In defence of Trump

[jonatha]

When it's a right winger, they get a hard hitting opponent journalist trying to rip them apart.

Guess you don't get FOX on cable in Copenhagen...

 

[DrZoidberg]

I agree with this.

I agree with a small part of it. It is a right-wing talking point, though, to call "the media" the stuff it is being called. There isn't really a monolithic media and it is most often conservative snowflakes who rail against "the media" or "mainstream media" as if it is one leftist entity. I'd say that many of the criticisms could rationally be lodged against CNN in particular. Much of the infotainment is also conservative-biased and pushing outright lies to support Trump.

In the 80'ies we used to have a balanced media landscape where it was possible to get news from both sides. Then the Internet happened. By the 00'ies serious conservative media was dead or swerved to the left. Only the conservative infotainment survived. And the leftist media swerved even more to the left. While at the same time all news became increasingly tabloidisided. All news reporting became worse in quality while more obviously ideologically slanted. Today if you want to be informed there's, pretty much, only leftist media. Can you think of a single conservative news media outlet that isn't a total joke?

Trump's popularity, as I see it, came from him being a political outsider, ...

Full stop. Trump wasn't a political outsider. He was a political elite. He was being groomed to be a politician for decades and he was donating to campaigns and going to elite parties with politicians for decades. Prior to all that his father was politically connected and that grew into connections for Donald like Roy Cohn and Roger Stone.

If that was true, why did he behave like such an idiot? I agree that he belonged to the American elite. But not as a politician. I don't see Trump as a genious svengali whose presidency was part of a greater plan. I think he was just an opportunist. An opportunity created by Obama's abuse of power. Yes, using an executive order to push through Obama care, might have been morally justified, but it set a horrendous precedence. When to follow up Obama the Democrats pushed for Hillary he had a golden opportunity. I think it's as simple as that. I think it's just an accident.

 

[DrZoidberg]

When it's a right winger, they get a hard hitting opponent journalist trying to rip them apart.

Guess you don't get FOX on cable in Copenhagen...

Fox isn't news IMHO. It's parody. They're not even trying. Quality fact checked news is quality news, no matter if it's leftist or conservative. I'm not aware of a single quality conservative news outlet. Today they all seem to be left. That's a problem for democracy.

 

[Elixir]

If that was true, why did he behave like such an idiot?

Because HE IS A FUCKING IDIOT.
That is a huge component of his usefulness to bad people who have two or three times his IQ.
It is unlikely that you have ever met ANYONE more than three years of age who can be more easily manipulated.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Every news piece written supresses some information. That's their jobs. To sift out and decide what is relevant to report on and what isn't. And every news piece slants the story one way or another. And they all tell a story. Some stories, as they are happening, don't have a coherrent narrative yet, so the journalist needs to make one up to make the story readable. So that's no evidence of much.

It's more like, when angry minorities or feminists are on TV they are given soft ball questions by a crony journalist. When it's a right winger, they get a hard hitting opponent journalist trying to rip them apart. I'm not saying right wing journalism doesn't do this as well. Fox News is absolutely rediculous. It's just that there's more leftist media. It's all completely dominant now. And that's a problem for democracy IMHO.

Actual cases. Examples. If this is so blatant, point to a single, verifiable instance where an important news fact of something good Trump did was not carried by any media, or at least not by the 'left's' media.

There was an interview on NPR with a Red Hat who had slowly gone far right. She noted that the people she talked to didn't know about those huge peace treaties Trump was responsible for with Israel.

There people have no idea what they are talking about, and then use whatever they can to justify their position. The fact is, those three "peace" deals were in fact reported by the media. It is why every one here knows about them.

There seems to this issue that the press was antagonistic with Trump. Well, they were, in the sense that Trump kept doing crazy shit. We have a thread dedicated to the simple stupid. Then there was all the illegal shit.

What good did Trump do? He didn't accomplish much in office! All of the accomplishments were judicial and that was McConnell's doing, and then there was the gargantuan tax cut. That was it. Otherwise, he was being played, illegal tariffs, not shutting up about the fucking wall, renegotiating NAFTA with Mexico alone and screwing with Canada (our largest trade partner)...

It was one damn thing after the other. Three impeachable events! Russia investigation obstruction, Ukraine, Inciting a Riot at the Capitol Bldg.

Trump didn't fix health care, didn't even try. No free trade deals with anyone. No long-term trade fixes with China. He made things worse with Iran. Made a mess in North Korea. The media didn't fail to report good stuff, there was very little good stuff!

You're missing my point. I agree that Trump was a horrible president. That's not the issue here. Me (and Weinstein) am arguing that he was a terrible president AND the news was biased against him, making him look worse. Just look at any news reporting on him. They're all written like jokes, where what he did is the punchline.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If that was true, why did he behave like such an idiot?

Because HE IS A FUCKING IDIOT.
That is a huge component of his usefulness to bad people who have two or three times his IQ.
It is unlikely that you have ever met ANYONE more than three years of age who can be more easily manipulated.

Politicians are often idiots. They still look good on TV because they're media trained and know how to say shit so it doesn't blow up in their faces. Trump couldn't follow even those simple rules. Which to me suggests that's he's not a product of a political elite.

 

[Elixir]

...he was a terrible president AND the news was biased against him, making him look worse.

First of all, the idiot mobster is still "president", so using the past tense is not justifiable.
But to your assertion:
If anything, "the media" has perennially whitewashed his stupidity, cruelty and selfishness because it is "unseemly" to criticize the Commander in Chief so harshly.
It would be nearly impossible to make him look as bad as he actually is, let alone "worse".

Trump couldn't follow even those simple rules. Which to me suggests that's he's not a product of a political elite.

Pay attention, DRZ:

HE IS AN IDIOT.
Don't go fishing for complex and nuanced explanations where one simple observation is sufficient to explain everything.

 

[Keith&Co.]

If that was true, why did he behave like such an idiot?

Because HE IS A FUCKING IDIOT.
That is a huge component of his usefulness to bad people who have two or three times his IQ.
It is unlikely that you have ever met ANYONE more than three years of age who can be more easily manipulated.

Politicians are often idiots. They still look good on TV because they're media trained and know how to say shit so it doesn't blow up in their faces. Trump couldn't follow even those simple rules. Which to me suggests that's he's not a product of a political elite.

No one is suggesting he's the product of.... some are saying he's been a useful tool TOO oolitically savvy predators.

 

[DrZoidberg]

...he was a terrible president AND the news was biased against him, making him look worse.

First of all, the idiot mobster is still "president", so using the past tense is not justifiable.
But to your assertion:
If anything, "the media" has perennially whitewashed his stupidity, cruelty and selfishness because it is "unseemly" to criticize the Commander in Chief so harshly.
It would be nearly impossible to make him look as bad as he actually is, let alone "worse".

We disagree on this.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

There was an interview on NPR with a Red Hat who had slowly gone far right. She noted that the people she talked to didn't know about those huge peace treaties Trump was responsible for with Israel.

There people have no idea what they are talking about, and then use whatever they can to justify their position. The fact is, those three "peace" deals were in fact reported by the media. It is why every one here knows about them.

There seems to this issue that the press was antagonistic with Trump. Well, they were, in the sense that Trump kept doing crazy shit. We have a thread dedicated to the simple stupid. Then there was all the illegal shit.

What good did Trump do? He didn't accomplish much in office! All of the accomplishments were judicial and that was McConnell's doing, and then there was the gargantuan tax cut. That was it. Otherwise, he was being played, illegal tariffs, not shutting up about the fucking wall, renegotiating NAFTA with Mexico alone and screwing with Canada (our largest trade partner)...

It was one damn thing after the other. Three impeachable events! Russia investigation obstruction, Ukraine, Inciting a Riot at the Capitol Bldg.

Trump didn't fix health care, didn't even try. No free trade deals with anyone. No long-term trade fixes with China. He made things worse with Iran. Made a mess in North Korea. The media didn't fail to report good stuff, there was very little good stuff!

You're missing my point. I agree that Trump was a horrible president. That's not the issue here. Me (and Weinstein) am arguing that he was a terrible president AND the news was biased against him, making him look worse.

Clearly I didn't miss the point as I argued that it wasn't enough to say Trump was bad... I noted that there was almost no good from his Presidency. You can't report good where it doesn't exist. This is the stupid argument Sec of Def Rumsfeld used when the insurrection was growing in Iraq. He stated the press wasn't reporting on the schools getting built and painted... and rather concentrated on the violence... which truth be told was the actual problem and led to the deaths of over 100,000 Iraqis.

Just look at any news reporting on him. They're all written like jokes, where what he did is the punchline.

You need to defend this baseless claim. Find me the good that Trump did and the media that twisted it.

 

[Elixir]

...he was a terrible president AND the news was biased against him, making him look worse.

First of all, the idiot mobster is still "president", so using the past tense is not justifiable.
But to your assertion:
If anything, "the media" has perennially whitewashed his stupidity, cruelty and selfishness because it is "unseemly" to criticize the Commander in Chief so harshly.
It would be nearly impossible to make him look as bad as he actually is, let alone "worse".

We disagree on this.

Funny... I just had a three day discussion/argument with a longtime facebook friend in New Zealand. He has been cautioning me not to infer Trump's malign intent. I have been telling him that the close-up view reveals his evil intent without question. But he has insisted that I was jumping to conclusions. Up until yesterday, that is. Last night, he messaged "I take back everything I said".
Apparently the media has been far too easy on Trump and only the most blatantly heinous acts can convince people looking from afar that he is truly a stupid, malicious sociopath.
You're in Sweden, right?

 

[KeepTalking]

I think there is a leftist media conspiracy, of the simple reason that journalism is a humanities subject and humanities people are overwhelmingly leftist. Leftists are, overall, better writers, and will therefore get more media attention (even when wrong). When Trump says there's a media conspiracy against him, I agree with that. The fact that he's an utter moron who deserves most of the negative things written against him, doesn't make the conspiracy against him any less real. Both can be true.

That is not a conspiracy. It may feed a bias, but that is a different thing. As Stephen Colbert said, "Reality has a well known liberal bias".

 

[Keith&Co.]

Just look at any news reporting on him. They're all written like jokes, where what he did is the punchline.

You need to defend this baseless claim. Find me the good that Trump did and the media that twisted it.

Closest i can think of is his second response to Charlottesville.
His first response gave too much credit to the Neanderthals. Almost sounded like he was on their side.

Second response started to sound like he was on side with the righteous.
The media was all over the second response, lauding his leadership, encouraging him to take the right side, using phrases like "Trump finally started sounding Presidential today..."
Then the Right complained about his response. That got reported, too. Trump reiterated his first response, not his second, making his true feelings clear. Which also got widely reported.
So, there's an example of the media trying to give him credit for good, but Bonespurs twisting it around to make himself the punchline.

Oh. Wait, that's not what you asked for. That, i got nothin'.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Just look at any news reporting on him. They're all written like jokes, where what he did is the punchline.

You need to defend this baseless claim. Find me the good that Trump did and the media that twisted it.

Closest i can think of is his second response to Charlottesville.
His first response gave too much credit to the Neanderthals. Almost sounded like he was on their side.

Second response started to sound like he was on side with the righteous.
The media was all over the second response, lauding his leadership, encouraging him to take the right side, using phrases like "Trump finally started sounding Presidential today..."

Yes. Trump had two or three "This is the day he became President." media moments.

Oh. Wait, that's not what you asked for. That, i got nothin'.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We disagree on this.

Funny... I just had a three day discussion/argument with a longtime facebook friend in New Zealand. He has been cautioning me not to infer Trump's malign intent. I have been telling him that the close-up view reveals his evil intent without question. But he has insisted that I was jumping to conclusions. Up until yesterday, that is. Last night, he messaged "I take back everything I said".
Apparently the media has been far too easy on Trump and only the most blatantly heinous acts can convince people looking from afar that he is truly a stupid, malicious sociopath.
You're in Sweden, right?

Close enough, Denmark. I thought Trump was a stupid, malicious sociopath all along. Which I've made pretty clear all along on this forum. Which is why I created this thread:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?11245-A-day-without-stupid

My opinion hasn't changed.

Contending that was never my point with this thread.

I do disagree with your friend about the media being too easy on him.

I agree with Eric Weinstein in that we now have a society where all news lies. There's just no way now, in mainstream press to get, even an attempt, at unbiased reporting. There's no way to get balanced reporting, except months after the fact in long form analysis pieces in intellectual press, also with a tiny spread among an intellectual elite. For people not part of academia all we can do today is pick which lies to listen to. I think Trump had a point when he called mainstream media fake news. I also think that the news Trump did chose to believe, was even faker news. But that's splitting hairs IMHO.

I was in Egypt during the revolution. All western reporting was garbage. Only Al Jazeera was remotely correct. The funny thing is that my hotel was filled with journalists. At breakfast they all talked with each other. They talked about how to report on stories. How to slant it, etc. What they can and can't write. What is too boring to say. It was a valuable insight into how foreign press actually operates when on site.

I also think it's ironic how we in the 90'ies saw the Internet as a herald of correct and true reporting. We had no idea that we lived at the very apex of journalistic reporting and that it was only going to go downhill from there. I was myself guilty of this belief.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yes. Trump had two or three "This is the day he became President." media moments.

Yeah. God, they wanted him to succeed. Or at least rise to the level of 'not incompetent.'
But even the hope of that died, didn't it?

 

[KeepTalking]

When it's a right winger, they get a hard hitting opponent journalist trying to rip them apart.

Guess you don't get FOX on cable in Copenhagen...

Fox isn't news IMHO. It's parody. They're not even trying. Quality fact checked news is quality news, no matter if it's leftist or conservative. I'm not aware of a single quality conservative news outlet. Today they all seem to be left. That's a problem for democracy.

How is it the left's fault that right-wing media has become a parody of itself? Do you want US government to force Fox News to only put out quality news? How is that any different for the US than the media situation you decry in your country?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes. Trump had two or three "This is the day he became President." media moments.

Yeah. God, they wanted him to succeed. Or at least rise to the level of 'not incompetent.'
But even the hope of that died, didn't it?

Even in our wildest dreams, we thought the worst part of his run would be graft and adherence to Putin's demands. We got that and a lot more!

There was this hope he'd "grow into the job". He never did, and the AG and GOP covered his ass the whole way. And we are now here, at a question point of return.

 

[southernhybrid]

There is no defense of Trump. None. Nada. He's an incompetent, corrupt, mentally deranged man. Sometimes I pity him because he is a victim of mental illness. Still, it's hard to pity a sociopath.

It's the people who enabled him and put their power before the interests of the majority of the American people who have some explaining to do. Just like other autocratic leaders before him, he had a way of manipulating people.

Some supported him for their own selfish reasons, as he helped lower taxes on the wealthiest among us. Some supported him because they didn't know any better or they felt that they were being diminished by highly educated progressives and Trump was their payback. Some supported him because he promised them conservative judges that might be able to overturn things like the right of women to continue to have reproductive freedom. Some knew him from reality tv, and they had become fans of his based on his tv show. And there were even some men who were caught up in the machismo or macho thing. That group probably saw him as the alpha male, who would rescue men from feminism.

In the end, there is nothing to defend. He caused more division in an already fragile democracy than I've seen in my lifetime. Sorry, but I find any defense of Trump to be unwarranted.

So you don't think there was any reasonable motivation for anybody voting Trump over Hillary? Was it simply the fact that half of all Americans are evil and corrupt that led to him being elected? While it's seductive to see him as a great showman and manipulator, I can't see it. The man is clearly an idiot, incapable of deception. His attempts to manipulate various votings all backfired spectacularly. I think he won because most Americans disliked Hillary more. It's interesting to discuss, why that is? She was obviously competent at the job. She had the brains and experience. So a distrust of her abilities wasn't it.

I think it's worth bringing up cancel culture and woke. Today the left control the public discourse to the point where we can bully anybody out of a platform. We are threatening free speech. It is a real problem today. A problem that we in the left have created. That is a real thing. Even me, a lefty, find that objectionable and something I want to fight against. Biden has even promised to stop fake news and such. While I dislike fake news, I dislike attempts to stop it more. At least Trump wasn't going to do that. I understand his appeal. I would never support him. I think he's evil incarnate. But I still understand why he has allies.

I never said that, so stop pretending that I did. People supported Trump of a variety of reasons. I never said that they were evil. I know a nurse who was an energetic Trump supporter. She replaced me when I retired from my last job. She believes all kinds of conspiracy theories, including that the COVID vaccine is dangerous. She is a white evangelical and a life long Republican. Do I think she is evil? Absolutely not. I think that she is a victim of a man who's primary talent was in being able to manipulate people by telling them what they want to hear or be appearing to be their savior. To me, Trump is like a used car salesman who is able to convince the buyer that a car, that was never well maintained, was actually owned by a little old lady who only drove it to church on Sunday.

I also think that your claims about the media are wrong. Have you ever watched Fox News, or any of the newer far right media sources of news? Perhaps you are projecting what's going on in your own region to what is happening in mine. There are many Americans who get all of the, dare I call it news, from Fox. Sure, we have some left leaning media as well, but they tend to be a bit more honest compared to the media on the right.

I don't consider excellent sources of journalism such as the Pulitzer Prize winning NYTImes to be leftist. The Times has editorialists from both the left and the right. The Times does a better job than most sources of media when it comes to investigative reporting. The Times and WaPo have comment sections. Many of the commenters come from the right as well as the left. It may appear as if such sources of news are left leaning and perhaps they tend to be to a small extent, but these aren't the media sources that have damaged our country. These have always been mainstream sources of news, which until recent decades were respected by people of all varieties on the political spectrum.

Social media is mostly bullshit imo. You will see people from both sides over reacting and making absurd claims. Social media certainly has had a negative influence on my country. It has made it difficult to sometimes tell truth from reality. It has contributed to the divisiveness that we are experiencing now.

Btw, I despise cancel culture. I think it's disgusting to wipe out someone's reputation over a few remarks that they made or something that they may have done many years ago. I was appalled when Al Franken was run out of the Senate due to a few women claiming that he touched them inappropriately. So, you are barking up the wrong tree, if you think that people like me are a part of the "woke", "cancel culture" that some, mostly younger people have created. And, cancel culture isn't really a thing where I live to my knowledge. The US is a huge, diverse country with all kinds of different cultures. While the diversity is one of our strong points, it also sometimes leads to extreme tribalism and hatred. As a good friend of mine and I frequently say: "Trump has brought out the worst in all of us."

Humans all have flaws and we shouldn't be judged by a few flaws. Individuals are complex. We all have strengths and weaknesses. It was extremely important for me not to judge my patients when I was still working. I try to do the same now, but just like you, I'm not always able to remain nonjudgmental. And, as I said earlier, Trump has symptoms of sociopathy. It's doubtful that people like him have much control over their actions, although sometimes with the right influences, such people can control themselves. Unfortunately, when a sociopath comes into power, he is capable of doing terrible damage to a large number of people. Just look at history for numerous examples.

 

[laughing dog]

Mr. Weinstein is an adherent of the stolen election delusion. His thoughts are not worth talking about at all.