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Police in Utah gun down black cosplayer

There's actually a much larger hole in this theory - we have no reason to believe that he thought he would encounter police in the first place. He didn't place a call himself, he didn't attack anyone, he's in a state where it's legal to carry a sword. Simply put, he had no reason to think that cops would show up at all, and yet you are claiming that "suicide by cop" is the natural conclusion about his actions.

Cosplay normally implies a convention--a large number of people. There tend to be cops were there are large numbers of people.

Would those large numbers of people often be dressed in costume, perhaps carrying fake weaponry as part of the costume, and in keeping with the theme of the convention?

machete cosplay.jpg


Cosplay isn't my thing but I did a quick google search and this was in the first set of images. So, do you think she's planning on a suicide by cop? Or are those only for black men?
 
There is something seriously wrong with any society where 'suicide by cop' is even a thing at all; much less a thing so blithely proposed as a debate ending conclusion, rather than as the starting point of a discussion along the lines of 'how the fuck did things come to this pass, and what can we do about it?'.

If it is commonplace to commit suicide by throwing oneself off a bridge, then it is time to build a high fence, or to put signs up with the phone number for a suicide hotline, or to do something else to redesign the bridge in order to reduce the number of people who kill themselves in this way.

If it is commonplace to commit suicide by inducing a cop to shoot you dead, then it is time to redesign your police force in order to reduce the number of people who kill themselves in this way.

Our police are armed, but I am not aware of a single instance of 'suicide by cop' anywhere in the state, or indeed the entire commonwealth. Something is badly wrong with your police, or your society, or both; Dismissing a killing as 'suicide by cop', as if that somehow makes it not a problem, is a strong indication that attitude plays a large part in this. I suspect that the USA needs a lot more empathy, and a lot less 'rugged individualism'.
 
There is something seriously wrong with any society where 'suicide by cop' is even a thing at all; much less a thing so blithely proposed as a debate ending conclusion, rather than as the starting point of a discussion along the lines of 'how the fuck did things come to this pass, and what can we do about it?'.

If it is commonplace to commit suicide by throwing oneself off a bridge, then it is time to build a high fence, or to put signs up with the phone number for a suicide hotline, or to do something else to redesign the bridge in order to reduce the number of people who kill themselves in this way.

If it is commonplace to commit suicide by inducing a cop to shoot you dead, then it is time to redesign your police force in order to reduce the number of people who kill themselves in this way.

Our police are armed, but I am not aware of a single instance of 'suicide by cop' anywhere in the state, or indeed the entire commonwealth. Something is badly wrong with your police, or your society, or both; Dismissing a killing as 'suicide by cop', as if that somehow makes it not a problem, is a strong indication that attitude plays a large part in this. I suspect that the USA needs a lot more empathy, and a lot less 'rugged individualism'.

Well said.

I suspect that "suicide by cop" is commonly used as an excuse whenever cops kill someone they shouldn't, but how would one even prove that?
 
Cosplay normally implies a convention--
How many cosplayers do you know?
Seriously, do you have any idea about the frequency of cosplayers walking around outside of a convention?
Or is 'convention' the only place you've ever heard of cosplay?
 
Cosplay normally implies a convention--a large number of people. There tend to be cops were there are large numbers of people.

Would those large numbers of people often be dressed in costume, perhaps carrying fake weaponry as part of the costume, and in keeping with the theme of the convention?

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Cosplay isn't my thing but I did a quick google search and this was in the first set of images. So, do you think she's planning on a suicide by cop? Or are those only for black men?

Of course there's a lot of fake weaponry around. Cosplayers don't normally go around attacking people with that fake weaponry.
 
I'm going to have to ignore your math because:
1) It looks to me like you're pulling the numbers out of your ass.
2) It kinda reminds me of creationists trying to disprove evolution by throwing out numbers as if long shots NEVER come in.
3) The actual odds don't matter unless you can show that there's ZERO chance he was trying to be funny.

No. If the odds of it being non-random are higher than the odds of him trying to be funny
Since no one's established any reliable figures for either, then this cannot be used to gauge the assumptions you're going to make.
And either way, if both are non-zero possibilities, then the mere fact of the statement is not conclusive evidence for anything.
 
There is something seriously wrong with any society where 'suicide by cop' is even a thing at all; much less a thing so blithely proposed as a debate ending conclusion, rather than as the starting point of a discussion along the lines of 'how the fuck did things come to this pass, and what can we do about it?'.

Sorry, but any society with armed police will have suicide by cop. Make a sufficiently realistic attack on a cop and he's going to shoot you. (Note: Some suicide by cop cases involve actual attacks on the cops, not merely simulated ones.)

Our police are armed, but I am not aware of a single instance of 'suicide by cop' anywhere in the state, or indeed the entire commonwealth. Something is badly wrong with your police, or your society, or both; Dismissing a killing as 'suicide by cop', as if that somehow makes it not a problem, is a strong indication that attitude plays a large part in this. I suspect that the USA needs a lot more empathy, and a lot less 'rugged individualism'.

Barring a suicide note or the like it's almost never reported as suicide by cop even when no other explanation makes sense (for example, pointing a realistic replica gun at a cop who has just been chasing the car you drive. Nothing in the paper about suicide by cop but what else could it have been?)

Maybe people don't think of doing it that way, the potential is certainly there.
 
Of course there's a lot of fake weaponry around. Cosplayers don't normally go around attacking people with that fake weaponry.

My point. From the article in the OP:

Police said they were responding to a 911 call about a man with a sword when he lunged at them, swinging the weapon.

But his family says the sword was decorative rather than dangerous.

A narrative in the autopsy states an officer fired three shots when Darrien Hunt charged at him, swinging the sword, as the officer got out of his car. Darrien Hunt ran away and police fired four more times as they chased him, the report says. The autopsy found no drugs in his system.

An attorney for the Hunt family, Robert Sykes, disputed the officers' account, saying a picture taken by a bystander shows Hunt smiling as he talked to two officers.

Tim Taylor, chief deputy at the Utah County Attorney's Office, said Tuesday that Hunt talked to officers after they arrived, asking them for a ride.

So, smiling at police officers and then asking police officers for a ride is attacking police officers?

Or only if you are black and/or male?
 
My point. From the article in the OP:

Police said they were responding to a 911 call about a man with a sword when he lunged at them, swinging the weapon.

But his family says the sword was decorative rather than dangerous.

A narrative in the autopsy states an officer fired three shots when Darrien Hunt charged at him, swinging the sword, as the officer got out of his car. Darrien Hunt ran away and police fired four more times as they chased him, the report says. The autopsy found no drugs in his system.

An attorney for the Hunt family, Robert Sykes, disputed the officers' account, saying a picture taken by a bystander shows Hunt smiling as he talked to two officers.

Tim Taylor, chief deputy at the Utah County Attorney's Office, said Tuesday that Hunt talked to officers after they arrived, asking them for a ride.

So, smiling at police officers and then asking police officers for a ride is attacking police officers?

Or only if you are black and/or male?

I would think that there are pictures of him smiling and talking with the two officers is not particularly consistent with the theory the officers just decided to up and shoot him because he was black.

Or do you think they didn't realize it at first, but as they were talking to him they gradually realized he was black and decided to shoot him?
 
My point. From the article in the OP:



So, smiling at police officers and then asking police officers for a ride is attacking police officers?

Or only if you are black and/or male?

I would think that there are pictures of him smiling and talking with the two officers is not particularly consistent with the theory the officers just decided to up and shoot him because he was black.

Or do you think they didn't realize it at first, but as they were talking to him they gradually realized he was black and decided to shoot him?

I'm pretty sure that the pictures of him smiling while talking to the officers and also the eye witness testimony that he was not swinging the fake sword are pretty inconsistent with the police officer version of events.

I am pretty sure that somehow, the police version of events will be accepted anyhow.

My biggest questions are:

a) How did things go from him smiling while talking to the police officers go to him being shot multiple times in the back?
b) How much did the fact that he was black influence the initial call to police and later, the police behavior?
 
I would think that there are pictures of him smiling and talking with the two officers is not particularly consistent with the theory the officers just decided to up and shoot him because he was black.

Or do you think they didn't realize it at first, but as they were talking to him they gradually realized he was black and decided to shoot him?

I'm pretty sure that the pictures of him smiling while talking to the officers and also the eye witness testimony that he was not swinging the fake sword are pretty inconsistent with the police officer version of events.

I am pretty sure that somehow, the police version of events will be accepted anyhow.

My biggest questions are:

a) How did things go from him smiling while talking to the police officers go to him being shot multiple times in the back?
b) How much did the fact that he was black influence the initial call to police and later, the police behavior?

From what I have read there are several eye witnesses that confirm the police version of events - that say he was talking with them for a bit then lost it and started swinging the sword at them.

Also, there is much to suggest this guy was somewhat mentally unstable.

There is also, apparently, video from a nearby store. Have not heard what it shows but I imagine we will at some point. I think I will wait for that before rendering any judgment.
 
b) How much did the fact that he was black influence the initial call to police and later, the police behavior?
An especially relevant question since this incident occurred in Mormonland where blacks were considered evil in Mormon theology until a few decades ago.
 
But after you figure the % of black men who make such posts per day (.00001%?), .
I'm going to have to ignore your math because:
1) It looks to me like you're pulling the numbers out of your ass.

They are reasonable and perhaps overly generous estimations of the relative frequencies of these events. They mean that every day, 1 in every 10 million black men post that they are going to go out and get shot, and 1 in 10 million black men get shot without doing anything to trigger the shooting. IOW, given that their are about 15 million black men (not counting pre-teens), it allows for each event happening to/by a black man in the US every single day. But even if we make those events 10 times more likely, the combined probability is still 1 in a trillion.
Not to mention, such an explanation also requires that his known mental illness also be purely coincidence. He not merely joked like any normal sane person would do, and got shot via no fault of his own like any normal person could do, but he also just happened to be mentally ill even though it played no role in those events. In contrast, the explanation that his post and the shooting are connected by intent to create a situation where he was likely to get shot, logically coheres with the fact of his mental problems.

2) It kinda reminds me of creationists trying to disprove evolution by throwing out numbers as if long shots NEVER come in.
What is should remind you of is the most foundational principle of all rational thought. which is that when inferring the cause of an event, the relative probabilities of competing explanations should determine which explanation you favor for that particular event. If your friend says that he had sex with your mom last night while your dad watched, then (unless your parents are dead) the odds of this are not zero. Yet you are pretty stupid if you think that this is what happened rather than the much greater odds that he is pulling your leg.

3) The actual odds don't matter unless you can show that there's ZERO chance he was trying to be funny.

That is like saying that the odds that you will die if you jump off a cliff do not matter, unless you can show there is ZERO chance you will live.

It is not a question of whether the odds of him joking are zero, but that they are extremely low relative to other much more probable explanations for the co-occurrence. The odds not being zero only mean that given enough time, someday somewhere some black guy will get shot after joking that he will get shot. The actual question at hand is whether this particular guy got shot right after purely joking about it, versus the odds that his known mental problems were a common cause of both his post and his getting shot. Are they


My point was that people are treating the statement as meaning ONLY an intention to attack the cops while in costume and get shot. However small you want to make the odds that it was all a coincidence, it's still not going to be zero.

Correct that the odds are not zero, but the odds will are millions of times less than the odds that he was serious and was stating intent and that the post and the shooting co-occurred due to common influence by his known mental illness. The question is, based upon what we know is it reasonable to think he was just joking and that his shooting was a coincidence? No, it is highly irrational because of the presences of a obvious and much more probable explanation. Is it "possible" that he was joking, sure in the same way that it is "possible" that if do a handstand while picking your lottery numbers that you will win today. But the reasonable person realizes that it is so improbable that he doesn't bother standing on his head (or even playing the lottery to begin with).
The extreme difference in probabilities mean that "it was just a joke, and then he got shot" is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence to overtake the more more likely explanation that his words conveyed intent, which is what every reasonable person would at least tentatively conclude until such extraordinary evidence shows otherwise.
 
No. If the odds of it being non-random are higher than the odds of him trying to be funny our first assumption should be suicide by cop.

There's actually a much larger hole in this theory - we have no reason to believe that he thought he would encounter police in the first place. He didn't place a call himself, he didn't attack anyone, he's in a state where it's legal to carry a sword. Simply put, he had no reason to think that cops would show up at all, and yet you are claiming that "suicide by cop" is the natural conclusion about his actions.

This absurd post requires the assumption that it would not occur to most people that walking around modern American carrying a sword would not attract the attention of the police.

In fact, even the notion that he was merely "joking" requires that he understand that carrying a sword would attract the police. The joke would never occur to him, and it wouldn't make sense to anyone unless he understood that. So, both the joke and intent explanations equally assume that he understood (as 99.9% of people would) that carrying a sword around attract the attention of the cops. Your remark about it being "legal to carry a sword" shows no interest in honest thought about this. Is it illegal in some states to wear a ski mask and carry a gun outside, even into a local bank. By your "logic", we have no reason to believe that a person doing that would ever think it might be interpreted as a threat and might scare people at the bank and evoke a police response.
In sum, few human utterances have been more objectively wrong than your post. We have every reason, supported by every relevant fact, his own post, and every relevant established theory of human cognition, to believe that his actions would attract police attention and that he (like nearly every person in his society) knew that it would. You quite seriously would need to look to the most extremist forms of creationism to find claims more objectively false and refuted by fact and science then what you posted here (or maybe just many of your other posts).
 
guys, it's like a trillion to one to win the lottery so those stories every week of someone winning it are lies.

QED
 
b) How much did the fact that he was black influence the initial call to police and later, the police behavior?
An especially relevant question since this incident occurred in Mormonland where blacks were considered evil in Mormon theology until a few decades ago.

Let's not kid ourselves: it's relevant no matter where it happens. Look at recent shootings of unarmed black men discussed in recent months on this forum. Believing that blacks, especially black men, are less intelligent, less hardworking, less capable, more dangerous and more violent is a prevalent undercurrent to life in the USA.
 
There's actually a much larger hole in this theory - we have no reason to believe that he thought he would encounter police in the first place. He didn't place a call himself, he didn't attack anyone, he's in a state where it's legal to carry a sword. Simply put, he had no reason to think that cops would show up at all, and yet you are claiming that "suicide by cop" is the natural conclusion about his actions.

This absurd post requires the assumption that it would not occur to most people that walking around modern American carrying a sword would not attract the attention of the police.

In fact, even the notion that he was merely "joking" requires that he understand that carrying a sword would attract the police. The joke would never occur to him, and it wouldn't make sense to anyone unless he understood that. So, both the joke and intent explanations equally assume that he understood (as 99.9% of people would) that carrying a sword around attract the attention of the cops. Your remark about it being "legal to carry a sword" shows no interest in honest thought about this. Is it illegal in some states to wear a ski mask and carry a gun outside, even into a local bank. By your "logic", we have no reason to believe that a person doing that would ever think it might be interpreted as a threat and might scare people at the bank and evoke a police response.
In sum, few human utterances have been more objectively wrong than your post. We have every reason, supported by every relevant fact, his own post, and every relevant established theory of human cognition, to believe that his actions would attract police attention and that he (like nearly every person in his society) knew that it would. You quite seriously would need to look to the most extremist forms of creationism to find claims more objectively false and refuted by fact and science then what you posted here (or maybe just many of your other posts).

Just to note here that your hyperbolic and dramatic tone addressing Mumbles' remarks was totally unnecessary. One may disagree with another poster's communicated thoughts without indulging in such tirade.

Further, Mumbles was specifically challenging the repeated claim in this thread of "suicide by cops". The claim of "suicide by cops" implies the intention to consciously plan and create a situation with cops where the outcome can only be : being fatally shot.

There is no evidence that he was planning to have his life terminated by cops while intentionally creating a situation where the outcome could only be, fatally shot.
 
Can't rule out suicide by cop; but he was asked to put down his sword but instead chose to swing it at the police. That's Darwin award territory.
 
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