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General Poetry Discussion

rousseau

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We have the poetry thread, and we've had a few discussions about poetry from time to time. Even this one will likely fall off the main page fairly quickly. But I thought I'd get a thread going for any general, over-arching discussion about poetry as an art form. A catch-all thread, if you will. Rather than including our actual creations, we include our thoughts on poets, and poetry itself.

I don't have much to say at this point, I've been writing poetry regularly since about 2014. Number them up and I've likely written around 300 poems. A lot of the early stuff I'm not particularly proud of, primarily because the act of creation actually does take time and energy, and a lot of the early ones were only half-baked ideas that I wasn't too committed to. But as the years turned I started focusing only on the ideas that really inspired me, and giving those poems more time. The result is that I've written a lot of stuff I like over the past few years.

To me it seems like writing poetry has gotten a bad reputation. The stuff people are exposed to in school mostly gives them the impression that it's a dead, boring art form. And it's no wonder, as a lot of what we're exposed to are old, classic, boring poems that conform to stringent rules, and obscure ideas. A far cry from some of what someone like Cohen has created. And yet for me writing it is a lot of fun, I can't imagine a more pure or interesting form of expression. Unlike novels, non-fiction, and works of fiction written for the sake of commercial release, with private poetry you can say anything, and use any combination of words you like to say it. Like painting portraits with language.

In terms of poets I enjoy reading, that's a surprisingly small list. Cohen pulled off the unthinkable with his career, I'm sure there are many that have been as good as him, but none that gained the same notoriety. Outside of him I like Cavafy a lot, have explored the poetry of Gord Downie, Georg Trakl, Irving Layton, Allen Ginsberg, Maria Rainer Rilke, and a few others. I find it particularly hard to find new poets I like without recommendations, and I only get recommendations from a certain local bookshop, and only when they have something good on hand. But really - Leonard Cohen - Book of Longing and Book of Mercy are masterpieces, two books that say everything that I'll ever want to say for the rest of my life. I wish I could write something better than what's contained in these two books, but like music and movies that are continuously re-hashed, Cohen got to the heart of the matter first.
 
I won't push this thread much further, as it doesn't look like there's much interest, but I did want to comment on a recent experience of mine regarding my poetry.

Every now and then I get a small bit of enthusiasm, and maybe misplaced sense of community and attempt to share bits and pieces of my writing. I've been writing online long enough now that I'm firmly aware of the realities behind it. For the most part, very few people read anything, let alone the stuff I'm writing which has no relevance to them. And yet a few days ago I got a surge of enthusiasm, made a Medium profile, and posted a few examples of my poetry on it.

I genuinely wasn't expecting much interest when I posted it to a small list on Facebook, but it got me to thinking about the people I'm actually connected to on the internet, on Facebook, on Instagram, and other social channels. And after a bit of introspection I was forced to admit that I have no real friends outside of my wife. I analyzed my Facebook friends list and realized that almost every single person was either a distant acquaintance, an old friend I rarely talk to, or a family member that I'm not actually close with. Here I was confidently posting examples of my poetry, with little to no awareness that these people I was sharing it with have little real connection with me. Suddenly my enthusiasm dropped.

I've read a lot of Leonard Cohen, his poetry, and about his story, and it's interesting that even someone with his skill-level, and with the magnitude of his career, kind of fell to the back pages of history until he released 'Hallelujah', then had a brief period of popularity. You could tell that he got to a point with his writing where he wasn't doing it for other people anymore, he was doing it for himself, and by the end there was a pretty distinct sadness and feeling of isolation to it. There was no joy left in his poetry, he was tired and bored.

It feels like that's where I'm going with it. Lately I don't feel as inspired to write, and I don't feel as much purpose in it when there's no audience. In some respects it feels like I'm moving into a new stage of life where I'm here to serve others, and nothing else, things I express don't matter. Where all that's left is a world of petty concerns, ignorance, fear, mistrust, hate, and aggression.

Ok, that's my rant over then.
 
Poetry (as read, not written; any poetry I've written was foolish overreach) was a huge part of my cultural life in high school and college -- to my regret, I've not returned to it nearly enough in the years since. About five years ago I went through a Whitman phase and read Leaves of Grass (or at least a partial edition of Leaves of Grass; I think he kept adding to it over his lifetime.) I've spent the most time with the English poets of the 16th, 17th, and 19th centuries. A lot of 20th century poets do not get their message through to me, and I have no idea who's respected today.
Anyway, here's what I consider a perfect poem, by Thomas Hardy -- read to us by my 12th grade English teacher in one of those moments that stay with you. (In college, remembering only the final line of the poem, and that it was by Hardy, I tracked it down and made myself a copy.)

The Self-Unseeing

Here is the ancient floor,
Footworn and hollowed and thin,
Here was the former door
Where the dead feet walked in.

She sat here in her chair,
Smiling into the fire;
He who played stood there,
Bowing it higher and higher.

Childlike, I danced in a dream;
Blessings emblazoned that day;
Everything glowed with a gleam;
Yet we were looking away!
 
I've spent the most time with the English poets of the 16th, 17th, and 19th centuries. A lot of 20th century poets do not get their message through to me, and I have no idea who's respected today.

Do you have a few names to share? I wouldn't mind checking some of these early poets out, I've spent most of my time with those from the 20th century.
 
I am lost to the world
With which I used to waste much time;
It has for so long known nothing of me,
It may well believe that I am dead.
Nor am I at all concerned
If it should think that I am dead.
Nor can I deny it,
For truly I am dead to the world.
I am dead to the world’s tumult
And rest in a quiet realm!
I live alone in my heaven,
In my love, in my song!

Friedrich Rückert

Translation © Richard Stokes, author of The Book of Lieder (Faber, 2005)
 
I made a list. Most of these are in my favorite anthology, The Viking Book of Poetry of the English Speaking World, edited by Richard Aldington (1941). This will sound like The Greatest Hits of English Lit I, but I've known most of these poems for going-on 50 years, and they still move me.

Shakespeare's Sonnets (too many stunning poems to list them all -- #73 is perhaps the best-known; it starts 'That time of year...' Perfect poem.)
Milton - On His Blindness (aka 'When I consider...')
Marvell - To His Coy Mistress (I couldn't believe this one when I was a teenager getting into poetry -- very racy; cheerfully racy)
Byron - Darkness (long and strange)
Shelley - Ozymandias (short and casts a strong spell)
Keats - Many, but esp. his sonnet on Chapman's Homer, his ode to the Grecian urn, and his haunting sonnet that begins "When I have fears that I may cease to be'
Tennyson - Crossing the Bar, The Eagle
Browning - the dramatic monologues, esp. Bishop Orders His Tomb..., Fra Lippo Lippi, and above all, My Last Duchess
Arnold - Dover Beach (ravishing poem)

Among American poets, I admire Bryant, esp. Thanatopsis, Whitman (at length), Dickinson, and, jumping ahead, Robert Frost -- I think Frost ranks with the best English poets in his seamless word craft and creation of mood.
 
I made a list. Most of these are in my favorite anthology, The Viking Book of Poetry of the English Speaking World, edited by Richard Aldington (1941). This will sound like The Greatest Hits of English Lit I, but I've known most of these poems for going-on 50 years, and they still move me.

Shakespeare's Sonnets (too many stunning poems to list them all -- #73 is perhaps the best-known; it starts 'That time of year...' Perfect poem.)
Milton - On His Blindness (aka 'When I consider...')
Marvell - To His Coy Mistress (I couldn't believe this one when I was a teenager getting into poetry -- very racy; cheerfully racy)
Byron - Darkness (long and strange)
Shelley - Ozymandias (short and casts a strong spell)
Keats - Many, but esp. his sonnet on Chapman's Homer, his ode to the Grecian urn, and his haunting sonnet that begins "When I have fears that I may cease to be'
Tennyson - Crossing the Bar, The Eagle
Browning - the dramatic monologues, esp. Bishop Orders His Tomb..., Fra Lippo Lippi, and above all, My Last Duchess
Arnold - Dover Beach (ravishing poem)

Among American poets, I admire Bryant, esp. Thanatopsis, Whitman (at length), Dickinson, and, jumping ahead, Robert Frost -- I think Frost ranks with the best English poets in his seamless word craft and creation of mood.

I downloaded a lot of this to my e-reader a few days ago. Didn't get through a ton of it and much was very good, although it would seem like I prefer modern poetry ~ 20th century and beyond. A lot of this early stuff seems a little too intentionally obscure for me. Incredibly beautiful wordplay to be sure, although I often prefer the meaning, or at least my interpretation of the meaning to be crystal clear. I like the ideas a little more than the wordplay itself.

I wonder if the disparity in style comes from the fact that in Shakespeare's day literature was a relatively new phenomenon. Wordsmiths would be quite novel and popular. These days with way more competition in terms of entertainment, and the earlier centuries style already cemented, poets need to dig a little deeper to stand out.

At the same time when authors obscure themselves from their own writing there is a kind of appeal there to me.. 'I'm here, now try to see me'.
 
Well, poetry is easily as subjective as one's choice of music -- and strikes many of the same emotional notes. (Still, of the ones I listed, I find sonnet 73, the Marvell, Ozymandias and Dover Beach speak with an immediacy and sharpness that get right to the theme and eschew decoration.)
Anyway, you can have fun with some of the English poetic porn from the old days. Lord John Wilmot's Signior Dildo (1673) goes on a few too many stanzas, but some of it would fit on the bathroom wall of any respectable junior high of today. Jonathan Swift's The Lady's Dressing Room (1732) is equal parts disgusting and amusing, but it's also a convincing portrait of a sexually confused prig (the narrator.)
Amazing that Wilmot's dildo poem is going on 350 years old.
 
I cannot claim and great depth or even breadth of knowledge of poetry. As a child I memorized some of my own free will: Stevenson’s Land of Nod, Nancy Hanks by Benet, Stopping By The Woods on a Snowy Evening by Frost. The Creation by James Weldon Johnson remains one of my favorite poems. In my mind, it is always read by James Earl Jones. This administration has made me remember God’s Judgement on the Wicked Bishop.

I fell in love with Shakespeare in elementary school and still love the poetry of his plays more than his sonnets. Favorites: The Tempest and King Lear. It is the language that seduces, that draws me in and keeps me wrapped up in that glorious symphony of words.

I love e.e. Cummings whose poetry can be filled with child like innovence, deep romance and enough earthy profanity that I actually taught more than one teenage boy to love him, too. See: “the boys I mean are not refined “ to understand why.


I am moved beyond words of my own by Elizabeth Bishop’s One Art and Mary Oliver’s Wild Geese. Actually all of Oliver’s poems but Wild Geese really gets me in my heart and bone.
 
My error, 2 posts above: Swift narrates, the prig is poor Strephon.
I love Frost, too. The absolute perfect pitch and choice of words -- the simplicity of the language, which reveals its power in the placement he gives it. He was apparently an irascible person and impossible to live with, but he had a passionate aesthetic and communicates the quiet moments in which he was transported by natural beauty.
 
I cannot claim and great depth or even breadth of knowledge of poetry. As a child I memorized some of my own free will: Stevenson’s Land of Nod, Nancy Hanks by Benet, Stopping By The Woods on a Snowy Evening by Frost. The Creation by James Weldon Johnson remains one of my favorite poems. In my mind, it is always read by James Earl Jones. This administration has made me remember God’s Judgement on the Wicked Bishop.

I fell in love with Shakespeare in elementary school and still love the poetry of his plays more than his sonnets. Favorites: The Tempest and King Lear. It is the language that seduces, that draws me in and keeps me wrapped up in that glorious symphony of words.

I love e.e. Cummings whose poetry can be filled with child like innovence, deep romance and enough earthy profanity that I actually taught more than one teenage boy to love him, too. See: “the boys I mean are not refined “ to understand why.


I am moved beyond words of my own by Elizabeth Bishop’s One Art and Mary Oliver’s Wild Geese. Actually all of Oliver’s poems but Wild Geese really gets me in my heart and bone.

It'd be nice to have you post some of your favourites in the Poetry thread in the lounge, nice to get some new perspectives in there.
 
I picked up Death of a Lady's Man by Leonard Cohen in the past week, his release just before Book of Mercy. After reading some of the excerpts from Stranger Music, and the collection from the early part of his writing career I had the false assumption that much of his early stuff was a bit banal. But I was very wrong.

Death of a Lady's Man is a gorgeous book on many levels, so I went ahead and bought the prior one yesterday - 'The Energy of Slaves'. I think that has me under ownership of all his titles past the early collection.
 
I made a list. Most of these are in my favorite anthology, The Viking Book of Poetry of the English Speaking World, edited by Richard Aldington (1941). This will sound like The Greatest Hits of English Lit I, but I've known most of these poems for going-on 50 years, and they still move me.

Shakespeare's Sonnets (too many stunning poems to list them all -- #73 is perhaps the best-known; it starts 'That time of year...' Perfect poem.)
Milton - On His Blindness (aka 'When I consider...')
Marvell - To His Coy Mistress (I couldn't believe this one when I was a teenager getting into poetry -- very racy; cheerfully racy)
Byron - Darkness (long and strange)
Shelley - Ozymandias (short and casts a strong spell)
Keats - Many, but esp. his sonnet on Chapman's Homer, his ode to the Grecian urn, and his haunting sonnet that begins "When I have fears that I may cease to be'
Tennyson - Crossing the Bar, The Eagle
Browning - the dramatic monologues, esp. Bishop Orders His Tomb..., Fra Lippo Lippi, and above all, My Last Duchess
Arnold - Dover Beach (ravishing poem)

Among American poets, I admire Bryant, esp. Thanatopsis, Whitman (at length), Dickinson, and, jumping ahead, Robert Frost -- I think Frost ranks with the best English poets in his seamless word craft and creation of mood.

ideologyhunter if I were to pick at some of this from Amazon, are there any books you'd consider a must-have? The best of the lot, in your opinion? Considering a hard-copy of Shakespeare's Sonnets/Poems, but other than that..

Also, if you haven't hit on this yet, I just picked up this book by Rilke recently, a translation of his last two works. I know you'd said you aren't as familiar with the 20th century, I'd say he treads that line between classical and modern poetry pretty well. Very good work, although I haven't hit Sonnets to Orpheus yet.
 
The following is a very nice list. Greatest English Language Poets https://www.thetoptens.com/greatest-english-language-poets/

It's a list to which I agree that all listed should be mentioned and recognized as great poets. It's a list which provides the surprise, to me, of just how many poets I recognize and appreciate. It's a list to which I'd be comfortable adding Albert Camus and Ingmar Bergman at first blush. I would also include Slowhand, Clapton, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, and a few other pop musicians ... since I believe .... seriously ..... that tone and timbre should be included in the poetry canon.

What I find most amazing is that I actually know, have read, enjoyed almost all of the poets listed.

There are a lot of ways one can go about constructing lists of great poets. I find this particular list most satisfying. Sure I have my favorites. But to just read and drift into a flow of verse and mood from a simple name listing is something special and very powerful.

Just a little end comment. Most of the poets who haunt this forum are so much better than am I at the craft that my inferiority complex is usually throbbing when I participate to the point where I find myself justifying doing so.

It always comes back to my root advantage. I have a partner who is accomplished as enjoyer and writer of poetry in three languages, expert, sauteed in the craft, cultures of all three. She's humble, unassuming, unknowing that I use her as my crutch as ticket to play here.

Thanks dear.
 
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Sure I have my favorites. But to just read and drift into a flow of verse and mood from a simple name listing is something special and very powerful.

I can get behind that. One of the consistent problems I have, though, is how to pick from so many options.

I go into my local where there is a pretty big selection, but mostly of names and titles I don't know. So where do you spend your ten dollars on the solitary book? I'm lucky at other bookstore, it's much smaller and one of the owners is an English major and poet himself, I regularly buy his recommendations. Nice to get people pointing you to stuff out of the chaos.
 
One of the problems faced by poetry in the US goes all the way back to primary and secondary school curriculums. Learning to write coherent prose of any kind is considered so arduous and taxing, poetry is thrown out as sop to compensate the poor child.

As contrasted with prose and its rigid structure, poetry can be anything one wants. There isn't time to teach rudimentary form or rhyme schemes. As a result, poetry has become the finger painting of the arts.
 
One of the problems faced by poetry in the US goes all the way back to primary and secondary school curriculums. Learning to write coherent prose of any kind is considered so arduous and taxing, poetry is thrown out as sop to compensate the poor child.

As contrasted with prose and its rigid structure, poetry can be anything one wants. There isn't time to teach rudimentary form or rhyme schemes. As a result, poetry has become the finger painting of the arts.

An additional problem that comes to mind is that the brunt of poetry that's been published is quite boring, anything that isn't boring likely isn't acceptable to expose kids to, and when you do get those things intersecting it's from people like Shakespeare who is better appreciated when you're in your thirties, not a 16 year old who is sending notes to girls in class.

So there's a wide-spread belief among people that's taken as verbatim truth that poetry is pretentious, out-of-touch, uninteresting, and irrelevant, without them ever really being exposed to or exploring it's depths.

That actually makes a pretty good analogy for how most of us approach anything that is a bit unusual and takes a bit of effort without any immediately obvious payback.
 
For a long time Edgar Allan Poe was my favorite poet. His poems are so melodic: when I read them aloud I often sing them as a song! He makes use of meter, rhyme, alliteration, etc. His subject matter — often his yearning for a dead mistress — appealed to my own nostalgia and bouts of gloom. I also love Poe's essays on poetry. Read "The Philosophy of Composition" in which he practically proves that "The Raven," in all its detail, is the inevitable result of a quest for writing a perfect poem! :)

I liked Poe so much that I was annoyed by the large majority who insist Robert Frost is the greatest American poet. But I've matured somewhat and now realize they are probably correct. Frost's poems have deep heart-moving messages, but even their more superficial aspects, like rhyme, are exquisite. The AABA/BBCB/CCDC/DDDD rhyme pattern of "Stopping by woods" is special (and unique?) but look at his less well-known "The Gum Gatherer". It almost reads like prose rather than poetry. But it does have a rhythm, albeit haphazard, and the line-ending words do rhyme, although in a haphazard fashion. The net effect is to turn a dullish story into a pleasant read.

I've occasionally dabbled in writing poetry myself: e.g. a villanelle about Donald Trump, and a line-palindrome in response to 2001-2003 terrorism; but you should be happy to know I do not intend to inflict these efforts on you.
 
if I were to pick at some of this from Amazon, are there any books you'd consider a must-have? The best of the lot, in your opinion? Considering a hard-copy of Shakespeare's Sonnets/Poems, but other than that..

Also, if you haven't hit on this yet, I just picked up this book by Rilke recently, a translation of his last two works. I know you'd said you aren't as familiar with the 20th century, I'd say he treads that line between classical and modern poetry pretty well. Very good work, although I haven't hit Sonnets to Orpheus yet.

Don't know Rilke except as a name cited by critics; I'll dip into him. My favorite poetry anthologies have been on my shelves for decades. They're probably out of print but easily available on alibris et al. Besides the collection by Aldington which I mentioned, I like Louis Untermeyer's The Book of Living Verse, which, like Aldington's, collects both British and U.S. poets. Laurence Perrine's Sound and Sense is set up as a student text, but has such striking selections that it's a keeper. Perrine's book is where I found "View of a Pig" by Ted Hughes, one of the oddest poems you'll ever read.
A modern poet who reminds me of Robert Frost is Virginia Hamilton Adair. Her collection Ants on the Melon is full of graceful and conversational poetry. The title refers to humankind on the earth -- what a metaphor. I should read more poetry, though. I am a dabbler and once read a lot more of the great poets. The best poets demonstrate the power of language when it is fully explored and unleashed.
 
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