Idiot dragged out of bar by her hair for not wearing mask

[jab]

You're right,

Yeah, I know I am. Jog on.

far, far right, perhaps?

 

[jab]

Good points of discussion, let me address them individually.


When I see the video, I see someone getting dragged, not by the collar, but by the hair. Her arms raised in defense to take some of the weight off her hair. That is unnecessariy brutal. It’s just not needed.

We have a snippet of an event that we know with certainty was preceded by prior events, one of which was the person not wearing a mask when required. Much of the debate is between people who all accept that she refused to wear a mask and refused to leave. Those who think failing to mask when possible is on par with threatening other patrons with serious bodily harm, think that this is not a surprising or unjust outcome, in the highly likely even that such a person would also resist being calmly escorted out.

I’m in the club thinking non masking is an act of aggression. Just so you know.
I am ALSO in the camp that making that person scream is a discharge of that weapon.
I accept that she refused to wear the mask and refused to leave.
I agree that she needed to be made to leave.

Not a single poster has implied that it would okay for security to have just walked up to an unmasked patron and done this without prior escalation by the patron. That is a highly improbable scenario, so no one who thinks this is likely acceptable is operating under that scenario.

Including me.

Another and separate debate is what actually is likely to have happened. The question is what is more probable: 1) a person refusing a basic civil act like wearing a mask was asked to leave, refused, was escorted and fought back, leading to them going defensively to the ground as they were pulled by the collar (Which is highly similar to events that happen in bars all the time)

She was not “pulled by the collar,” in that video, her hair was clearly pulled in the direction of her motion, which is not a natural direction for the movement of hair when a person is dragged by the collar. One’s hair does not precede one.
And THAT is the basis of my disagreement with you.

I have been in my share of bar fight situations. And dragging a patron actoss the floor by the hair is not normal, and not called for. It’s wrong. It is unnecessarilly brutal. AND it makes the unmasked patron scream, and everyone around them scream, creating a far worse virus situation.

So if the justifcation is, “but the virus!” Then this is the WORST thing to do. As well as being brutal.

[...] and where the bouncers, bartenters and servers likely deal with dogmatic an indignant mask non-compliance on an almost constant basis. That would mean either 1) this is an hourly occurrence at this bar, 2) the bouncer just had a sudden mental breakdown with this one particular patron for no reason, or 3) this patron was particularly defiant and resistant to masking or leaving.

This is the, “but he had a knife, so I was justified in shooting him dead” defense, which I also don’t agree with.
The are a non-zero number of options between no action and dragging by hair. You don’t seem to address any of these, you seem to keep saying, Either nothing - or the hair. I disagree with you that a bouncer is so constrained.

#3 is by far the objectively most probable event, and made moreso by the fact that a second security guard was right there assisting which implies prior escalation and not a rogue security guard just grabbing a woman unprovoked. Note the bar security don't typically do everything with a partner unlike cops. So, the other guard was likely called to assist or came over during the struggle that preceded the video.

Two guards available means a patron needs hair dragging even less.

This isn't a court of law, there is no and should be no presumption of innocence,

I do not presume her innocent. I suspect she is a dickhead anti-masker with a conservative-sized persecution complex. Who could be dealt with in 50 other ways than to be dragged across the floor screaming, spraying her virus-laden bile everywhere in the bar.

and in fact both explanations presume criminal guilt and aggression just by different people. So, any position requires assumptions that goes beyond the evidence. This is a discussion about what is most probable given how these situations normally go down. There is z ero consequence of what we conclude, do there is no reason to be agnostic about it, especially given that the a priori probability of one explanation is so much higher.

Already aware of all that.

I am arguing that the video shows behavior that was not only unnecessarily brutal, but was detrimental the supposed purpose of the action - “mitigating virus risk,” AND detrimental to the idea that a society harms itself when it uses unnecessary brutality.

Um, the un-masked person was not killed, was not seriously injured, was not hospitalized--the comparison to shooting someone dead is a false analogy. Perhaps the hair pulling bouncer knows more about how to conduct her job with minimum injury than you do.
P. S. I have not been inside an eating or drinking establishment since mid-March 2020, even when such things were permitted in my jurisdiction, because of the confusing and dangerous rules about not having to wear masks when you are doing some things there, but not others. I pity the people who have to work in such establishments whose own lives/ wellbeing are threatened by the overall situation and by the "i won't wear a mask, not me" types they have to deal with.

 

[WAB]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

 

[Terrell]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

 

[J842P]

True colors are being shown in this thread.

 

[WAB]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Did you not read what I wrote?

Certainly the establishment had the right to remove her, and they could have called the police if the woman had gotten that far out of control.

There was zero justification, however, for pulling her out by her hair!

How could such a simple fucking concept not be understood?

What in the holy fuck are you people smoking?????

 

[GenesisNemesis]

True colors are being shown in this thread.

Yes. I am, indeed, after all, a communist.

 

[Harry Bosch]

True colors are being shown in this thread.

Yes. I am, indeed, after all, a communist.

I'm not sure if the above is in jest or not. Obviously, I'm against authoritarian government actions. And yes, I agree with WAB above that too much force was used on this woman. But at the same time, COVID is deadly. If I get it, I'll probably be fine. But I live with older family members in poor health who could easily die. And our economy is toast if we don't get a handle (get herd immunity) on the virus. Finished. So, I do take it very seriously when people won't follow simple rules designed to protect others. If we don't get to herd immunity, it will be mostly due to assholes who value their personal rights over wanting to protect others.

 

[Rhea]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Show me how you leap from “Should not be dragged out by hair” to “Should be expected to let her stay.”

How can you make such a false dichotomy with a straight face?
There are hundreds of choices in how to make someone leave that do not include dragging them by the hair, especially when a second bouncer is right there.


Since you’re making a straw man out of my position, I’ll state it again just as clearly:

• Yes she was a danger based on her non-compliance to plague rules
• Yes she needed to be removed
• No, that does not require dragging her by the hair.

How do I know that? Because thousands of people are removed from bars every day for doing dangerous things, and hair-dragging is uncommon.


This was an overreaction that clearly showed a bouncer wanting to exert power more than she wanted to remove a patron to protect against virus.

The whole screaming shouting event was the worst possible escalation of virus spreading. It was STUPID as well as unnecessarily brutal. One can use force without being a brute. One can remove someone without making the thing from which you are ostensibly protecting far worse.

There are hundreds of alternatives to dragging a bar patron by the hair.
It was a brutish act that escalated for power. It was achingly stupid.

I went back to the video and screen-grabbed frames. The bouncer absolutely had her hand around the patron’s hair and the patron was clearly fighting that hand.

I will now sit back and ponder what makes some of you decide to defend this act as a dichotomy against no action at all, instead of talking about what the bouncer could have done differently. The conversation surprises me somewhat, and I’m curious to ponder what frame of mind made you all surprise me.

 

[cycomiko]

I was doorman/bouncer in college in Austin (anyone remember the BackRoom on Riverside or the Ritz on 6th St?). There were a handful of times that we had to carry people out but never had to drag out by the hair. What would actually happen quite often is you'd start to physically remove someone, they would go dead weight and we'd just let them fall and lay there on the dirty bar floor. They would be so embarrassed at that point that they would simply leave and never come back. That was like 20 years ago so the "rights" being infringed upon at the time was that the patrons were no longer allowed to smoke indoors in Austin.

I think dragging out by the hair is way too harsh when the two bouncers could have carried her out to the street and dropped her there. However, comparing this situation to cops beating/shooting people is also moronic.

I'm sure someone has pointed out that there's only one side to this story and the video in the OP doesn't show what happened to start it all off. [sarcasm] Has Derec found this woman's past convictions as proof that she's a thug and had it coming? [/sarcasm] I kid.

 

[ZiprHead]

Seemed pretty excessive to me.

Then again, bar bouncers aren't exactly known for their kind and gentle nature.

 

[Rhea]

I think dragging out by the hair is way too harsh when the two bouncers could have carried her out to the street and dropped her there. However, comparing this situation to cops beating/shooting people is also moronic.

My point in making that comparison is the idea that overreaction and the habit of overreacting and making excuses for overeacting will not result, in my opinion, in a steady unchanging line of how far is “too far.” It will result in escalation.

To me it is a similar thought process that I see when criminals excuse their own behavior (harming people they think deserve it) based on things like prison as retribution rather than rehabilitation (harming people because we think they deserve it). The criminal is not right to do this, but they do indeed look a this to justify their worse behavior.

 

[cycomiko]

I think dragging out by the hair is way too harsh when the two bouncers could have carried her out to the street and dropped her there. However, comparing this situation to cops beating/shooting people is also moronic.

My point in making that comparison is the idea that overreaction and the habit of overreacting and making excuses for overeacting will not result, in my opinion, in a steady unchanging line of how far is “too far.” It will result in escalation.

To me it is a similar thought process that I see when criminals excuse their own behavior (harming people they think deserve it) based on things like prison as retribution rather than rehabilitation (harming people because we think they deserve it). The criminal is not right to do this, but they do indeed look a this to justify their worse behavior.

Fair enough. I can take that point and I totally agree. Everything these days gets cranked up 11 almost immediately and things need to calm down.

This situation with the bouncer shouldn't have happened. I just don't think it's at the same level as trained public servants beating/shooting people. Just like the bouncer shouldn't have overreacted by dragging the woman by the hair, we shouldn't overreact to their overreaction. I think that sentence made sense. I used to know several people that would constantly talk shit and run their mouths but didn't really deserve to be beat down for it. However, when they finally did push someone too far and get knocked out the reaction was always "yeah they had it coming". It was wrong but understandable.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think dragging out by the hair is way too harsh when the two bouncers could have carried her out to the street and dropped her there. However, comparing this situation to cops beating/shooting people is also moronic.

My point in making that comparison is the idea that overreaction and the habit of overreacting and making excuses for overeacting will not result, in my opinion, in a steady unchanging line of how far is “too far.” It will result in escalation.

To me it is a similar thought process that I see when criminals excuse their own behavior (harming people they think deserve it) based on things like prison as retribution rather than rehabilitation (harming people because we think they deserve it). The criminal is not right to do this, but they do indeed look a this to justify their worse behavior.

This is a situation where someone at the very least forced someone else to remove them from a space. We can question all we want as to the bouncer's choice of how they accomplished it, but that the accomplishment was better than having it not accomplished and the timeliness was also quite necessary.

As I have pointed out to others, I will not pity her her experiences. She earned what happened by making an unethical situation exist and failing to resolve it herself by just putting on a damn mask.

The point of contention here is whether the bouncer ought also get in trouble for "taking things too far". Quite possibly he ought. But this has nothing to do with her. She is merely the vehicle by which the bouncer's alleged bad behavior was enabled by, from my perspective.

She can go baww her butthurt over being hair dragged along with every other concern troll who want to smear businesses defending themselves nonlethally against lethal threats to their patrons.

If she had had more than her hair pulled, I would quite possibly care quite a lot more. But as it stands, this is purely transient damage arising from personal intractability.

 

[TSwizzle]

I used to know several people that would constantly talk shit and run their mouths but didn't really deserve to be beat down for it. However, when they finally did push someone too far and get knocked out the reaction was always "yeah they had it coming". It was wrong but understandable.

Yeah, you here that a lot. Sometimes applied to the victims of wife beaters.

 

[TSwizzle]

I'm not sure if the above is in jest or not. Obviously, I'm against authoritarian government actions.

Obvious to who ?

{snip} But at the same time, COVID is deadly. If I get it, I'll probably be fine. But I live with older family members in poor health who could easily die.

Don't go to bars, stay home fella.

 

[cycomiko]

I used to know several people that would constantly talk shit and run their mouths but didn't really deserve to be beat down for it. However, when they finally did push someone too far and get knocked out the reaction was always "yeah they had it coming". It was wrong but understandable.

Yeah, you here that a lot. Sometimes applied to the victims of wife beaters.

Are you saying that the wife beater says that the wife had it coming? Or do you mean that the abuser had it coming after the wife finally kills him after being abused?

 

[TSwizzle]

I used to know several people that would constantly talk shit and run their mouths but didn't really deserve to be beat down for it. However, when they finally did push someone too far and get knocked out the reaction was always "yeah they had it coming". It was wrong but understandable.

Yeah, you here that a lot. Sometimes applied to the victims of wife beaters.

Are you saying that the wife beater says that the wife had it coming? Or do you mean that the abuser had it coming after the wife finally kills him after being abused?

Someone is always able to come up with an excuse. This thread is full of such excuses.

 

[TomC]

This is a situation where someone at the very least forced someone else to remove them from a space. We can question all we want as to the bouncer's choice of how they accomplished it, but that the accomplishment was better than having it not accomplished and the timeliness was also quite necessary.

To me this is the point. I see the mask part as a bit of red herring.

She got booted out for being belligerent. I'm confident that she forced the bouncers to respond in kind. I've got no sympathy for her. I'm sure the big problem was drunkenness, coupled with a sense of entitlement.
There's a bar on the outskirts of town with a reputation for rowdiness. Part of what keeps some semblance of order is that the bouncers have a demonstrated willingness to escalate quickly to gut punches.

Tom

 

[WAB]

True colors are being shown in this thread.

Seconded. I would never allow some of the posters in this very thread around my family and especially not around my kids. Not exaggerating.