Idiot dragged out of bar by her hair for not wearing mask

[jab]

I think dragging out by the hair is way too harsh when the two bouncers could have carried her out to the street and dropped her there. However, comparing this situation to cops beating/shooting people is also moronic.

My point in making that comparison is the idea that overreaction and the habit of overreacting and making excuses for overeacting will not result, in my opinion, in a steady unchanging line of how far is “too far.” It will result in escalation.

To me it is a similar thought process that I see when criminals excuse their own behavior (harming people they think deserve it) based on things like prison as retribution rather than rehabilitation (harming people because we think they deserve it). The criminal is not right to do this, but they do indeed look a this to justify their worse behavior.

This is a situation where someone at the very least forced someone else to remove them from a space. We can question all we want as to the bouncer's choice of how they accomplished it, but that the accomplishment was better than having it not accomplished and the timeliness was also quite necessary.

As I have pointed out to others, I will not pity her her experiences. She earned what happened by making an unethical situation exist and failing to resolve it herself by just putting on a damn mask.

The point of contention here is whether the bouncer ought also get in trouble for "taking things too far". Quite possibly he ought. But this has nothing to do with her. She is merely the vehicle by which the bouncer's alleged bad behavior was enabled by, from my perspective.

She can go baww her butthurt over being hair dragged along with every other concern troll who want to smear businesses defending themselves nonlethally against lethal threats to their patrons.

If she had had more than her hair pulled, I would quite possibly care quite a lot more. But as it stands, this is purely transient damage arising from personal intractability.

the bouncer was a she, I think, not a he.

 

[jab]

I'm not.

I'm pointing out that sometimes violently belligerent drunks are also white female "Karens".

Tom

Tom, I have been impressed by your posts.

Would you, you personally, drag a woman across the floor by her hair, for any reason? I would not.

Now, let's say this woman was so out of hand, so belligerent, so violent, that physical force became necessary to hold and contain her. I would imagine that there were enough men in this place to muster sufficient force to restrain this woman until police arrived.

In other words, as I have said, and which is true: there could not have been any justification for dragging her out by her hair.

Any attempt to justify it is a rationalization. There is NO justification for such brutality. None. None at all.

so gender is the issue, you gallant you; you would be okay with a man being dragged out of a bar by his hair, I take it.

 

[jab]

The bouncer was also a woman, I think. Maybe that's something she's experienced and figured it works, regardless of the ethics. As noted above, bouncers aren't exactly known for their kind disposition and sense of humor. Doesn't really excuse it, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the trouble maker either.

I, personally, wouldn't drag anyone by the hair, but I have 30+ years of martial arts experience, including a lot of subdual techniques.

And comparing this to police killing unarmed people who ARE complying is really dumbass whataboutism.

First, I don't care that the bouncer was a woman. She should be fired.

Now, who has compared this incident to police killings of innocent people? Please reply and answer the question.

I have to go to work in fifteen minutes. Will return to the discussion later...

Rhea made that comparison.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Oh, but it is about the mask.

Nope, the mask is a red herring. It's all about you lot cheering on the beat down of a white Karen type (or Trump supporter or plague rat or whatever) because that's the way you roll. It wouldn't matter if the woman had been beat down for not flushing the toilet or what ever perverse justification you can come up with. Just own it ffs.

Nope, you're just mad people call you racist for supporting the murders of unarmed black people, so you call democrats racist out of pure revenge.

 

[Gospel]

Yeah, by default I side with the customer based on the information provided. There is nothing in the article as presented that supports the behavior of the security guard. I'm inclined to believe if more surveillance footage is made available it would reveal she was asked multiple times to leave, refused, and intentionally took for the ground when security attempted to remove her. The woman had arms and legs to grab and there were two security guards present so dragging her by the hair was not necessary.

They could have carried her out like this (edit) with her male friend's help.
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVZwoLZgrRs&ab_channel=Movieclips[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Jarhyn]

Oh, but it is about the mask.

Nope, the mask is a red herring. It's all about you lot cheering on the beat down of a white Karen type (or Trump supporter or plague rat or whatever) because that's the way you roll. It wouldn't matter if the woman had been beat down for not flushing the toilet or what ever perverse justification you can come up with. Just own it ffs.

Nope, you're just mad people call you racist for supporting the murders of unarmed black people, so you call democrats racist out of pure revenge.

I mean, I wasn't taking pity on Gorilla Glue Girl either, at least not until she put all her GoFundMe money towards charity.

At any rate, I don't get to decide how I feel seeing this girl get hair-dragged. I can be disappointed in the lack of pity, but I won't be because I see no reason. I DO see reason to investigate a bouncer for being "too rough". I'm sure we eventually WILL see that trial.

As long as the "victim" was not permanently damaged, as long as nothing reasonably capable of being seen as sexually violative happened, I'm not going to care more. She contributed to the continuing trauma of society, of every person in that bar, with her cavalier attitude regarding their health.

There are a number of scenarios which could be described by these events I would have cheered about. Some I would have jeered. I am correct to judge her a fool and I am correct to reserve a right to judgement on the bouncer, pending the stories of other onlookers.

Those haven't materialized so I am left with a non-discrete, complicated feeling about the matter. I can see where each point on the derivative line lives, though, and if described, the characterization of the function is "mostly negative" because many points put hair-dragging as the least damaging path from where her behavior placed us, and most points require a violent resolution of some kind.

 

[KeepTalking]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

 

[WAB]

True. And, as I said, excuses will be made for anything. People are getting wound up to the point where excessive use of violence is not only tolerated, but applauded. Soon it will be encouraged. Similar things happened in Russia about a century ago. A wound up far left can be, can potentially be, as dangerous as a wound up far right. It has happened already.

We could be looking at an actual bloodbath, an armed conflict between the far left and the far right, here in Rome...er...I mean America. Nutballs on both sides, armed to the teeth and angry.

Now is the time for rational people to start running their mouths.

To me violence or the threat of it is what keeps people from crossing over certain lines: we use reasoned discussion rather than fighting because fighting sucks for almost everyone.

The issue comes when someone abandons the forms of discourse which are to be accepted by someone who rejects belief and authority, when someone relies on rhetoric, confusion, ignorance, and other things that are not reasoned or reasonable. I will happily point to violence existing on the far side of that boundary because there is nothing useful on it other than to use the ignorant or the ill-equipped in the short term as batteries and capacitors of violence got their short term gain and long term loss in pure and externally detrimental service of self and using people is fucking awful.

Oh, but it is about the mask.

Nope, the mask is a red herring. It's all about you lot cheering on the beat down of a white Karen type (or Trump supporter or plague rat or whatever) because that's the way you roll. It wouldn't matter if the woman had been beat down for not flushing the toilet or what ever perverse justification you can come up with. Just own it ffs.

I agree completely. But they won't own it because they're in an echo chamber, and revelling in it. But this situation will not last. Perhaps it will last at this site, but it will not last out in the world. Rational people will only take it for so long, then react. Not with violence, but with impassioned speech. With the truth they are currently reluctant to say for fear of having their reputations destroyed by hysterical radicals.

ETA:

I don't know why Jarhyn's irrelevant post got quoted. I was responding to Tswizzle's post...

 

[WAB]

True. And, as I said, excuses will be made for anything. People are getting wound up to the point where excessive use of violence is not only tolerated, but applauded. Soon it will be encouraged. Similar things happened in Russia about a century ago. A wound up far left can be, can potentially be, as dangerous as a wound up far right. It has happened already.

We could be looking at an actual bloodbath, an armed conflict between the far left and the far right, here in Rome...er...I mean America. Nutballs on both sides, armed to the teeth and angry.

Now is the time for rational people to start running their mouths.

To me violence or the threat of it is what keeps people from crossing over certain lines: we use reasoned discussion rather than fighting because fighting sucks for almost everyone.

The issue comes when someone abandons the forms of discourse which are to be accepted by someone who rejects belief and authority, when someone relies on rhetoric, confusion, ignorance, and other things that are not reasoned or reasonable. I will happily point to violence existing on the far side of that boundary because there is nothing useful on it other than to use the ignorant or the ill-equipped in the short term as batteries and capacitors of violence got their short term gain and long term loss in pure and externally detrimental service of self and using people is fucking awful.

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

Fuck bouncers. None of you would be defending this asshat of a bouncer if the context were different. Own it or look stupid, your choice.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Oh, but it is about the mask.

Nope, the mask is a red herring. It's all about you lot cheering on the beat down of a white Karen type (or Trump supporter or plague rat or whatever) because that's the way you roll. It wouldn't matter if the woman had been beat down for not flushing the toilet or what ever perverse justification you can come up with. Just own it ffs.

I agree completely. But they won't own it because they're in an echo chamber, and revelling in it. But this situation will not last. Perhaps it will last at this site, but it will not last out in the world. Rational people will only take it for so long, then react. Not with violence, but with impassioned speech. With the truth they are currently reluctant to say for fear of having their reputations destroyed by hysterical radicals.

ETA:

I don't know why Jarhyn's irrelevant post got quoted. I was responding to Tswizzle's post...

"Radical"? Come on, I'm used to that one. Gimme another.

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

Fuck bouncers. None of you would be defending this asshat of a bouncer if the context were different. Own it or look stupid, your choice.

"Submit to my simplistic view without acceptance of nuance or have me say you look stupid".

I would rather "look" stupid do something that is, actually, stupid.

I'm not going to take pity on stupid people being stupid.

I am not going to forgive a bouncer who did something stupid, assuming what they did was, in fact, stupid.

This is what I own: the intelligence to know that there are at most 1 persons in 'the right' here, and that person is certainly not the bar patron. That there at least 1 persons who are wrong, and that number absolutely includes the bar patron.

There is no getting away from these facts. These facts are what the universe owns. I am merely pointing them out. You are the calling it "looking stupid" for doing so.

This is a game with no winners.

You keep wanting there to be a winner, but there isn't. There are just losers. Most of all, the biggest losers are the people who want to "win" something over this in political debate.

All there is here is tragedy, first the tragic stupidity of the plague rat, then the tragic need for a response, and then the tragedy over the response.

The correct, ethical path of this situation was lost the second Karen was told by someone they trusted that masks weren't necessary for social activities.

That unethical ignorance then became a decision to be an asshole in a bar, that unethical decision became a decision to resolve it through violence, that violence is then cried bloody murder over.

 

[WAB]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

Fuck bouncers. None of you would be defending this asshat of a bouncer if the context were different. Own it or look stupid, your choice.

"Submit to my simplistic view without acceptance of nuance or have me say you look stupid".

I would rather "look" stupid do something that is, actually, stupid.

I'm not going to take pity on stupid people being stupid.

I am not going to forgive a bouncer who did something stupid, assuming what they did was, in fact, stupid.

This is what I own: the intelligence to know that there are at most 1 persons in 'the right' here, and that person is certainly not the bar patron. That there at least 1 persons who are wrong, and that number absolutely includes the bar patron.

There is no getting away from these facts. These facts are what the universe owns. I am merely pointing them out. You are the calling it "looking stupid" for doing so.

This is a game with no winners.

You keep wanting there to be a winner, but there isn't. There are just losers. Most of all, the biggest losers are the people who want to "win" something over this in political debate.

All there is here is tragedy, first the tragic stupidity of the plague rat, then the tragic need for a response, and then the tragedy over the response.

The correct, ethical path of this situation was lost the second Karen was told by someone they trusted that masks weren't necessary for social activities.

That unethical ignorance then became a decision to be an asshole in a bar, that unethical decision became a decision to resolve it through violence, that violence is then cried bloody murder over.

You are right about some things, and wrong about other things.

You are right that the situation has no winners. I am not trying to win anything. My posting record, my very candid personality, and my constant self- deprecation ought to clue you in that I am not a competitive person...

But none of this is about me, at least not the situation being commented on.

This discussion is about me, I suppose, and about whoever participates in it. I joined the discussion because I became indignant, and very baffled that so many people would condone, or at least not condemn, an act of unnecessary violence.

You can talk all day about who started the whole mess, okay, the anti masker started it. She was in the wrong. Agreed! Who the hell will say she was not in the wrong? Maybe some fellow anti maskers, maybe TSwizzle? I don't know.

But there are other facts. First, the whole situation could have been diffused had the police been summoned. Short of that, there must have been rational people present who might have talked to the woman calmly and deescalated the situation. Short of that, a person can be forcibly removed from an establishment in the customary ways! Do not tell me that dragging a person by the hair is a common thing. It is not. I've been in bars, I've seen people tossed out. This kind of brutal shit might happen rarely, but it cannot be excusable, it cannot be justified, unless one is in a political discussion and one is compelled to twist the truth and rationalize.

Jarhyn, you and others have said things to the effect that the threat of violence is expedient in getting someone to stop talking, or to calm down, or some such. This only applies to a few contexts: one can do it if one is a police officer, sheriff, or some such lawful authority; a parent can do it justifiably with a particularly ungovernable child. BUT, one adult should never use a threat of violence on another adult or child in normal contexts.

If you were to threaten me with violence because you didn't care for what I was saying, or because I had gotten too loud, or you perceived that I was out of control, I would tell you to go and fuck yourself, and your threats would never silence me. Trust me on this one.

 

[ronburgundy]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

Fuck bouncers. None of you would be defending this asshat of a bouncer if the context were different. Own it or look stupid, your choice.

The only one looking stupid is the person saying that context (aka the actions of the patron) don't matter, so we should all have the same opinion of the bouncer no matter what the patron did.

 

[KeepTalking]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

Fuck bouncers.

Don't worry, they hear that all the time

None of you would be defending this asshat of a bouncer if the context were different. Own it or look stupid, your choice.

I'm just one guy, not some collective, and I'm not sure in what context you think I would change my tune, so throw me one, and I will let you know. I will own my own statements, however, so feel free to take me to task for anything I actually say.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

Better be careful or you'll get accused of wanting cities to burn down!

 

[KeepTalking]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

Better be careful or you'll get accused of wanting cities to burn down!

Well, that kind of depends on the city in question...

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

Better be careful or you'll get accused of wanting cities to burn down!

Well, that kind of depends on the city in question...

You must be a BLM supporter.

 

[J842P]

True colors are being shown in this thread.

Yes. I am, indeed, after all, a communist.

Nah man. You are just someone whose shtick is nowhere near as clever as you think it is.

 

[J842P]

True colors are being shown in this thread.

So is irony, so thanks for your contribution.

I do not understand what you are saying. I don't see any irony here. I see the fairly predicable partisanship. I could have guessed the responses in this thread without having to have read it.

 

[J842P]

Oh, but it is about the mask.

Nope, the mask is a red herring. It's all about you lot cheering on the beat down of a white Karen type (or Trump supporter or plague rat or whatever) because that's the way you roll. It wouldn't matter if the woman had been beat down for not flushing the toilet or what ever perverse justification you can come up with. Just own it ffs.

Nope, you're just mad people call you racist for supporting the murders of unarmed black people, so you call democrats racist out of pure revenge.

So, now you are down to just making shit up, I see.

Show the receipts, where has TSwizzle ever supported the "murders of unarmed black people"?