jewish DNA but there isn't).

I have almost no interest in a person's gender in the same way I almost never ask somebody what their favourite colour is. Your favourite colour, if we follow the logic of trans activists, could be:

• red
• blue
• any other colour on the RGB spectrum
• a colour that humans can't see but insects or other lifeforms might
• "I am colour blind - I don't know what colour is"
• "My favourite colour is blue today but it will be yellow this afternoon"

And you wonder why I asked.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are without gender?

Good lord. How do you go from 'gender is a thought in your head' to 'you are without gender?' How do you do that, Toni? Do these 'connections' make sense in your head, or are you a master level troll?

Gender is a thought in people's heads. The thought in my head is "I am a man", which thankfully accords with reality. I also have the thought "my genetic ancestry is Slavic", which also accords with reality (I was hoping there was some Jewish DNA but there isn't).

I have almost no interest in a person's gender in the same way I almost never ask somebody what their favourite colour is. Your favourite colour, if we follow the logic of trans activists, could be:

• red
• blue
• any other colour on the RGB spectrum
• a colour that humans can't see but insects or other lifeforms might
• "I am colour blind - I don't know what colour is"
• "My favourite colour is blue today but it will be yellow this afternoon"

And you wonder why I asked.

Well, I got it.

 

[Metaphor]

No, it includes recognition of brain science that shows that brain structure of transwomen is the same structure as for women and that the brain structure of transmen is similar to the brain structure of women. Gender is not dictated by genitalia or by chromosomal array.

Whoever imagined it was? Gender is a thought in your head.

Some thoughts sin your head come from the way your brain is shaped, and what chemicals the signal producers in that part of the brain expect for producing their signals. YOU exist as a thought in your head.

Well, all thoughts in your head come from your brain. Conservatives once thought that men and women had entirely different brains. It seems trans activists think the same thing.

 

[Toni]

Some thoughts sin your head come from the way your brain is shaped, and what chemicals the signal producers in that part of the brain expect for producing their signals. YOU exist as a thought in your head.

Well, all thoughts in your head come from your brain. Conservatives once thought that men and women had entirely different brains. It seems trans activists think the same thing.

It appears that some people do not wish to acknowledge brain science. I thought you see yourself as a very rational, data driven person. I guess I was wrong. The fact that some structures in male brains differ from those structures in female brains is not controversial.

https://www.webmd.com/brain/features/how-male-female-brains-differ#1

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/men-women-different-brains1.htm

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/males-and-females-differ-in-specific-brain-structures

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

 

[Metaphor]

Some thoughts sin your head come from the way your brain is shaped, and what chemicals the signal producers in that part of the brain expect for producing their signals. YOU exist as a thought in your head.

Well, all thoughts in your head come from your brain. Conservatives once thought that men and women had entirely different brains. It seems trans activists think the same thing.

It appears that some people do not wish to acknowledge brain science. I thought you see yourself as a very rational, data driven person. I guess I was wrong. The fact that some structures in male brains differ from those structures in female brains is not controversial.

https://www.webmd.com/brain/features/how-male-female-brains-differ#1

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/men-women-different-brains1.htm

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/males-and-females-differ-in-specific-brain-structures

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

So, you now apparently believe that men and women have different brains? So, you accept that the 'gender gap' in earned income is due to the inherent differences in the brains of men and women? Or, are wages among the list of things completely unaffected by men's brains and women's brains?

 

[ZiprHead]

It appears that some people do not wish to acknowledge brain science. I thought you see yourself as a very rational, data driven person. I guess I was wrong. The fact that some structures in male brains differ from those structures in female brains is not controversial.

https://www.webmd.com/brain/features/how-male-female-brains-differ#1

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/men-women-different-brains1.htm

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/males-and-females-differ-in-specific-brain-structures

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

So, you now apparently believe that men and women have different brains? So, you accept that the 'gender gap' in earned income is due to the inherent differences in the brains of men and women? Or, are wages among the list of things completely unaffected by men's brains and women's brains?

Strawmanning much? The research is there for you to see.

 

[Emily Lake]

Apparently your understanding of what it is to be a man or a woman is incomplete.

Of course, I would say the opposite of your position: your definition of man and woman includes unnecessary psychological components, but worse. It includes sex-role stereotyping of the most idiotic kind.

No, it includes recognition of brain science that shows that brain structure of transwomen is the same structure as for women and that the brain structure of transmen is similar to the brain structure of women. Gender is not dictated by genitalia or by chromosomal array.

I suspect you've mis-typed something with the bit in blue, but I believe I follow. I don't think the brain science is quite as clear as you seem to believe. Yes, when doing fMRIs, there are some few parts of the brain that, in transwomen are more similar to that part of the brain in cis-women than to that part of the brain in cis-men. And the converse is true with respect to transmen.

There are problems, however, with this science... or more specifically with the selective nature of the reporting and the selective nature of how it's interpreted.

First off, the parts of the brains that show differences are very, very few relative to the entirety of the brain. At the end of the day, there is no material difference in the brains between males and females that are not directly correlated with the size of the skull.

Secondly, the differences that do exist after accounting for size-of-head don't actually show large differences between males and females. They're different... but only just. In fact, they aren't even big enough differences for a scientist to look at a brain scan and identify whether the brain belongs to a male or a female (even if we don't throw them any transgender people to screw them up). The differences simply aren't large enough to be distinctive. It's like looking at dozens and dozens of red roses, and saying that one rose is closer in red to a batch of roses over there, than it is in color the red roses over here. Sure... when you're lining up all the roses you can do that. But if someone gives a red rose without that direct comparison available to you... it's just a reed rose. You're not going to be able to say whether it's red rose type A or red rose type B.

Third, and to me most important, is that all the research to date has been done on people who have been exposed to sex-differentiated social structures, and who have the experiences associated with a culture that discriminates on the basis of gender. And brains are highly plastic. To date, none of the research done can determine whether any of those small observed differences are due to nature or to nurture.

 

[ruby sparks]

I’m a bit confused as to why the above matters.

If their gender is female then that’s what it is.

And given that it’s unlikely to be because of fairy dust, then there’ll be a physical explanation.

So then maybe we get asked, is/was it due to nature or nurture, or both? And again I’m wondering, what does it matter, for the purposes of acknowledging what their gender is.

Am I just imagining it, or is it the case that in between the lines of some of the things being said here, is there an implied suggestion that gender isn’t really real?

 

[Emily Lake]

I'll also add that prior to puberty, there are virtually no differences in the brains of boys and girls. I'm sure that some exist - we are, after all, exposed to difference hormonal cocktails in utero. I know, for example, that the pituitary is different, and I speculate that brain areas closely associated with the pituitary will exhibit some differences.

I still hold, however, that the differences are minor and immaterial... and they're not large enough differences for any scientist to look at a brain and say "that's a male brain" or "that's a female brain". Especially since so much of the brain differences are either a reflection of skull size (females tend to have smaller heads, and as a result their neurons are more densely packed) or are unable to be separated from environmental "nurture" differences (relative volume of gray matter versus white matter).

 

[Emily Lake]

I’m a bit confused as to why the above matters.

If their gender is female then that’s what it is.

And given that it’s unlikely to be because of fairy dust, then there’ll be a physical explanation.

So then maybe we get asked, is/was it due to nature or nurture, or both? And again I’m wondering, what does it matter, for the purposes of acknowledging what their gender is.

Am I just imagining it, or is it the case that in between the lines of some of the things being said here, is there an implied suggestion that gender isn’t really real?

For the most part, I don't think it matters.

There are a few subjects where segregation on the basis of sex are reasonable and appropriate in my opinion. And for the most part, I'm perfectly willing to allow transgender people to be exceptions to that segregation on a case-by-case basis.

To some people, however, it ends up being a key element of their argument. The observed (but minimal and dot definitive) differences in brains gets used as justification for transpeople to have a carte blanche to circumvent reasonable sex-segregated situations. They claim that because male and female brains are different, and because some portion of transgender brains appear to be closer to that of the sex they identify with, then they have a female brain and are therefore indistinguishable from a female and should have all direct access to everything female with no questions asked. Like sports and rape shelters and prisons and high-school locker rooms.

It's a similar red herring to the intersex arguments. That one bothers me more though, because it's wrong on multiple dimensions. We've had several years of being told that sex and gender are distinct and disparate elements of a person, and that the significant overlap between them in common usage and perception is really just a coincidence because so many people have genders that significantly overlap their sex. When challenged with the argument that humans are sexually dimorphic, the topic of intersex ends up in the mix. Even though intersex conditions are very rare, and the majority of intersex conditions are technical genetic variations that don't have any impact on gender at all. The vast majority of transgender people are not intersex. And the vast majority of transgender people are not intersex.

It's a bit of a logical jumble. Gender and sex are distinct and separate things, except when there's sex-based science research that can be used to support the objectives of the trans community by conflating the two. To be fair though, the smattering of anti-trans folks out there do the same thing in reverse = they contend that sex and gender are the same thing... except in those cases where they're not and the separation of them supports their argument.

Reality is that there really is a difference between males and females. Physically, behaviorally, and genetically.
Reality is that there might or might not be a difference in gender that is something other than conditioning and brain plasticity around gender roles... but there really isn't anything that conclusively demonstrates this to be the case.

 

[ruby sparks]

I’m a bit confused as to why the above matters.

If their gender is female then that’s what it is.

And given that it’s unlikely to be because of fairy dust, then there’ll be a physical explanation.

So then maybe we get asked, is/was it due to nature or nurture, or both? And again I’m wondering, what does it matter, for the purposes of acknowledging what their gender is.

Am I just imagining it, or is it the case that in between the lines of some of the things being said here, is there an implied suggestion that gender isn’t really real?

For the most part, I don't think it matters.

There are a few subjects where segregation on the basis of sex are reasonable and appropriate in my opinion. And for the most part, I'm perfectly willing to allow transgender people to be exceptions to that segregation on a case-by-case basis.

To some people, however, it ends up being a key element of their argument. The observed (but minimal and dot definitive) differences in brains gets used as justification for transpeople to have a carte blanche to circumvent reasonable sex-segregated situations. They claim that because male and female brains are different, and because some portion of transgender brains appear to be closer to that of the sex they identify with, then they have a female brain and are therefore indistinguishable from a female and should have all direct access to everything female with no questions asked. Like sports and rape shelters and prisons and high-school locker rooms.

It's a similar red herring to the intersex arguments. That one bothers me more though, because it's wrong on multiple dimensions. We've had several years of being told that sex and gender are distinct and disparate elements of a person, and that the significant overlap between them in common usage and perception is really just a coincidence because so many people have genders that significantly overlap their sex. When challenged with the argument that humans are sexually dimorphic, the topic of intersex ends up in the mix. Even though intersex conditions are very rare, and the majority of intersex conditions are technical genetic variations that don't have any impact on gender at all. The vast majority of transgender people are not intersex. And the vast majority of transgender people are not intersex.

It's a bit of a logical jumble. Gender and sex are distinct and separate things, except when there's sex-based science research that can be used to support the objectives of the trans community by conflating the two. To be fair though, the smattering of anti-trans folks out there do the same thing in reverse = they contend that sex and gender are the same thing... except in those cases where they're not and the separation of them supports their argument.

Reality is that there really is a difference between males and females. Physically, behaviorally, and genetically.
Reality is that there might or might not be a difference in gender that is something other than conditioning and brain plasticity around gender roles... but there really isn't anything that conclusively demonstrates this to be the case.

I agree with you about the claims that having a supposed ‘female brain’ should not mean you can use female showers, refuges etc.

But your last two paragraphs confuse me in the way I previously indicated.

So you have behaviour in the first paragraph (of the last two), and you call that ‘really a difference’, even though conditioning could be a factor. And then in the second paragraph (which seems by contrast to be about ‘not really differences’) you have conditioning, and brain plasticity, as if...the latter is less real than behaviour....or.... sorry I don’t understand.

 

[Toni]

No, it includes recognition of brain science that shows that brain structure of transwomen is the same structure as for women and that the brain structure of transmen is similar to the brain structure of women. Gender is not dictated by genitalia or by chromosomal array.

I suspect you've mis-typed something with the bit in blue, but I believe I follow. I don't think the brain science is quite as clear as you seem to believe. Yes, when doing fMRIs, there are some few parts of the brain that, in transwomen are more similar to that part of the brain in cis-women than to that part of the brain in cis-men. And the converse is true with respect to transmen.

There are problems, however, with this science... or more specifically with the selective nature of the reporting and the selective nature of how it's interpreted.

First off, the parts of the brains that show differences are very, very few relative to the entirety of the brain. At the end of the day, there is no material difference in the brains between males and females that are not directly correlated with the size of the skull.

Secondly, the differences that do exist after accounting for size-of-head don't actually show large differences between males and females. They're different... but only just. In fact, they aren't even big enough differences for a scientist to look at a brain scan and identify whether the brain belongs to a male or a female (even if we don't throw them any transgender people to screw them up). The differences simply aren't large enough to be distinctive. It's like looking at dozens and dozens of red roses, and saying that one rose is closer in red to a batch of roses over there, than it is in color the red roses over here. Sure... when you're lining up all the roses you can do that. But if someone gives a red rose without that direct comparison available to you... it's just a reed rose. You're not going to be able to say whether it's red rose type A or red rose type B.

Third, and to me most important, is that all the research to date has been done on people who have been exposed to sex-differentiated social structures, and who have the experiences associated with a culture that discriminates on the basis of gender. And brains are highly plastic. To date, none of the research done can determine whether any of those small observed differences are due to nature or to nurture.

I did mis-type. The brain structure of transmen is similar to MEN is what I meant to type. Thanks for catching the typo.

 

[Metaphor]

It appears that some people do not wish to acknowledge brain science. I thought you see yourself as a very rational, data driven person. I guess I was wrong. The fact that some structures in male brains differ from those structures in female brains is not controversial.

https://www.webmd.com/brain/features/how-male-female-brains-differ#1

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/men-women-different-brains1.htm

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/males-and-females-differ-in-specific-brain-structures

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

So, you now apparently believe that men and women have different brains? So, you accept that the 'gender gap' in earned income is due to the inherent differences in the brains of men and women? Or, are wages among the list of things completely unaffected by men's brains and women's brains?

Strawmanning much? The research is there for you to see.

I'm asking you, if you actually believe that men's and women's brains to be systematically different, why do you not also believe this could be a cause, or partial cause, of the gender pay gap?