Why did Jehovah create Satan?

[Lion IRC]

Satan is mentioned in the OT, but the significance of Satan is not the same as in the NT and Christian theology.

I disagree.
Matthew 4:1-11 satan tries to tempt Jesus. Jesus hurls Old Testament scripture at satan
Mark 8:33 get thee behind me satan. Jesus knows satan knows what is coming.

This is hard core, primary, canonical theology. And it dovetails perfectly with Job 1:9-11 and Genesis 3:1 and Zechariah 3:1-2

 

[DBT]

Satan is mentioned in the OT, but the significance of Satan is not the same as in the NT and Christian theology.

I disagree.
Matthew 4:1-11 satan tries to tempt Jesus. Jesus hurls Old Testament scripture at satan
Mark 8:33 get thee behind me satan. Jesus knows satan knows what is coming.

This is hard core, primary, canonical theology. And it dovetails perfectly with Job 1:9-11 and Genesis 3:1 and Zechariah 3:1-2

What we have is not from Jesus, it is not Jesus who wrote the words describing that he hurled old testament scripture but Christian authors telling the story according to Christian theology.

The Jews tell a different story. You are trying to use Christian material, Christian theology to prove Christian theology.

 

[Rhea]

Valid questions...

Even though believers may not be quite sure of some of the answers to the above, which causes no "conflicting argument" to the faith anyway - They're quite sure that the emphasis on WHO they should concentrate and focus on, is more important! Reminding me of the phrase, ...blessed are the faithful in Jesus..


John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


Ephesians 2:18
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.


Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 8:12
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Philippians 2:10-11
So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yeah, but, honestly, WHY, though?

Why does the bully say, “I won’t take your lunch money if you tell me I’m great”? Why does the bully say, “yoou have to respect me or I will beat the shit out of you”? Or even, “Tell me how much you love me, or you can’t get in to school.”


Why is it that you think an all-powerful god would even think that way?

It just makes no fucking sense.

You are describing a bully. One who is clearly seeking love through threats.

They say when children are not loved they seek love. They seek it anywhere. When they do not find love, they seek ways to feel respect. When they do not find respect they try to force it through violence. Everything you say in those quotes sounds SO MUCH like a bully. I mean, there’s no iscernable difference.

And that makes NO SENSE in describing a god. It just doesn’t compute. All those quotes you just gave - a god would never say that. A bully would, but not a god.

Why does that appeal to you?

 

[Wiploc]

Lucifer is Latin for "light-bringer."

 

[skepticalbip]

Valid questions...

Even though believers may not be quite sure of some of the answers to the above, which causes no "conflicting argument" to the faith anyway - They're quite sure that the emphasis on WHO they should concentrate and focus on, is more important! Reminding me of the phrase, ...blessed are the faithful in Jesus..


John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


Ephesians 2:18
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.


Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 8:12
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Philippians 2:10-11
So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yeah, but, honestly, WHY, though?

Why does the bully say, “I won’t take your lunch money if you tell me I’m great”? Why does the bully say, “yoou have to respect me or I will beat the shit out of you”? Or even, “Tell me how much you love me, or you can’t get in to school.”


Why is it that you think an all-powerful god would even think that way?

It just makes no fucking sense.

You are describing a bully. One who is clearly seeking love through threats.

They say when children are not loved they seek love. They seek it anywhere. When they do not find love, they seek ways to feel respect. When they do not find respect they try to force it through violence. Everything you say in those quotes sounds SO MUCH like a bully. I mean, there’s no iscernable difference.

And that makes NO SENSE in describing a god. It just doesn’t compute. All those quotes you just gave - a god would never say that. A bully would, but not a god.

Why does that appeal to you?

That is a great question, one that I would like to see some Christian answer.

The Christian idea of a god is very much like that of a mafia don and his 'protection racket'. Where the Christian idea of god is some powerful critter that says, "Love, obey, adore, and praise me and I will reward you - don't and I will see you suffer eternal torment. While with the mafia don's protection racket you are told to honor and obey the don and you will be treated well - don't and you will be crushed.

It is difficult to understand why either of these would be something that anyone would praise, although there are some who accept one or both of these as wonderful. Maybe some people just admire anyone or anything with power even if they have to invent that someone or something. Maybe some people mistake fear for love or admiration, there is the old expression where a faithful Christian will describe themselves as a 'god fearing" person.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It is difficult to understand why either of these would be something that anyone would praise, although there are some who accept one or both of these as wonderful. Maybe some people just admire anyone or anything with power even if they have to invent that someone or something. Maybe some people mistake fear for love or admiration, there is the old expression where a faithful Christian will describe themselves as a 'god fearing" person.

Makes me think of high school. Dad discovers my latest plan to do something to get some girl's attention, talks me out of it (either by threatening to call the cops or refusing to call an ambulance), and finishes with "you don't WANT the kind of girl who would be impressed by that kind of stunt."
Which, in the long run, was right. I am not the kind of guy that would enjoy a relationship with stupid-stunt-impressionable girls. I haven't got the knees to keep renewing our vows, for one...

But, if the Mormons are right, i could have ended up making my own world. Being a god to my own people. Would i want t o set up a protection-racket scheme for my people? Never mind what that says about me, would i want to spend eternity surrounded by the people that best responded to the threats? And being isolated from anyone that detected the bullshit nature of the racket?

 

[abaddon]

An invisible friend in the form of a celestial Strong Man, means you're very special to have gotten into his good graces. The stories are to make sure you understand what's at stake if you don't stay in the Strong Man's good graces... The more horrible the consequences of losing those good graces, the more you strive to be a good follower/soldier (and the more special and strong you feel).

In the end, it's a borrowed sense of self. The love and protection of a Strong Man gives a feeling of strength compared against what a vulnerable creature you'd be without the good graces of the Strong Man. If the strength you had at birth was shamed out of you, there's a story on offer about how to get strength somewhere else.

Bow down to gain a god's strength. Yeah it's little different from kissing the Don's hand in trade for a favor.

 

[skepticalbip]

An invisible friend in the form of a celestial Strong Man, means you're very special to have gotten into his good graces. The stories are to make sure you understand what's at stake if you don't stay in the Strong Man's good graces... The more horrible the consequences of losing those good graces, the more you strive to be a good follower/soldier (and the more special and strong you feel). In the end, it's a borrowed sense of self. You were raised to think you suck and the story about salvation lets you do something about that. The love and protection of a Strong Man gives a feeling of invincibility compared against what a fucked up creature you'd be without the good graces of the Strong Man. So, in short, it's a borrowed sense of strength. When whatever strength you had at birth was beaten out of you with tales of sin and shame as you grew up, you have to get it somewhere else.

Bow down to lean on another's strength. Yes, it's little different from kissing the Don's hand in trade for a favor.

Is it really? Buying into the Don's protection racket will protect you, not only from the Don's vengeance, but also his protection from other street thugs that may otherwise see you as an easy target. The Don protects his territory so will crush other thugs that try to mess with his protection money income.

 

[abaddon]

Bow down to lean on another's strength. Yes, it's little different from kissing the Don's hand in trade for a favor.

Is it really? Buying into the Don's protection racket will protect you, not only from the Don's vengeance, but also his protection from other street thugs that may otherwise see you as an easy target.

Do you mean there's a difference between borrowed strength and protection?

I think they get both. Watch any sycophant, whether it's the mussolini guy that just joined TFT or any of the Trumpers in the news. They don't just want the imagination there's a protector of their weak asses. They want a sense of self so they can feel like a somebody. It's not just "save me, I'm weak!" it's also "save me from feeling weak".

 

[skepticalbip]

Bow down to lean on another's strength. Yes, it's little different from kissing the Don's hand in trade for a favor.

Is it really? Buying into the Don's protection racket will protect you, not only from the Don's vengeance, but also his protection from other street thugs that may otherwise see you as an easy target.

Do you mean there's a difference between borrowed strength and protection?

I think they get both. Watch any sycophant, whether it's the mussolini guy that just joined TFT or any of the Trumpers in the news. They don't just want the imagination there's a protector of their weak asses. They want a sense of self so they can feel like a somebody. It's not just "save me, I'm weak!" it's also "save me from feeling weak".

But isn't the feeling of not feeing weak due to being in a group with a powerful leader rather than individual strength? The Christian joins a group with "god in charge" while the Don is in charge of the group of people who pay him homage. The group is strong so the individual members feel strong.

ETA:
A big difference being that the mafia Don is real and can actually carry out his promises.

 

[abaddon]

But isn't the feeling of not feeing weak due to being in a group with a powerful leader rather than individual strength? The Christian joins a group with "god in charge" while the Don is in charge of the group of people who pay him homage. The group is strong so the individual members feel strong.

ETA:
A big difference being that the mafia Don is real and can actually carry out his promises.

Yes. I was too focused on the "imaginary friend" in the individual's head. You're right, that it's a shared story is very important.

 

[Learner]

Yeah, but, honestly, WHY, though?

Why what?

Think about it for a moment. For believers ... If it is the way it is... then that's how it is - By God's command as we read it, even if we ourselves as theists don't understand everything - you're either with God or you ain't.. it's that simple!

Why does the bully say, “I won’t take your lunch money if you tell me I’m great”? Why does the bully say, “yoou have to respect me or I will beat the shit out of you”? Or even, “Tell me how much you love me, or you can’t get in to school.”


Why is it that you think an all-powerful god would even think that way?

It just makes no fucking sense.

Respect God by following His rules... love your neihbour (if only). ALL problems solved!

Making no sense to you - I fully understand your pov as you often say in your posts - not that it adds or takes away anything in the argumentative sense.

You are describing a bully. One who is clearly seeking love through threats.

What the scripture I previous posted implies is: If Jesus is not there... then NO ONE gets a second chance (new life and all that, related)!

They say when children are not loved they seek love. They seek it anywhere. When they do not find love, they seek ways to feel respect. When they do not find respect they try to force it through violence. Everything you say in those quotes sounds SO MUCH like a bully. I mean, there’s no iscernable difference.

And that makes NO SENSE in describing a god. It just doesn’t compute. All those quotes you just gave - a god would never say that. A bully would, but not a god.

Like the above, Love your neihbour etc..


We have you at least. Someone with knowledge of wisdom to impart - 'how to be a god' - "the knowledge that does make sense."

I guess a Judge and Judgement does sound a bit of threatening to be fair - depending how one sees it.

Why does that appeal to you?

If it is the way it is (as we see as truth)... then that's how it is.

Having to be putting it bluntly to you again: For believers you're either in agreement with God or you ain't!

 

[Jarhyn]

Why what?

Think about it for a moment. For believers ... If it is the way it is... then that's how it is - By God's command as we read it, even if we ourselves as theists don't understand everything - you're either with God or you ain't.. it's that simple!



Respect God by following His rules... love your neihbour (if only). ALL problems solved!

Making no sense to you - I fully understand your pov as you often say in your posts - not that it adds or takes away anything in the argumentative sense.

You are describing a bully. One who is clearly seeking love through threats.

What the scripture I previous posted implies is: If Jesus is not there... then NO ONE gets a second chance (new life and all that, related)!

They say when children are not loved they seek love. They seek it anywhere. When they do not find love, they seek ways to feel respect. When they do not find respect they try to force it through violence. Everything you say in those quotes sounds SO MUCH like a bully. I mean, there’s no iscernable difference.

And that makes NO SENSE in describing a god. It just doesn’t compute. All those quotes you just gave - a god would never say that. A bully would, but not a god.

Like the above, Love your neihbour etc..


We have you at least. Someone with knowledge of wisdom to impart - 'how to be a god' - "the knowledge that does make sense."

I guess a Judge and Judgement does sound a bit of threatening to be fair - depending how one sees it.

Why does that appeal to you?

If it is the way it is (as we see as truth)... then that's how it is.

Having to be putting it bluntly to you again: For believers you're either in agreement with God or you ain't!

I suppose raping seems threatening too, *depending on what side of the exchange you are on*.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Is that from a Trump speech?

 

[Learner]

I suppose raping seems threatening too, *depending on what side of the exchange you are on*.

Indeed...

Just need a little more clarification to discuss a little further, as to who YOU think the sides of the exchange are - who finds raping threatening (how ever you want to describe it).

 

[Learner]

Is that from a Trump speech?

Best ask Trump where he got the inspiration for his speech.

 

[WAB]

Why what?

Think about it for a moment. For believers ... If it is the way it is... then that's how it is - By God's command as we read it, even if we ourselves as theists don't understand everything - you're either with God or you ain't.. it's that simple!



Respect God by following His rules... love your neihbour (if only). ALL problems solved!

Making no sense to you - I fully understand your pov as you often say in your posts - not that it adds or takes away anything in the argumentative sense.



What the scripture I previous posted implies is: If Jesus is not there... then NO ONE gets a second chance (new life and all that, related)!



Like the above, Love your neihbour etc..


We have you at least. Someone with knowledge of wisdom to impart - 'how to be a god' - "the knowledge that does make sense."

I guess a Judge and Judgement does sound a bit of threatening to be fair - depending how one sees it.

Why does that appeal to you?

If it is the way it is (as we see as truth)... then that's how it is.

Having to be putting it bluntly to you again: For believers you're either in agreement with God or you ain't!

I suppose raping seems threatening too, *depending on what side of the exchange you are on*.

Yeah, I would venture to guess that "raping seems threatening" to just about everyone, even rapists. Allowing for fetishists who actually want to get raped. But of those people, I doubt many of them would actually enjoy being raped.

I know of someone** who has had cuckold fantasies who found out the hard way that sometimes in real life what's exciting in the fantasy world might turn out to really, really suck in reality...like, oh say, when they find out their wife is knock.......













[ ***ahem. Who, me? What are you looking at? Hey! What EXACTLY ARE YOU IMPLYING MAN!!!!!!!111!!!!11111!!!!! ]

 

[Keith&Co.]

Why what?

Think about it for a moment. For believers ... If it is the way it is... then that's how it is - By God's command as we read it, even if we ourselves as theists don't understand everything - you're either with God or you ain't.. it's that simple!

But that's a cop-out, Learner. How do you know it is what it it? Why do you acceot it?

In learning chemistry, someone describes what will happen and demonstrates it, so we know what it is. Everyone who performs the experiment agrees what it is.

In sharing an observation, a joke, or an anecdote, they make it make sense, so we can understand it. We cannot accept it as correct if it makes no sense.

Your god is described as exhibiting behaviors that, in a human, would be alarming at the least. You cannot explain how this extortionate approach dovetails with words like justice or loving. You just shrug it off as something someone, somewhere, might explain some day., a problem only for non-believers.
But if Giuliani was defending a child-trafficking pirate that way, insisting "but he just IS a great humanitarian" you would not give him the benefit of the doubt.

So, why accept that this just IS? Why admit to other grownups that you accept SUCH a poor excuse for a defense?

 

[Jarhyn]

Why what?

Think about it for a moment. For believers ... If it is the way it is... then that's how it is - By God's command as we read it, even if we ourselves as theists don't understand everything - you're either with God or you ain't.. it's that simple!

But that's a cop-out, Learner. How do you know it is what it it? Why do you acceot it?

In learning chemistry, someone describes what will happen and demonstrates it, so we know what it is. Everyone who performs the experiment agrees what it is.

In sharing an observation, a joke, or an anecdote, they make it make sense, so we can understand it. We cannot accept it as correct if it makes no sense.

Your god is described as exhibiting behaviors that, in a human, would be alarming at the least. You cannot explain how this extortionate approach dovetails with words like justice or loving. You just shrug it off as something someone, somewhere, might explain some day., a problem only for non-believers.
But if Giuliani was defending a child-trafficking pirate that way, insisting "but he just IS a great humanitarian" you would not give him the benefit of the doubt.

So, why accept that this just IS? Why admit to other grownups that you accept SUCH a poor excuse for a defense?

Fundamental to this discussion is that ethics happens, much like math, in distinct domains.

There is ethics in the Darwinistic domain, there is ethics in the neo-lamarckian domain, and ethics in the "immortal" domain.

The correct thing in a pure Darwinistic model is "make as many copies as possible, defeating non-copies. Do anything that works to accomplish these things as there is only the end of copy-dominance!"

The correct thing in a neo-lamarckian model is what I would call "social ethics".

The correct thing to do as an immortal? Well, I suppose you could reference my last post in Dr Z's lovecraft thread in the existence of god forum? I don't want to rehash that.

Essentially, these distinct domains indicate that God isn't bound by ethics because the reasons we have for ethics simply don't have meaning in that domain. So the only multiverse wherein god could be "good" is one in which, while they are perhaps not constrained by mortality within the context of the universe they are still mortal, in some capacity, in their own personal context.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Essentially, these distinct domains indicate that God isn't bound by ethics because the reasons we have for ethics simply don't have meaning in that domain. So the only multiverse wherein god could be "good" is one in which, while they are perhaps not constrained by mortality within the context of the universe they are still mortal, in some capacity, in their own personal context.

I will stipulate that a non-human may not obey human ethics.
But why eould a human then approve of such an alien being?
Why do believers insist they get their morals from a being that exhibits such bad ethics when measured by human standards?