Biden begins erasing girls on day one: transgender executive order

[Lion IRC]

[discussing the straw-man they posted]

No, you posted a meaningless straw-man argument that saw direct response, to which your rebuttal was <crickets>

I mean for fuck sakes it's right here in this thread. Are you assuming, like Jason Harvestdancer that we don't know where the "previous" button on the thread page is, and are somehow unable to look for ourselves?

Show me the straw argument ???

If the double plus, goodspeak PC wisdom is that wimmin are equal to men, who cares if fair dinkum blokes have to compete with (and lose gold medals) to sheilas with huge biceps? Come on guys! Its 2021.

What are you afraid of?

 

[Trausti]

Humans are unique in that our sexually dimorphic traits like male upper body strength and female breasts evolved for no reason at all.

 

[Emily Lake]

Poor insecure, small-dicked right wingers are really upset about catching gender dysphoria.

Umm... also confident adult females who have some concerns about the effect of this on the functional equality of females.

Oh, do tell how what is in someone else's pants that you don't even know is there will impact your equality?

Because why has been posed WRT sports isn't "equality" at all. It's continued segregation.

If you wanted equality you would be tearing down the walls over the fact that sports are separated by gender OR sex rather than hormonal competitive advantage.

It would also solve hairy problems like XXY athletes...

There are many assumed elements in your post that are just wrong.

How does what is in someone's pants impact the equality of females? Let's take executive and political positions, where a self-declared transwoman gets counted as "female" in determining whether or not females have equitable representation in society? I do not believe that a transwoman, who has the lived experience and conditioning of a male and does not have any of the biological experience of a female, can accurately and appropriately represent the interests of females (half the population, btw) in business or politics. It undermines policies aimed at increasing the still-unequal position of females in society, by substituting males and counting them as if they are female. Recently, laws were rewritten on the DL in New York. Eleanor Roosevelt put a fair amount of effort into getting it in the books that each borough be represented by one male and one female. That has now been rewritten compliments of a transgender activist organization, and without taking it to the public for consideration, so that it reads "any two people who are of different gender identities unless they're both nonbinary". The person responsible for that effort has stated their intention to eliminate the language altogether so that boroughs are represented by any two people, with no consideration of sex or gender at all.

It also impacts the equality, dignity, and safety of imprisoned females. Compliments of the great state of California, self-identified transwomen can now be placed in the women's prison - regardless of whether they have undergone any transition whatsoever. The females affected by this were not consulted, and higher value was placed on the feelings of males who desire the affirmation of their gender identity than was placed on the safety of the female prisoners. Statistics demonstrate that transwomen engage in violent crimes and sexual offenses at the same rate as other males, which is orders of magnitude higher than the rate at which females offend.

The segregation in sports exists so that females CAN compete in the first place. And in many cases it prevents physical harm. In contact sports, there is a very real and material difference in the physicality of male bodies versus female bodies.

 

[Trausti]

It would be nice if gender scholars could pinpoint the exact stage in the evolution of our species when all our innate predispositions and psychological adaptions shaped by millions of years of sexual selection were magically erased.

 

[Trausti]

The segregation in sports exists so that females CAN compete in the first place. And in many cases it prevents physical harm. In contact sports, there is a very real and material difference in the physicality of male bodies versus female bodies.

It's madness that this is at all controversial.

 

[Jarhyn]

...transwoman gets counted as "female" in determining whether or not females have equitable representation... does not have any of the biological experience of a female

Now that's just plain wrong! The most significant part of being a woman in America today is a combination of hormonal outlook and social treatment as a function of presenting as female. There are exactly two things that transwomen don't experience of the female condition: having periods and worrying about pregnancy. That isn't even universal to all people born with vaginas.

You, Emily, are the one focusing on denying transwomen the social and cultural experience of being women in the first place. So your own bias creates the problem you cry about.

Second, as prisons go, it's a bad call insofar as prisons themselves are not a good answer to society's problems. Might as well complain about prisoners raping each other or creating prison gangs or prison slavery. You are talking about an ethically failed situation, of course there are no good answers for it. You might as well ask how to keep murderers out of a child molester convention!

In contact sports, there is a very real and material difference in the physicality of male bodies versus female bodies.

Hence why separating on hormonal competitive advantage. Do keep up.

 

[Jarhyn]

Show me the straw argument ???

If the double plus, goodspeak PC wisdom is that wimmin are equal to men, who cares if fair dinkum blokes have to compete with (and lose gold medals) to sheilas with huge biceps? Come on guys! Its 2021.

What are you afraid of?

Because we aren't saying (people affected by testosterone) should be expected or generally allowed to compete with (people not affected by testosterone).

Your straw man argument is, in essence, an accusation that those who fight for trans rights are asking to mix, for political reasons, those two pools of competitors.

Your post isn't even orthogonal to the philosophical questions involving the problem.

We are talking about the fact that because what this all boils down to (steroid exposure) should be handled in the basis of what it boils down to (steroid exposure).

Dicks and pussy don't enter into it for us.

 

[Derec]

Second, as prisons go, it's a bad call insofar as prisons themselves are not a good answer to society's problems.

What do you propose for an alternative?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Show me the straw argument ???

If the double plus, goodspeak PC wisdom is that wimmin are equal to men...

It is right there. There seems to be this retort that if there should be equal rights and equal respect... that means best male athlete to best female athlete, they have to be equal to, which isn't the case and a ridiculous extrapolation.

 

[Derec]

Dicks and pussy don't enter into it for us.

Testosterone exposure drives the differentiation of sexual organs in vast majority of people.

Let's not pretend these were unrelated.

 

[Emily Lake]

...transwoman gets counted as "female" in determining whether or not females have equitable representation... does not have any of the biological experience of a female

Now that's just plain wrong! The most significant part of being a woman in America today is a combination of hormonal outlook and social treatment as a function of presenting as female. There are exactly two things that transwomen don't experience of the female condition: having periods and worrying about pregnancy. That isn't even universal to all people born with vaginas.

You, Emily, are the one focusing on denying transwomen the social and cultural experience of being women in the first place. So your own bias creates the problem you cry about.

Lol. I absolutely LOVE IT when males tell females what the most impactful things about being female are. Thank you for mansplaining that the only reason females get discriminated against is because of my clothing selections. It's almost as if a male person raise as a male doesn't actually understand anything at all about being female.

 

[Emily Lake]

Show me the straw argument ???

If the double plus, goodspeak PC wisdom is that wimmin are equal to men...

It is right there. There seems to be this retort that if there should be equal rights and equal respect... that means best male athlete to best female athlete, they have to be equal to, which isn't the case and a ridiculous extrapolation.

I am relatively certain that Lion's post was intended as satire, not an actual reflection of his view. It is, however, often difficult to tell from written word though, so I could be wrong.

 

[Lion IRC]

The satire isn't deliberate.
Gender fluid theory mocks itself without any help from me.

Im making a logical argument. If discrimination is bad, then let's ban it.

 

[Metaphor]

So we have 12 pages of avoidance of discussing the OP. One person has admitted they don't like the executive order, one more has admitted he 'doesn't give a fuck', but I don't know what that really means. If it was rescinded tomorrow, would he not give a fuck?

I suspect there are a number of posters who disagree with the executive order but are too afraid to say so.

Please, don't be afraid. Being in the majority does not make you wrong.

 

[Jarhyn]

The satire isn't deliberate.
Gender fluid theory mocks itself without any help from me.

Im making a logical argument. If discrimination is bad, then let's ban it.

You mock yourself without any help from me.

Discrimination on the basis of sex, gender, or identity are bad specifically because they are indirect proxies for measurable individual capabilities.

How do you not grok this?

Like, if I'm hiring for the tallest ten persons, and I kick out every woman who walks through the door "because she is a woman" without measuring her height, I have discriminated. If I measure every person who walks in and the ten tallest happen to be men, I have not.

Here, it is not "man" or "woman", it is "steroid exposure" that we care about. Always has been. Will continue to be.

You are making a straw-man argument based on your failure to understand identity theory (that identities are not something that can or should suffer the action of discrimination).

 

[Metaphor]

...transwoman gets counted as "female" in determining whether or not females have equitable representation... does not have any of the biological experience of a female

Now that's just plain wrong! The most significant part of being a woman in America today is a combination of hormonal outlook and social treatment as a function of presenting as female. There are exactly two things that transwomen don't experience of the female condition: having periods and worrying about pregnancy. That isn't even universal to all people born with vaginas.

You, Emily, are the one focusing on denying transwomen the social and cultural experience of being women in the first place. So your own bias creates the problem you cry about.

Lol. I absolutely LOVE IT when males tell females what the most impactful things about being female are. Thank you for mansplaining that the only reason females get discriminated against is because of my clothing selections. It's almost as if a male person raise as a male doesn't actually understand anything at all about being female.

Don't you know that as soon as a male says "I am a woman", the world instantly agrees and his lived experiences become indistinguishable from females? If anything, he is even more womanly than the average women.

 

[Jarhyn]

...transwoman gets counted as "female" in determining whether or not females have equitable representation... does not have any of the biological experience of a female

Now that's just plain wrong! The most significant part of being a woman in America today is a combination of hormonal outlook and social treatment as a function of presenting as female. There are exactly two things that transwomen don't experience of the female condition: having periods and worrying about pregnancy. That isn't even universal to all people born with vaginas.

You, Emily, are the one focusing on denying transwomen the social and cultural experience of being women in the first place. So your own bias creates the problem you cry about.

Lol. I absolutely LOVE IT when males tell females what the most impactful things about being female are. Thank you for mansplaining that the only reason females get discriminated against is because of my clothing selections. It's almost as if a male person raise as a male doesn't actually understand anything at all about being female.

Ah yes. So you are ignoring that whole "hormones" thing, then. The fact is YOU and YOUR behavior are what exclude transwomen from the experience of being a woman. I honestly don't give a shit if you are a woman. You're still espousing shitty fucking views that don't correspond to the actual reality of cultural womanhood. It has nothing to do with you being a woman and everything to do with your generalizing your views to all women. You don't get to decide for "women" any more than I do. You get to decide for yourself. And that's it. As for me, I choose to decide for myself that I am going to respect people based on the lives they live, brains they have (and the hormones they soak in), behavior they engage in, and image they present.

 

[Trausti]

Lol. I absolutely LOVE IT when males tell females what the most impactful things about being female are. Thank you for mansplaining that the only reason females get discriminated against is because of my clothing selections. It's almost as if a male person raise as a male doesn't actually understand anything at all about being female.

Ah yes. So you are ignoring that whole "hormones" thing, then. The fact is YOU and YOUR behavior are what exclude transwomen from the experience of being a woman. I honestly don't give a shit if you are a woman. You're still espousing shitty fucking views that don't correspond to the actual reality of cultural womanhood. It has nothing to do with you being a woman and everything to do with your generalizing your views to all women. You don't get to decide for "women" any more than I do. You get to decide for yourself. And that's it. As for me, I choose to decide for myself that I am going to respect people based on the lives they live, brains they have (and the hormones they soak in), behavior they engage in, and image they present.

I'm a beautiful big black woman in a wheelchair. Love me for who I pretend to be!

 

[Emily Lake]

So we have 12 pages of avoidance of discussing the OP. One person has admitted they don't like the executive order, one more has admitted he 'doesn't give a fuck', but I don't know what that really means. If it was rescinded tomorrow, would he not give a fuck?

I suspect there are a number of posters who disagree with the executive order but are too afraid to say so.

Please, don't be afraid. Being in the majority does not make you wrong.

I disagree with the executive order

 

[seanie]

Ah yes. So you are ignoring that whole "hormones" thing, then. The fact is YOU and YOUR behavior are what exclude transwomen from the experience of being a woman. I honestly don't give a shit if you are a woman. You're still espousing shitty fucking views that don't correspond to the actual reality of cultural womanhood. It has nothing to do with you being a woman and everything to do with your generalizing your views to all women. You don't get to decide for "women" any more than I do. You get to decide for yourself. And that's it. As for me, I choose to decide for myself that I am going to respect people based on the lives they live, brains they have (and the hormones they soak in), behavior they engage in, and image they present.

It's right to respect people's lives they live in, behaviour they engage in, and image they present. But that doesn't change the reality of biological sex, and there are circumstances where biological sex matters. "Woman" is the correct biological term for female adult humans.