Trans activists: Trans women should not be required to suppress testosterone to play on women's teams

[Toni]

Just briefly on the menstruation thing, it could be said (by a pedant) that ‘people who menstruate’ is not a very good substitute for ‘women’, which in a way would make both the person who used the term AND J K Rowling, both wrong, I think, if I understand the original exchanges right.

Exactly.

JK Rowling is entirely irrelevant to the argument or this discussion.

 

[Jarhyn]

In short, when I utter "man", it has a meaning much in the same way as when I utter "furry". And in polite usage, any other such utterance ascribing masculinity or femininity, on the basis of how one identifies themselves. Because the relationship in nature, the one I have here, is such that: I compare what you tell me you are plus what I have seen of you, with my model of that thing, and get a respect value. That respect value functions as a bias when determing what contexts of interaction, as relates to that respect, you are mature enough to handle.

When Metaphor utters "man", he has been clear: it means at the very least that he thinks that person was born with a dick, and he insists that be true for everyone else, too!

 

[Metaphor]

You have repeatedly made statements that only "born with a penis" can be man,

Oh, really? Quote me in context.

You have additionally said that everything that isn't the pe is (biochemically identical to a man) is insufficient for manhood

What?

You have made clear, here, that a penis is necessary for manhood, and that NOTHING else is sufficient.

I didn't say it and don't believe it. In fact, I have said several times that penises can be lost and the person that remains is still a man.

You have made logically clear that penis is the fundamental necessary component of "man" for you.

Quote me.

before you can demand sex segregation continue, you must first justify sex segregation in the context as opposed to segregation not specifically on sex.

And a functional result of expecting "sex segregation in spaces segregated by sex" you are demanding to know what is in my pants, or tell others what is in my pants.

No, I'm not. You are deluded. I am asking people to not violate the rules of sex segregation when they go into sex-segregated spaces.

I can't tell you want "man" means. Nor can you tell me. You can't tell me any more than I could tell you because "man" is subjective. It's an arbitrary concept. It's a "Scotsman" and you are trying to say "no true man".

Okay, luv. I can tell you what a man is. It's an adult human male. The fact that you can't tell me what you think it means shows me you have no fucking clue what you are talking about nor do you have any business spouting your nonsense in a thread discussing men and women.

I can tell you "can impregnate a human" or "has menses", but that isn't man or woman. There is no list of "necessary and sufficient". You're the one who plays that game around penises and vaginas, not me. If you want to refer specifically to "people who menstruate" use that group descriptor. Because "man" subjective, it is useless for objective measures and uniform decision making.

It seems like you are struggling under the weight of your own worldview.

Honey, no. A man is an adult human male. A male is an individual of the sex that is typically capable of producing small, usually motile gametes (such as sperm) which fertilize the eggs of a female.

The fact that you cannot define man or woman should embarrass you. Instead, you interpret it as a sign of your mental superiority. You are nothing if not resilient.

 

[Jarhyn]

Metaphor, you have said a "man" is "an adult human male". Again you have failed to give necessary and sufficient elements. Not only that, but you use "typically" in your language, again failing utterly to understand that we are discussing, specifically, an atypical edge case

Further, you have forced rules of sex segregation I to the conversation. I reject your "sex segregation". It's unacceptable, inhumane, and anti-social. It is borderline fascist. You have not justified sex segregation, merely pointed to it and licked it's boot.

Take your "sex" and shove it up your ass. You first have the burden of justifying why anyone, especially my generation and beyond, ought care about how badly it makes you cry when people use "man" in a way that you Metaphor disapprove of because it doesn't out people's genitals when they say it

I point to the fact that there are as many different definitions of "man" as there are people who hear the word. Definitions are meaningless in and of themselves. Especially group definitions like 'man' and 'woman'. They are not useful in this context

Also...

A woman aping the internal chemistry of a man with synthetic hormones and growing facial hair does not change her sex

Then when I mentioned someone born XY with a vagina (or any other configuration, I suspect), that that person is NOT a man.

Edit: are you seriously too old to even believe that hot trans dudes exist, and that you wouldn't know unless you had them with their pants down?

Sad. Then, like, half my friend group qualifies.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

No, I'm not. You are deluded. I am asking people to not violate the rules of sex segregation when they go into sex-segregated spaces.

The rules? I mean, the functional rules were mostly just 'Look like a woman? Use the women's. Look like a man? Use the men's.'

I'm sure a lot fo people had a bunch of assumptions that appearances and plumbing matched, or that what's written on your birth certificate matters, but in practice or law, where was that recorded or put into effect? You're placing emphasis on sex-segregated, but they were just men's and women's spaces. Transgender men and women weren't likely factored in. The whole conversation on gender vs/ sex wasn't a thing. But the 'rules'... how many places actually had them?

I used the men's room prior to transition, and early on in transition. There there was a good long androgynous period were I only went places that had gender-neutral facilities, but mostly avoided going out because the washroom thing was huge fucking problem. Then it hit a point were me using the men's room became a much more apparent violation of practical norms than using the women's.

That's just how it is, sugar lump.

My point isn't that this accounts for all transgender or gender non-conforming people. Just saying, this 'sex-segregated space' routine may be a little out of whack with practical reality. Some places did pass laws and official polices, I believe, so I guess you'd be on the mark in those places.

 

[Toni]

Abusers don’t only abuse women.

Gospa moja.

Whatever language you want to use, Slovenian, Polish, Russian, Greek, Hindi, Djambarrpuyngu, Pitjantjatjar, Warlpiri: it's still true: Abusers don't confine their abuse to women.

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor, you have said a "man" is "an adult human male". Again you have failed to give necessary and sufficient elements. Not only that, but you use "typically" in your language, again failing utterly to understand that we are discussing, specifically, an atypical edge case

Further, you have forced rules of sex segregation I to the conversation. I reject your "sex segregation". It's unacceptable, inhumane, and anti-social. It is borderline fascist. You have not justified sex segregation, merely pointed to it and licked it's boot.

You can shake your fist at the clouds for all I care. Sex-segregation is a reality across the world. If you don't want sex-segregation, you will have to deal with that reality.

Take your "sex" and shove it up your ass. You first have the burden of justifying why anyone, especially my generation and beyond, ought care about how badly it makes you cry when people use "man" in a way that you Metaphor disapprove of because it doesn't out people's genitals when they say it

I don't care how you personally use the term 'man.'

I point to the fact that there are as many different definitions of "man" as there are people who hear the word. Definitions are meaningless in and of themselves.

Alright luv.

Especially group definitions like 'man' and 'woman'. They are not useful in this context

Also...

Alright luv. Declare definitions not useful by fiat. Very convincing. So learned.

Then when I mentioned someone born XY with a vagina (or any other configuration, I suspect), that that person is NOT a man.

That person is probably an intersex male, but whether you would call them 'male with an intersex condition' or 'intersex' isn't too relevant. There would be other people who are intersex but might appear closer to female.

Edit: are you seriously too old to even believe that hot trans dudes exist, and that you wouldn't know unless you had them with their pants down?

Gospa moja, it's like talking to a religionist who doesn't understand why all people everywhere have not heard the Good News.

I'll go you one better than transmen. I've once or twice seen a young, soft butch lezza from a distance and thought 'he has a cute face', and then, upon closer inspection, have seen her tits and hips and realise I had momentarily mistaken her for a twink.

I am certain that there are transmen whose face I would find pretty. Hell, there are probably post-op transmen whose bodies (depending on how closely it resembled a fit male body) I would also find attractive. But those transmen are women, because people can't change sex. I'm not bisexual and nor, even if I were, would I find female genitalia on an otherwise relatively male-looking body a 'thing' I'd be in to.

I'm glad for you that transmen could be something you are into. That doesn't make them men.

As for 'not knowing'... what? Would you have me believe that I need to inspect somebody's genitals before I know what sex someone is? If you cannot distinguish transmen from cis men, I don't know what to say to you. Spend a second of time with them.

 

[Emily Lake]

Now you've gone off a bit sideways here. I support allowing transwomen to compete on women's teams with reasonable restrictions that account for the physical differences of sex. The push-back against transwomen competing isn't about them being male, it's about the inherent differences in physical capabilities that make it an unfair competition when there is no treatment involved.

But that's the point, Emily. The sexes were separated in the first place because males have a systemic competitive advantage.

As for 'treatment' - trans activists do not want there to be any medicalisation. Trans activists want school policies to be 'self-declaration' only - no requirement for medical, legal, or social transition.

But 'treatment' does not and never has eliminated the advantage that transwomen have. It doesn't retroactively eliminate a transwoman's male puberty. It doesn't eliminate a woman competitor's female puberty or hips or fat distribution. Treatment doesn't give transwomen periods. Treatment doesn't shave a centimetre off Hannah Mouncey's 190cm frame, or change Hannah's shoe size.

Sports were segregated on sex, because sex is a systemic difference that gives men an advantage. Sports were never separated based on gender and there is no sane reason to do so.

No, it won't eliminate every natural advantage, but it will reduce some of the most significant ones to a level that is relatively comparable. Estrogen will change a male-born person's fat distribution and bone density. Blocking testosterone will reduce muscle strength, lung capacity, and endurance. For the remaining items - foot and hand size, height, skeletal structure... I'll again say case by case basis. In this case, perhaps it's sport by sport basis.

 

[Emily Lake]

No. I'm under the impression that you can't change sex, and sports are segregated by sex because males have distinct physiological superiority at sports, compared to females. If they didn't we wouldn't separate sports in the first place.

A transwoman who never went through a male puberty is likely to be taller than average (as a result of puberty blockers), and they will lack any of the effects of a female puberty, such as menarche and hip-widening.

Maybe, maybe not. A male born person who doesn't experience the hormonal changes of male puberty might be taller on overage, and might have larger hands and feet, but I'm really not sure about that. Generally speaking, the length of long bones is managed by the adrenal glands, and I believe those function pretty much the same for males and females. I think (and i may be wrong) that the pituitary has some influence on how long the adrenals trigger (which would affect height), and the pituitary is sex-differentiated.

A male-born person who blocks male puberty then undergoes estrogen treatment (and other hormones), will not develop the bone density, lung capacity, and muscle strength that a male would normally develop during puberty, and will also gain the higher body fat ratio of a female as well as the distribution across the body of that fat.

I can maybe see some argument that hip shape and width affects performance in some sports, as it does change a person's gait, and affects the kinetics of movement. I don't see how menarche has an effect that is material in any way.

 

[Emily Lake]

Transwomen are men and they don't qualify to compete in women's sports, because they are the wrong sex.

What is the relevance of your statement here? Why do you believe the sexes are separated in most sports in the first place?

 

[Emily Lake]

Hilarious. Pretty anti-men at times, but If a clearly exaggerated-for-comic-effect comedy sketch makes me laugh out loud, I’m ok with that. Sometimes it’s what humour is for and what is best about irreverent humour. And the anti-men thing aside (which I’m assuming is deliberately part of the schtick) she had lots of very funny observations and a few home truths.

I'll take your word for it. I can't make it past her voice, unfortunately. It makes my brain twitch. Not figuratively, I mean, she's got the particular range of pitch that tends to trigger my epilepsy.

I also recommend Eliza Schlessinger when it comes to humor that looks at biology, gender, and social differences between men and women. And sh'es fukcing hilarious.

 

[Emily Lake]

No, I'm not. You are deluded. I am asking people to not violate the rules of sex segregation when they go into sex-segregated spaces.

The rules? I mean, the functional rules were mostly just 'Look like a woman? Use the women's. Look like a man? Use the men's.'

I'm sure a lot fo people had a bunch of assumptions that appearances and plumbing matched, or that what's written on your birth certificate matters, but in practice or law, where was that recorded or put into effect? You're placing emphasis on sex-segregated, but they were just men's and women's spaces. Transgender men and women weren't likely factored in. The whole conversation on gender vs/ sex wasn't a thing. But the 'rules'... how many places actually had them?

I used the men's room prior to transition, and early on in transition. There there was a good long androgynous period were I only went places that had gender-neutral facilities, but mostly avoided going out because the washroom thing was huge fucking problem. Then it hit a point were me using the men's room became a much more apparent violation of practical norms than using the women's.

That's just how it is, sugar lump.

My point isn't that this accounts for all transgender or gender non-conforming people. Just saying, this 'sex-segregated space' routine may be a little out of whack with practical reality. Some places did pass laws and official polices, I believe, so I guess you'd be on the mark in those places.

Your approach seems like a perfectly rational and reasonable way to go about it. Use whatever restroom other people are going to assume you belong in. The only difference for me would be that the androgynous stage should get to go wherever the hell they want, and shouldn't feel like they have to stay home. Because that just sucks.

 

[Toni]

??????????????????

Hilarious. Pretty anti-men at times, but If a clearly exaggerated-for-comic-effect comedy sketch makes me laugh out loud, I’m ok with that. Sometimes it’s what humour is for and what is best about irreverent humour. And the anti-men thing aside (which I’m assuming is deliberately part of the schtick) she had lots of very funny observations and a few home truths.

I'll take your word for it. I can't make it past her voice, unfortunately. It makes my brain twitch. Not figuratively, I mean, she's got the particular range of pitch that tends to trigger my epilepsy.

I also recommend Eliza Schlessinger when it comes to humor that looks at biology, gender, and social differences between men and women. And sh'es fukcing hilarious.

It's hilarious and honest and a bit graphic and not anti-man at all, imo.

 

[Metaphor]

Transwomen are men and they don't qualify to compete in women's sports, because they are the wrong sex.

What is the relevance of your statement here? Why do you believe the sexes are separated in most sports in the first place?

I've said it about a dozen times. Sports are separated by sex because women could not possibly compete with men without being trounced.

 

[Metaphor]

No. I'm under the impression that you can't change sex, and sports are segregated by sex because males have distinct physiological superiority at sports, compared to females. If they didn't we wouldn't separate sports in the first place.

A transwoman who never went through a male puberty is likely to be taller than average (as a result of puberty blockers), and they will lack any of the effects of a female puberty, such as menarche and hip-widening.

Maybe, maybe not. A male born person who doesn't experience the hormonal changes of male puberty might be taller on overage, and might have larger hands and feet, but I'm really not sure about that.

They'll be taller because they'll have been on puberty blockers and will experience a later puberty than normal.

Generally speaking, the length of long bones is managed by the adrenal glands, and I believe those function pretty much the same for males and females. I think (and i may be wrong) that the pituitary has some influence on how long the adrenals trigger (which would affect height), and the pituitary is sex-differentiated.

A male-born person who blocks male puberty then undergoes estrogen treatment (and other hormones), will not develop the bone density, lung capacity, and muscle strength that a male would normally develop during puberty, and will also gain the higher body fat ratio of a female as well as the distribution across the body of that fat.

I can maybe see some argument that hip shape and width affects performance in some sports, as it does change a person's gait, and affects the kinetics of movement. I don't see how menarche has an effect that is material in any way.

I haven't ever had a period, but given the physical effect it has on my sisters, I find it near impossible to imagine it wouldn't affect physical performance.

 

[Metaphor]

No, I'm not. You are deluded. I am asking people to not violate the rules of sex segregation when they go into sex-segregated spaces.

The rules? I mean, the functional rules were mostly just 'Look like a woman? Use the women's. Look like a man? Use the men's.'

I'm sure a lot fo people had a bunch of assumptions that appearances and plumbing matched, or that what's written on your birth certificate matters, but in practice or law, where was that recorded or put into effect? You're placing emphasis on sex-segregated, but they were just men's and women's spaces. Transgender men and women weren't likely factored in. The whole conversation on gender vs/ sex wasn't a thing. But the 'rules'... how many places actually had them?

I used the men's room prior to transition, and early on in transition. There there was a good long androgynous period were I only went places that had gender-neutral facilities, but mostly avoided going out because the washroom thing was huge fucking problem. Then it hit a point were me using the men's room became a much more apparent violation of practical norms than using the women's.

That's just how it is, sugar lump.

My point isn't that this accounts for all transgender or gender non-conforming people. Just saying, this 'sex-segregated space' routine may be a little out of whack with practical reality. Some places did pass laws and official polices, I believe, so I guess you'd be on the mark in those places.

Your approach seems like a perfectly rational and reasonable way to go about it. Use whatever restroom other people are going to assume you belong in. The only difference for me would be that the androgynous stage should get to go wherever the hell they want, and shouldn't feel like they have to stay home. Because that just sucks.

First, that isn't what trans activists want. They do not believe that there should be a 'standard' of self-presentation. They do not want a person to have to have begun social, legal, or medical transition to use a bathroom that matches their gender but not their sex.

But also: what makes you think a trans person's perception of 'passing' is tied to what the public thinks? If a transperson makes an error, and uses a bathroom where the people in it clearly do not think they belong there, do you think it would be right that that person gets kicked out of it?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

If a trans black person makes an error, and uses a bathroom where the people in it clearly do not think they belong there, do you think it would be right that that person gets kicked out of it?

fify

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Your approach seems like a perfectly rational and reasonable way to go about it. Use whatever restroom other people are going to assume you belong in. The only difference for me would be that the androgynous stage should get to go wherever the hell they want, and shouldn't feel like they have to stay home. Because that just sucks.

First, that isn't what trans activists want. They do not believe that there should be a 'standard' of self-presentation. They do not want a person to have to have begun social, legal, or medical transition to use a bathroom that matches their gender but not their sex.

But also: what makes you think a trans person's perception of 'passing' is tied to what the public thinks? If a transperson makes an error, and uses a bathroom where the people in it clearly do not think they belong there, do you think it would be right that that person gets kicked out of it?

Presenting metaphor: the world's foremost expert on what "trans activists" want.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Transwomen are men and they don't qualify to compete in women's sports, because they are the wrong sex.

What is the relevance of your statement here? Why do you believe the sexes are separated in most sports in the first place?

I've said it about a dozen times. Sports are separated by sex because women could not possibly compete with men without being trounced.

Right, it's about competitive advantage. But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage. But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. 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And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage. But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage. But where competitive advantage isn't present, it's still doesn't matter because transgender people are the wrong sex. And sex matters because of competitive advantage.


And also menstruation (or lack of it) somehow matters even though all we have to go on is metaphor's speculation that it does despite the fact that not all cisgender women menstruate, and certainly their cycles don't all align according to competition calendars. Oh, and there are those tall kids who went on puberty blockers like Jazz Jennings at a whopping 5'2. But it's a trans 5'2, so in cis terms that's probably like 7'28.

 

[Metaphor]

Your approach seems like a perfectly rational and reasonable way to go about it. Use whatever restroom other people are going to assume you belong in. The only difference for me would be that the androgynous stage should get to go wherever the hell they want, and shouldn't feel like they have to stay home. Because that just sucks.

First, that isn't what trans activists want. They do not believe that there should be a 'standard' of self-presentation. They do not want a person to have to have begun social, legal, or medical transition to use a bathroom that matches their gender but not their sex.

But also: what makes you think a trans person's perception of 'passing' is tied to what the public thinks? If a transperson makes an error, and uses a bathroom where the people in it clearly do not think they belong there, do you think it would be right that that person gets kicked out of it?

Presenting metaphor: the world's foremost expert on what "trans activists" want.

You too can be an expert. Just listen to what trans activists are saying.