Seattle extremists at it again

[Derec]

I like how a lot of these posts get written as "Seattle is burning to the ground and has no future" or "Portland extremists have destroyed the city". These Seattle protests are in Capital Hill. If I showed you a map of Seattle how many could point to that neighborhood? Or how many could point to the TWO BLOCKS that made up CHAZ/CHOP? The "riots" are happening in a very small part of the city.

I agree that the "protests" in the PNW are no longer about BLM and have transformed into something that isn't helping the original cause. However, shut the fuck up with the "Seattle is a doomed city" bullshit.

Doomed perhaps not, but if this shit continues without Mayor Jenny or Ted Wheeler doing anything about it, it will drive people and businesses out of the city, damaging the tax base and economic vitality of the city. Exactly what Seattle doesn't need after the damage done by COVID.

CH is not the only part of town affected by extremists by the way. For example, extremists had been occupying I5 for weeks before that guy LARPed GTA and drove over two "protesters" about a month ago.
And if the rioters are predominately vandalizing businesses in the CH neighborhood how is that an excuse? Shouldn't these vandals be arrested and prosecuted regardless of what neighborhoods they destroy?

 

[Derec]

I keep pointing this out, that the origins of criminal gangs are exactly the enforcement of racially biased laws.

[citation needed]
And even if it were true, what does a history lesson have to do with enforcement of minors engaging in serious crime?

If you don't want to see organized gangs, you have to eliminate black market leverage. That only happens when Prohibition ends.

I am all for ending the war on drugs, and the war on commercial sex too for that matter. But it is an illusion that this would mean an end to gangs.
Illegal drugs are hardly the only source of revenue for street gangs even now, and much gang violence is about violence itself, not about making money. Crips and Bloods are not Mafia or drug cartels.

The fastest way to create disenfranchised teens and adults who rely on criminal enterprises is to declare them criminals and pariahs in the above-board economy and then giving them an activity that, while illegal, is highly profitable when they organize around it's sale.

What is then your solution for teens who engage in serious crime? Just give them a pass? That's not reasonable.

 

[Derec]

I do not give a shit about the "property" of a child prison. Raze them all.

First of all, we need to distinguish between children proper and minor teens. Minor teens often engage in serious crimes for which custodial sentences are very much appropriate, but in many cases it would be a bad idea to house them in an adult prison.
I mean, what would you do with somebody like him:
13-year-old charged in connection to several Opelika armed robberies

Save
A13-year-old boy is facing felony charges in connection with several armed robberies and vehicle thefts dating back to December.
Opelika police detectives arrested the juvenile Tuesday at about 5:15 p.m. and charged him with two counts of first-degree robbery, first-degree theft of property and first-degree receiving stolen property, police said Thursday.
The charges are related to the following incidents in Opelika:
A Dec. 15, 2019, armed robbery of the Murf-Mart, 1001 Frederick Ave.
A Jan. 6 report of a stolen car taken from the 3300 block of Third Avenue.
A Jan. 31 armed robbery of the Grub Mart, at 1803 Lafayette Parkway.
A Feb. 6 report of a stolen car taken from the 1000 block of Frederick Road.

Or her, if she hadn't been killed herself:
'Monstrous' teen girl gang 'hitta' killed 17 in Chicago

Gakirah Barnes would become the Gangster Disciples go-to hitter.
As fast as one of her speeding bullets, she soon developed a reputation for efficiency and bloodlust.
But pals say it wasn’t always that way and the teen had been driven to the streets by heartache.
When she was 13, one of her best friends — and fellow gangster — Shondale “Tooka” Gregory, was shot and killed by underworld rivals in 2011.
[...]
And suspected triggerman Odee Perry, 20, was clipped later that year.
According to detectives, they believe it was a 13-year-old Barnes who took Perry off the board.
[...]
The teen, who once wanted to be a social worker, was now a stone-cold killer who loved gloating about her exploits on social media — and flashing her bling.

Although, I could see an adult prison having been appropriate for her, so you might have a point there.

 

[Derec]

I do think that looting random businesses is bad.

A trailer at a construction site for a youth jail? Loot away.

Why? For one, a construction business is is also a business with owners and workers just like any other.

And second, as I have pointed out to Politesse, minor teens often engage in serious crimes for which a custodial sentence is appropriate.
Would you close all youth detention facilities, and then what? House them in adult prisons? Just let them go no matter what they did?

 

[J842P]

Why? For one, a construction business is is also a business with owners and workers just like any other.

Fuck them.

 

[Derec]

Fuck them.

Yeah, that's a rational response.

 

[Politesse]

First of all, we need to distinguish between children proper and minor teens. Minor teens often engage in serious crimes for which custodial sentences are very much appropriate, but in many cases it would be a bad idea to house them in an adult prison.
I mean, what would you do with somebody like him:
13-year-old charged in connection to several Opelika armed robberies


Or her, if she hadn't been killed herself:
'Monstrous' teen girl gang 'hitta' killed 17 in Chicago

Gakirah Barnes would become the Gangster Disciples go-to hitter.
As fast as one of her speeding bullets, she soon developed a reputation for efficiency and bloodlust.
But pals say it wasn’t always that way and the teen had been driven to the streets by heartache.
When she was 13, one of her best friends — and fellow gangster — Shondale “Tooka” Gregory, was shot and killed by underworld rivals in 2011.
[...]
And suspected triggerman Odee Perry, 20, was clipped later that year.
According to detectives, they believe it was a 13-year-old Barnes who took Perry off the board.
[...]
The teen, who once wanted to be a social worker, was now a stone-cold killer who loved gloating about her exploits on social media — and flashing her bling.

Although, I could see an adult prison having been appropriate for her, so you might have a point there.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be some kind of youth correctional system. I'm just saying that on my list of things to feel upset by, loss of property by a very controversial child jailing system is not high on my list. The process that led to its existence was notoriously corrupt as hell, and they are a legitimate target for acts of civil disobedience if the "proper channels" are not available or have been expended (which they weren't, and have been, or the damn thing wouldn't be there to vandalize). I don't see what a bunch of kids from Alabama and Illinois even have to do with the conversation.

 

[J842P]

Fuck them.

Yeah, that's a rational response.

What is it you don't understand? I don't care about the money of people who build youth prisons.

And spare me. No doubt, there exist some youth that might belong in prison. But many are there for things like violating probation on a drug charge, or even worse, violating probation for truancy. I've seen this happen.

 

[Derec]

What is it you don't understand? I don't care about the money of people who build youth prisons.

Why? It's a regular government contract and these businesses do not deserve to be vandalized by extremist nutjobs.

And spare me. No doubt, there exist some youth that might belong in prison. But many are there for things like violating probation on a drug charge, or even worse, violating probation for truancy. I've seen this happen.

So argue for reform of those laws - do not call for a construction company to be vandalized because you disagree with what they are building.

As to those supposed "truancy" cases, a lot of the time there is more to the case. Like the 15 year old girl supposedly sent to juvenile hall for not doing homework when in reality she was on probation for assaulting her mother and theft. The article does get around to mentioning that (even though the author still disagrees with girl facing consequences for her actions) but the click-baity headline is all many people will see.

 

[Derec]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be some kind of youth correctional system.

I'm just saying that on my list of things to feel upset by, loss of property by a very controversial child jailing system is not high on my list.

Even if you disagree with the youth jail (I think some youth belong behind bars!) vandalism is not the way to change it.
If we live in a civilized society, we need to hash things out in a civilized manner, and not via vandalism and arson. This is no different than right-wing nutjobs bombing abortion clinics. You disagreeing with a building's purpose does not give you the right to destroy it!

The process that led to its existence was notoriously corrupt as hell,

[citation needed]

and they are a legitimate target for acts of civil disobedience

No, they are not!

if the "proper channels" are not available or have been expended (which they weren't, and have been, or the damn thing wouldn't be there to vandalize).

So if you follow "proper channels" and lose, you are justified in using arson and vandalism to get your way?
If pro lifers try to ban abortion and fail, it's ok for them to bomb abortion clinics? Or it that rule only for left-wing nutjobs?

I don't see what a bunch of kids from Alabama and Illinois even have to do with the conversation.

They are examples of so-called "children" that belong behind bars.

 

[Politesse]

If we live in a civilized society, we need to hash things out in a civilized manner, and not via vandalism and arson. This is no different than right-wing nutjobs bombing abortion clinics. You disagreeing with a building's purpose does not give you the right to destroy it!

That's a hell of an assumption. What is your evidence that we do, in fact, live in a "civilized society" where everyone has an equal say in the governance of a city, and equal redress if crimes are committed against them? It sure as hell is not the lived experience of minority communities in Seattle or any other major city in the nation that I have heard of.

The process that led to its existence was notoriously corrupt as hell,

[citation needed]

The whole complex was extremely expensive to construct - $240 million - the objections of local communities were ignored, and no especially great rationale was ever offered by county officials as to why such a thing was necessary let alone beneficial to the district. The people who live there are ultimately going to bear the consequences of having this giant youth detention facility in their backyard, but as is commonplace the leadership of the city considered it fair game for political points with their buddies rather than taking community critique seriously.

No, they are not!

What is, then? If you're gonna riot at all, you should pick your targets with some sort of reasoning in mind. A county owned prison-for-tots makes more sense than some private residence or business. Taxpayers will pay for the clean-up, sure, but they paid 100,000% more to build the damn thing in the first place, and where was democracy then? To say nothing of its ongoing social and fiscal costs.

So if you follow "proper channels" and lose, you are justified in using arson and vandalism to get your way?
If pro lifers try to ban abortion and fail, it's ok for them to bomb abortion clinics? Or it that rule only for left-wing nutjobs?

Okay? No. Nor have I said that any sort of criminal vandalism, etc, is "okay". But the world isn't painted black-and-white. Sometimes bad things happen for good reasons. Sometimes bad things happen for bad reasons. I do not see setting a bus on fire to protest the school-to-prison pipeline as being even in the same moral universe as killing people to push your religious views, let alone morally equivalent. To reach such a view, I can only assume one need believe that morality does not exist in the first place, as I do not see how your case could otherwise be justified.

I don't see what a bunch of kids from Alabama and Illinois even have to do with the conversation.

They are examples of so-called "children" that belong behind bars.

In Seattle? Or are we having a completely different kind of conversation than we should be having about this incident?

There are no murderers at the facility as far as I know, and of the forty inmates scheduled to be moved to it when the center was first built, only four were convicted of crimes that would be normally handled by an adult court. You seem to be assuming that all these kids are hardened gangstas from da mean streets or something, but that isn't the case for most of them, if any. The people of King County bought a $240 million dollar cage to contain a few hundred kids whose "crimes" could probably have been addressed without involving the criminal justice system at all.

 

[cycomiko]

I like how a lot of these posts get written as "Seattle is burning to the ground and has no future" or "Portland extremists have destroyed the city". These Seattle protests are in Capital Hill. If I showed you a map of Seattle how many could point to that neighborhood? Or how many could point to the TWO BLOCKS that made up CHAZ/CHOP? The "riots" are happening in a very small part of the city.

I agree that the "protests" in the PNW are no longer about BLM and have transformed into something that isn't helping the original cause. However, shut the fuck up with the "Seattle is a doomed city" bullshit.

Doomed perhaps not, but if this shit continues without Mayor Jenny or Ted Wheeler doing anything about it, it will drive people and businesses out of the city, damaging the tax base and economic vitality of the city. Exactly what Seattle doesn't need after the damage done by COVID.

CH is not the only part of town affected by extremists by the way. For example, extremists had been occupying I5 for weeks before that guy LARPed GTA and drove over two "protesters" about a month ago.
And if the rioters are predominately vandalizing businesses in the CH neighborhood how is that an excuse? Shouldn't these vandals be arrested and prosecuted regardless of what neighborhoods they destroy?

What evidence do you have that businesses will shy away from one of the tech hubs in this country because of this? Are tech people suddenly going to decide it's more desirable to live in Omaha or Birmingham instead? Seattle attracts a certain type of person and business and that won't change.

Guess which part of town that asshole ran those ladies over in.....Capitol Fucking Hill. I have yet to see any "extremist" activity other than yard signs in Ballard (my home), Fremont, Green Lake, Ravenna, Georgetown, or Queen Anne. All places I've been in the last month. The fact that the protests and mostly contained to a single area isn't an excuse and the vandals should be dealt with and that's been a work in progress. This dude who ran those ladies down should also be dealt with. My whole point was that the hyperbole being spouted by people like you who obviously don't know the city is only making things worse and keeping people from seeing what's really happening. Seattle will be just fine and will continue to be one of the best cities in the country.

As for Portland, where my wife is from, the protesters were down to 100 people or less until Trump sent in his goon squad. It would have died out if the rightists, who typically want govt as localized as possible, would let the locals deal with their own shit and keep their mouths shut.

 

[Jarhyn]

We do live in a civilized society. We would absolutely like to settle things in a calm, peaceful manner.

The issue comes when one side says calmly and rationally "please stop sending jackboot thugs to beat, arrest, harass and hijack our people into the prison-pipeline" and the other side says "no", and then beats, arrests, harasses, or hijacks the other person.

So, we have to do it the other way.

People came to the table asking for things peacefully so many times, and got turned away by recalcitrance or outright targeting of continued abuse.

Rational discourse was invented as an alternative to violence. Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent response inevitable.

 

[ZiprHead]

I'd be interested in who these violent rioters were. Why are they being associated with the non-violent protestors?

I would be interested too.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'd be interested in who these violent rioters were. Why are they being associated with the non-violent protestors?

View attachment 29021

I would be interested too.

Exactly. Just more evidence that the protesters and the rioters are two different groups.

 

[Politesse]

Yeah, no one would talk on the phone or use a hearing aid while they're at a rally. No one. The only reason for wires are secret black box government conspiracies.

He's probably a freaking undercover cop.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yeah, no one would talk on the phone or use a hearing aid while they're at a rally. No one. The only reason for wires are secret black box government conspiracies.

He's probably a freaking undercover cop.

Those are not generally the hardware people use for talking on the phone. Or for hearing aids. Or cochlear implants.

Nobody I know between the ages of 18 and 45 would use that technology, largely for the fact of it's use in government intelligence applications: it makes you look like a fucking cop.

You do know who uses that technology?

Fucking cops.

When people want to talk on the phone, they use a Bluetooth. When people are hard of hearing, the technology has a different form factor.

He's probably an undercover cop. Because that's who uses that particular technology.

It walks like a duck and talks like a duck. You are saying "probably not a duck" with your sarcasm.

 

[WAB]

Deleted

 

[Politesse]

Yeah, no one would talk on the phone or use a hearing aid while they're at a rally. No one. The only reason for wires are secret black box government conspiracies.

He's probably a freaking undercover cop.

Those are not generally the hardware people use for talking on the phone. Or for hearing aids. Or cochlear implants.

Nobody I know between the ages of 18 and 45 would use that technology, largely for the fact of it's use in government intelligence applications: it makes you look like a fucking cop.

You do know who uses that technology?

Fucking cops.

When people want to talk on the phone, they use a Bluetooth. When people are hard of hearing, the technology has a different form factor.

He's probably an undercover cop. Because that's who uses that particular technology.

It walks like a duck and talks like a duck. You are saying "probably not a duck" with your sarcasm.

Well, "it's a cop", and "it's something else we don't know the details of" both seem like plausible explanations to me, in the absence of clear evidence. Given how they like to play dress-up, I wouldn't be suprised if it were an alt-right dipshit either. Another possibility - livestreamer. Pointless to speculate. Probably not a looter if they're leaving a record of their activities, but god only knows who shows up to these things.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yeah, no one would talk on the phone or use a hearing aid while they're at a rally. No one. The only reason for wires are secret black box government conspiracies.

He's probably a freaking undercover cop.

Those are not generally the hardware people use for talking on the phone. Or for hearing aids. Or cochlear implants.

Nobody I know between the ages of 18 and 45 would use that technology, largely for the fact of it's use in government intelligence applications: it makes you look like a fucking cop.

You do know who uses that technology?

Fucking cops.

When people want to talk on the phone, they use a Bluetooth. When people are hard of hearing, the technology has a different form factor.

He's probably an undercover cop. Because that's who uses that particular technology.

It walks like a duck and talks like a duck. You are saying "probably not a duck" with your sarcasm.

Well, "it's a cop", and "it's something else we don't know the details of" both seem like plausible explanations to me, in the absence of clear evidence. Given how they like to play dress-up, I wouldn't be suprised if it were an alt-right dipshit either. Another possibility - livestreamer. Pointless to speculate. Probably not a looter if they're leaving a record of their activities, but god only knows who shows up to these things.

Cop, bootlicker, doesn't matter much. You are assuming they are leaving a record, though. First and foremost, those devices are primarily used to integrate short range, often cryptographically protected, communications.

The use case, the classic user for that technology, is far and away "cop". "Probably a cop" is a well qualified conclusion, yet you reject it, why? Because you don't want it to be true; either way, sequestering and loudly pointing out such agitators so as to exclude them from being able to instigate trouble is the correct action. Better to treat a false positive than succumb from a false negative.