Discipline for children

[Jokodo]

The point you're missing is that the indiction against restraining a person against their will is not as universal as the indiction against inflicting unnecessary pain.

Not as "universal"? Says who? Not me. And not the 4th amendment to the Constitution. The Founding Fathers sure thought it was so common that they wanted to prevent it.

You are trying to argue that we must accept that there's a different standard for inflicting pain on children than on adults otherwise we're being hypocrites because we are in fact applying a different standard when it comes to restraining a person. That's not true because restraining isn't as universally bad as inflicting pain in the first place, even when only looking at interactions between adults.

We treat children as different, because children are not adults.

Without their consent, we:

discipline them
lock them up
restrain them
subject them to our rules and regulations
dress them according to our desires
feed them according to our desires
subject them to nationalistic, cultural, social, familial and/or religious brainwashing

I'm sure almost every single one of these is illegal if you force an adult to do it.

Really?
Let's look at them one by one:
"discipline them" - depending on what you mean by that. Either we regularly do that to adults too, or I'm actually advocating to not it with children either.
"lock them up" and "restrain them" - indeed we do that with adults when it's required for their own safety or the safety of those around them.
"subject them to our rules and regulations" - as far as I know, laws do apply to adults too; workplace rules mostly only apply to adults.
"dress them according to our desires" - uniforms?
"feed them according to our desires" - the menues in many a hospital or for that matter jail sure qualify?
"subject them to nationalistic, cultural, social, familial and/or religious brainwashing" - once again you'll have to clarify what you mean by it; depending on your answer, either we're doing it with adults all the time, or it's abusive when done to children.

 

[credoconsolans]

In which case it follows that non-spanking techniques thus can be no better.

By what absurd logic is this supposed to follow? If some children who regularly eat vegetables develop deficiencies in some micronutrients, does it follow that eating vegetables does no good?

Nira was talking about taking a method and making it abusive.

 

[Jokodo]

We've had the spanking discussion on these boards before. As I remember, there were those who were adamantly against even an occasional spanking of their child (it was abuse, violence, etc), but had no problem with, or even advocated, mutilating the penis of their infant boys via circumcision. Mostly out of cosmetic or cultural reasons. Go figure.

To my mind, the defence of spanking and of circumcision derive from the same kind of irrational, emotional motivation: "My parents did it to me, my parents were good people who loved me, therefore it must be good." The fact that some of the people who are rational about spanking are at the same time irrational when it comes to circumcision is no argument against the rational view on spanking.

 

[credoconsolans]

Not as "universal"? Says who? Not me. And not the 4th amendment to the Constitution. The Founding Fathers sure thought it was so common that they wanted to prevent it.

You are trying to argue that we must accept that there's a different standard for inflicting pain on children than on adults otherwise we're being hypocrites because we are in fact applying a different standard when it comes to restraining a person. That's not true because restraining isn't as universally bad as inflicting pain in the first place, even when only looking at interactions between adults.

We treat children as different, because children are not adults.

Without their consent, we:

discipline them
lock them up
restrain them
subject them to our rules and regulations
dress them according to our desires
feed them according to our desires
subject them to nationalistic, cultural, social, familial and/or religious brainwashing

I'm sure almost every single one of these is illegal if you force an adult to do it.

Really?
Let's look at them one by one:

"discipline them" - depending on what you mean by that. Either we regularly do that to adults too, or I'm actually advocating to not it with children either.

When was the last time you disciplined another adult?

"lock them up" and "restrain them" - indeed we do that with adults when it's required for their own safety or the safety of those around them.

You do that at bedtime for another adult? You hold another adult's arm so they can't leave your side at the mall?

"subject them to our rules and regulations" - as far as I know, laws do apply to adults too; workplace rules mostly only apply to adults.

"Our" meaning our own personal rules and regulations, not the state's and not the employers unless you see toddlers being employed somewhere.

"dress them according to our desires" - uniforms?

Free will. An adult doesn't have to wear a uniform.

"feed them according to our desires" - the menues in many a hospital or for that matter jail sure qualify?

"Our" meaning our personal desires. When was the last time you made an adult sit at your dinner table until they finished their vegetables?

"subject them to nationalistic, cultural, social, familial and/or religious brainwashing" - once again you'll have to clarify what you mean by it; depending on your answer, either we're doing it with adults all the time, or it's abusive when done to children.

Adults have the capacity for analytical thinking, children do not.

 

[Jokodo]

Not as "universal"? Says who? Not me. And not the 4th amendment to the Constitution. The Founding Fathers sure thought it was so common that they wanted to prevent it.

You are trying to argue that we must accept that there's a different standard for inflicting pain on children than on adults otherwise we're being hypocrites because we are in fact applying a different standard when it comes to restraining a person. That's not true because restraining isn't as universally bad as inflicting pain in the first place, even when only looking at interactions between adults.

We treat children as different, because children are not adults.

Without their consent, we:

discipline them
lock them up
restrain them
subject them to our rules and regulations
dress them according to our desires
feed them according to our desires
subject them to nationalistic, cultural, social, familial and/or religious brainwashing

I'm sure almost every single one of these is illegal if you force an adult to do it.

Really?
Let's look at them one by one:

"discipline them" - depending on what you mean by that. Either we regularly do that to adults too, or I'm actually advocating to not it with children either.

When was the last time you disciplined another adult?

"lock them up" and "restrain them" - indeed we do that with adults when it's required for their own safety or the safety of those around them.

You do that at bedtime for another adult? You hold another adult's arm so they can't leave your side at the mall?

"subject them to our rules and regulations" - as far as I know, laws do apply to adults too; workplace rules mostly only apply to adults.

"Our" meaning our own personal rules and regulations, not the state's and not the employers unless you see toddlers being employed somewhere.

"dress them according to our desires" - uniforms?

Free will. An adult doesn't have to wear a uniform.

"feed them according to our desires" - the menues in many a hospital or for that matter jail sure qualify?

"Our" meaning our personal desires. When was the last time you made an adult sit at your dinner table until they finished their vegetables?

"subject them to nationalistic, cultural, social, familial and/or religious brainwashing" - once again you'll have to clarify what you mean by it; depending on your answer, either we're doing it with adults all the time, or it's abusive when done to children.

Adults have the capacity for analytical thinking, children do not.

We're not going to get anywhere if your refuse to define your terms. I've asked to do so (because otherwise I can't answer your question) at two points - "discipline" and "brainwashing". Since I still don't know what qualifies as disciplining for you, how am I to give a meaningful answer to "When was the last time you disciplined another adult?"

 

[Jokodo]

Though I guess (pending a more explicit definition from your side) grading university students (handing out poor grades for poor work), and summoning those who were sloppy with their citations to my office hours to give them a lecture on the evils of plagiarism, counts as disciplining adults? It's part of my job description.

 

[credoconsolans]

Though I guess (pending a more explicit definition from your side) grading university students (handing out poor grades for poor work), and summoning those who were sloppy with their citations to my office hours to give them a lecture on the evils of plagiarism, counts as disciplining adults? It's part of my job description.

But do the college kids HAVE to go to college?

Nope.

They are adults and have free will.

Do children under a certain age HAVE to go to school? In the US, the answer is yes.

 

[Jokodo]

Though I guess (pending a more explicit definition from your side) grading university students (handing out poor grades for poor work), and summoning those who were sloppy with their citations to my office hours to give them a lecture on the evils of plagiarism, counts as disciplining adults? It's part of my job description.

But do the college kids HAVE to go to college?

Nope.

They are adults and have free will.

Do children under a certain age HAVE to go to school? In the US, the answer is yes.

You're changing the question. Your question was "When was the last time you disciplined another adult?"

But going back to some of your other points. You obviously comparing "things I can do to my kid as a parent" to "things I can do to any odd adult I meet in the street". That's not a useful comparison because I do have certain responsibilities towards and legal authority over my kid. What you have to compare is things I can do to my kid as a parent with things an adult can do to another adult over whom he/she has similar legal authority. When you do that, you'll find that yes, we can do to other adults (in appropriate contexts) all the other things you want to be comparable to spanking, but even in those contexts we are never allowed to wantonly inflict unnecessary pain.

"lock them up" and "restrain them" - indeed we do that with adults when it's required for their own safety or the safety of those around them.

You do that at bedtime for another adult? You hold another adult's arm so they can't leave your side at the mall?

I'm not acting as the legal warden of another adult. If I were, I might be allowed or in some circumstances required to do something very similar to them. I still wouldn't be allowed to inflict unnecessary pain.

"subject them to our rules and regulations" - as far as I know, laws do apply to adults too; workplace rules mostly only apply to adults.

"Our" meaning our own personal rules and regulations, not the state's and not the employers unless you see toddlers being employed somewhere.

Children are not subject to the personal rules and regulation of any odd adult they meet in the street either, they're subject to rules and regulations of their parents. Adults in positions of authority or who are the legal wardens of other adults do in fact impose their rules and regulations on other adults. And yet, they're not allowed to inflict unnecessary pain.

"feed them according to our desires" - the menues in many a hospital or for that matter jail sure qualify?

"Our" meaning our personal desires. When was the last time you made an adult sit at your dinner table until they finished their vegetables?

Never, but neither do I do that with my kid. At most I tell him this is what's for dinner tonight and if he doesn't want he'll go to bed hungry - and that's exactly what a hospital or jail menue with little to no choice and where the patients are unable to get food elsewhere if they disagree effectively does to adults.

 

[RavenSky]

But do the college kids HAVE to go to college?

Nope.

They are adults and have free will.

Do children under a certain age HAVE to go to school? In the US, the answer is yes.

You're changing the question. Your question was "When was the last time you disciplined another adult?"

But going back to some of your other points. You obviously comparing "things I can do to my kid as a parent" to "things I can do to any odd adult I meet in the street". That's not a useful comparison because I do have certain responsibilities towards and legal authority over my kid. What you have to compare is things I can do to my kid as a parent with things an adult can do to another adult over whom he/she has similar legal authority. When you do that, you'll find that yes, we can do to other adults (in appropriate contexts) all the other things you want to be comparable to spanking, but even in those contexts we are never allowed to wantonly inflict unnecessary pain.

"lock them up" and "restrain them" - indeed we do that with adults when it's required for their own safety or the safety of those around them.

You do that at bedtime for another adult? You hold another adult's arm so they can't leave your side at the mall?

I'm not acting as the legal warden of another adult. If I were, I might be allowed or in some circumstances required to do something very similar to them. I still wouldn't be allowed to inflict unnecessary pain.

"subject them to our rules and regulations" - as far as I know, laws do apply to adults too; workplace rules mostly only apply to adults.

"Our" meaning our own personal rules and regulations, not the state's and not the employers unless you see toddlers being employed somewhere.

Children are not subject to the personal rules and regulation of any odd adult they meet in the street either, they're subject to rules and regulations of their parents. Adults in positions of authority or who are the legal wardens of other adults do in fact impose their rules and regulations on other adults. And yet, they're not allowed to inflict unnecessary pain.

"feed them according to our desires" - the menues in many a hospital or for that matter jail sure qualify?

"Our" meaning our personal desires. When was the last time you made an adult sit at your dinner table until they finished their vegetables?

Never, but neither do I do that with my kid. At most I tell him this is what's for dinner tonight and if he doesn't want he'll go to bed hungry - and that's exactly what a hospital or jail menue with little to no choice and where the patients are unable to get food elsewhere if they disagree effectively does to adults.

I think you touched on a very key point here - these silly comparisons to what adults can do to children vs what adults can do to other adults completely falls apart when the relationships (authority and responsibility) between the parties is in the examples are equalized.

Many people ultimately end up as guardians for their alzheimer parents, for instance. This would be a situation wherein one adult will be doing for/to another adult almost exactly as a parent does for a child, yet hitting/spanking/swatting/slapping that elderly parent is still illegal.

In other words, the "children are treated differently from adults" argument fails.

P.S. I never defended male circumcision either, so I'm not sure who Beave thinks he is referring to.

 

[lpetrich]

I'd like to see some discussion of nonviolent discipline, especially nonviolent discipline that is successful. Would it be worth starting a thread on that?

There's been a lot of research that shows that societal violence has been going down in Europe and its colonies since the late Middle Ages -- until recently, those were the societies with the best documentation. So why not enable it to go down even further?

 

[Frikki]

I saw this meme today on Facebook:

and it got me to wondering do you think society has gone too far in the change in discipline?

Myself? I was spanked as a child, put in time out etc. It didn't hurt me. It taught me respect for right and wrong. You did wrong, you got a spank. Mum even had degrees of wooden spoon given on the severity of the offence!

What do you think?

If you think it works so well you should encourage your boss to slap you when you fuck up at work. If it worked so well when you were a kid, imagine how well it will work as an adult!

 

[Davka]

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

It comes from feeding your kids artificially-enhanced, prepared food filled with chemicals.

If guns were illegal, only criminals would have guns!

 

[Jokodo]

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

It comes from feeding your kids artificially-enhanced, prepared food filled with chemicals.

If guns were illegal, only criminals would have guns!

If you keep up the pace, you'll be leaving the "I'm emotional about this topic my brain stops functioning as soon as someone uses a wording I don't like" territory on the fast route to trolling land before the night is over.

- - - Updated - - -

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

It comes from feeding your kids artificially-enhanced, prepared food filled with chemicals.

If guns were illegal, only criminals would have guns!

If you keep up the pace, you'll be leaving the "I'm emotional about this topic my brain stops functioning as soon as someone uses a wording I don't like" territory on the fast route to trolling land before the night is over.

 

[credoconsolans]

But do the college kids HAVE to go to college?

Nope.

They are adults and have free will.

Do children under a certain age HAVE to go to school? In the US, the answer is yes.

You're changing the question. Your question was "When was the last time you disciplined another adult?"

But you're ignoring free will. They're letting you do that. You're not forcing them at all.

Unlike a child.

But going back to some of your other points. You obviously comparing "things I can do to my kid as a parent" to "things I can do to any odd adult I meet in the street". That's not a useful comparison because I do have certain responsibilities towards and legal authority over my kid. What you have to compare is things I can do to my kid as a parent with things an adult can do to another adult over whom he/she has similar legal authority. When you do that, you'll find that yes, we can do to other adults (in appropriate contexts) all the other things you want to be comparable to spanking, but even in those contexts we are never allowed to wantonly inflict unnecessary pain.

And why, may I ask do you have the authority?

Because the people in question are non compos mentis.

IOW, children are not like adults.

Adults can only have their health and legal affairs looked after by another adult legally, but as another adult, you still cannot discipline them.

"subject them to our rules and regulations" - as far as I know, laws do apply to adults too; workplace rules mostly only apply to adults.

"Our" meaning our own personal rules and regulations, not the state's and not the employers unless you see toddlers being employed somewhere.

Children are not subject to the personal rules and regulation of any odd adult they meet in the street either, they're subject to rules and regulations of their parents. Adults in positions of authority or who are the legal wardens of other adults do in fact impose their rules and regulations on other adults. And yet, they're not allowed to inflict unnecessary pain.

Up until recently, corporal punishment was allowed in schools, so strangers WERE allowed to physically discipline children. So that argument is incorrect.

Whether corporal punishment is "unnecessary" is the argument here.

"feed them according to our desires" - the menues in many a hospital or for that matter jail sure qualify?

"Our" meaning our personal desires. When was the last time you made an adult sit at your dinner table until they finished their vegetables?

Never, but neither do I do that with my kid. At most I tell him this is what's for dinner tonight and if he doesn't want he'll go to bed hungry - and that's exactly what a hospital or jail menue with little to no choice and where the patients are unable to get food elsewhere if they disagree effectively does to adults.

So you withhold food from your child if they won't eat what you set out...like a prison?

 

[credoconsolans]

I think you touched on a very key point here - these silly comparisons to what adults can do to children vs what adults can do to other adults completely falls apart when the relationships (authority and responsibility) between the parties is in the examples are equalized.

Except children are not equal to adults.

Many people ultimately end up as guardians for their alzheimer parents, for instance. This would be a situation wherein one adult will be doing for/to another adult almost exactly as a parent does for a child, yet hitting/spanking/swatting/slapping that elderly parent is still illegal.

Because they're adults not children.

 

[Jokodo]

You're changing the question. Your question was "When was the last time you disciplined another adult?"

But you're ignoring free will. They're letting you do that. You're not forcing them at all.

Unlike a child.

But going back to some of your other points. You obviously comparing "things I can do to my kid as a parent" to "things I can do to any odd adult I meet in the street". That's not a useful comparison because I do have certain responsibilities towards and legal authority over my kid. What you have to compare is things I can do to my kid as a parent with things an adult can do to another adult over whom he/she has similar legal authority. When you do that, you'll find that yes, we can do to other adults (in appropriate contexts) all the other things you want to be comparable to spanking, but even in those contexts we are never allowed to wantonly inflict unnecessary pain.

And why, may I ask do you have the authority?

Because the people in question are non compos mentis.

IOW, children are not like adults.

Adults can only have their health and legal affairs looked after by another adult legally, but as another adult, you still cannot discipline them.

"subject them to our rules and regulations" - as far as I know, laws do apply to adults too; workplace rules mostly only apply to adults.

"Our" meaning our own personal rules and regulations, not the state's and not the employers unless you see toddlers being employed somewhere.

Children are not subject to the personal rules and regulation of any odd adult they meet in the street either, they're subject to rules and regulations of their parents. Adults in positions of authority or who are the legal wardens of other adults do in fact impose their rules and regulations on other adults. And yet, they're not allowed to inflict unnecessary pain.

Up until recently, corporal punishment was allowed in schools, so strangers WERE allowed to physically discipline children. So that argument is incorrect.

Whether corporal punishment is "unnecessary" is the argument here.

"feed them according to our desires" - the menues in many a hospital or for that matter jail sure qualify?

"Our" meaning our personal desires. When was the last time you made an adult sit at your dinner table until they finished their vegetables?

Never, but neither do I do that with my kid. At most I tell him this is what's for dinner tonight and if he doesn't want he'll go to bed hungry - and that's exactly what a hospital or jail menue with little to no choice and where the patients are unable to get food elsewhere if they disagree effectively does to adults.

So you withhold food from your child if they won't eat what you set out...like a prison?

It's hardly ever necessary, who always eats a lot. But more to the point: Prisons are occupied by adults. By saying "like a prison" to some treatment you earlier claimed was reserved only for children, you shoot down your own argument. Because in that case this treatment is already not parallel to spanking: if a prison administration spanks their inmates "as a form of disciplines" or otherwise, it's considered torture in civilised countries.

 

[Jokodo]

Except children are not equal to adults.

Many people ultimately end up as guardians for their alzheimer parents, for instance. This would be a situation wherein one adult will be doing for/to another adult almost exactly as a parent does for a child, yet hitting/spanking/swatting/slapping that elderly parent is still illegal.

Because they're adults not children.

You at least have to recognise that your argument of "there's all these other things that are exactly parallel to spanking in that we can do them to children but not adults" falls apart at this point though. Because all those other things can be done to adults under exceptional circumstances while spanking still can't.

 

[beero1000]

I wonder if the debate would be more or less heated if I made a thread called "Discipline for dogs".

Is spanking a valid conditioning tool for any misbehaving entity with a guardian because of an inability to consent or be reasoned with? Are dog owners encouraged to use striking as part of training? Could the legal guardian of a mentally disabled adult be justified in spanking them?

 

[credoconsolans]

But you're ignoring free will. They're letting you do that. You're not forcing them at all.

Unlike a child.

But going back to some of your other points. You obviously comparing "things I can do to my kid as a parent" to "things I can do to any odd adult I meet in the street". That's not a useful comparison because I do have certain responsibilities towards and legal authority over my kid. What you have to compare is things I can do to my kid as a parent with things an adult can do to another adult over whom he/she has similar legal authority. When you do that, you'll find that yes, we can do to other adults (in appropriate contexts) all the other things you want to be comparable to spanking, but even in those contexts we are never allowed to wantonly inflict unnecessary pain.

And why, may I ask do you have the authority?

Because the people in question are non compos mentis.

IOW, children are not like adults.

Adults can only have their health and legal affairs looked after by another adult legally, but as another adult, you still cannot discipline them.

"subject them to our rules and regulations" - as far as I know, laws do apply to adults too; workplace rules mostly only apply to adults.

"Our" meaning our own personal rules and regulations, not the state's and not the employers unless you see toddlers being employed somewhere.

Children are not subject to the personal rules and regulation of any odd adult they meet in the street either, they're subject to rules and regulations of their parents. Adults in positions of authority or who are the legal wardens of other adults do in fact impose their rules and regulations on other adults. And yet, they're not allowed to inflict unnecessary pain.

Up until recently, corporal punishment was allowed in schools, so strangers WERE allowed to physically discipline children. So that argument is incorrect.

Whether corporal punishment is "unnecessary" is the argument here.

"feed them according to our desires" - the menues in many a hospital or for that matter jail sure qualify?

"Our" meaning our personal desires. When was the last time you made an adult sit at your dinner table until they finished their vegetables?

Never, but neither do I do that with my kid. At most I tell him this is what's for dinner tonight and if he doesn't want he'll go to bed hungry - and that's exactly what a hospital or jail menue with little to no choice and where the patients are unable to get food elsewhere if they disagree effectively does to adults.

So you withhold food from your child if they won't eat what you set out...like a prison?

It's hardly ever necessary, who always eats a lot. But more to the point: Prisons are occupied by adults. By saying "like a prison" to some treatment you earlier claimed was reserved only for children, you shoot down your own argument. Because in that case this treatment is already not parallel to spanking: if a prison administration spanks their inmates "as a form of disciplines" or otherwise, it's considered torture in civilised countries.

Not at all, the posters keep avoiding free will.

Children don't have it.

- - - Updated - - -

I wonder if the debate would be more or less heated if I made a thread called "Discipline for dogs".

Is spanking a valid conditioning tool for any misbehaving entity with a guardian because of an inability to consent or be reasoned with? Are dog owners encouraged to use striking as part of training? Could the legal guardian of a mentally disabled adult be justified in spanking them?

Are dogs human?

- - - Updated - - -

Except children are not equal to adults.



Because they're adults not children.

You at least have to recognise that your argument of "there's all these other things that are exactly parallel to spanking in that we can do them to children but not adults" falls apart at this point though. Because all those other things can be done to adults under exceptional circumstances while spanking still can't.

How does it? I don't see that it does.

 

[rousseau]

Google search "Is spanking effective":

Why spanking isn't effective, Time Magazine
Why spanking should be discouraged, Cornell University
Research on spanking: It's bad for all kids, Psychology Today
Studies show spanking can change brain chemistry, Washington Post
The first real time study of parents spanking their kids, Time Magazine


Spanking the gray matter out of our kids, CNN
Spanking children slows cognitive development and increases risk of criminal behavior, expert says, ScienceDaily
Why does everyone pretend there is a spanking debate?, Huffington Post



Is anyone convinced yet?

Nope.

That would indicate that humans have for at least throughout human history have been slow cognitively.

We were SO slow that we were cognitively unable to develop science and math and physics and philosophy and engineering...oh, wait...

- - - Updated - - -

Well said Davka.

I've babysat, held the hands of tantrumming children, tried to reason with them and got smacked in the face, with long bleeding scratches for my trouble. And no, this child was perfectly normal, and was never spanked in her life.

All kids are different and not all of them are sweet as pie. Children by nature are self-absorbed and narcissistic. The world should revolve around them and they get angry and frustrated when it doesn't and this shows up in their behavior.

Even if a kid pushes until they are pushed back:

Why is hitting the best option in response?

I never said it was the best option. I have said all along that it should BE an option.

Well, if it's not the best option, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it's both ineffective and psychologically damaging, and no evidence to suggest that it's effective, why does this thread still exist?