Idiot dragged out of bar by her hair for not wearing mask

[WAB]

I'm a bit late to this thread, and forgive me if this has been covered, but I believe that dragging someone by the hair would be classified as non-lethal. If anyone disputes that, we likely aren't going to agree on much.

I have known quite a few bouncers in my time, and been present for a good number of bar ejections. I have never personally witnessed anyone being drug out by the hair, but I would venture to say that this woman is not the first to have been drug out of a bar by her hair. Dragging someone by the hair, while it may be painful, is not going to cause them serious injury, and I don't see how it can be classified as brutal. There are any number of holds that bouncers use on a regular basis that are just as painful, and have a far more likelihood of injuring or even killing the person being removed from the establishment.

I have witnessed a bouncer having his arms gouged to the point that he should have gone to the hospital for stitches by a woman's nails as he ejected her from a bar. If he had dragged her out by the hair, I doubt that she would have had the opportunity to lacerate him with her nails.

I simply do not see the brutality here. Hair pulling is frowned upon in a fair fight, but the last thing you should expect when you defy a bouncer is a fair fight.

Fuck bouncers. None of you would be defending this asshat of a bouncer if the context were different. Own it or look stupid, your choice.

The only one looking stupid is the person saying that context (aka the actions of the patron) don't matter, so we should all have the same opinion of the bouncer no matter what the patron did.

It doesn't matter what the patron did. Even if she had pulled a gun on someone, or a knife, and even in f she had screamed at the top of her lungs for forty minutes. It would STILL be unconscionable for her to be dragged across the fucking floor by her fucking HAIR.

Let me ask you: would you drag a woman (or any person ) by the fucking hair across the fucking floor, in order to throw them out of an establishment?

If you answer yes, you will be showing your true colors.

 

[Jarhyn]

The only one looking stupid is the person saying that context (aka the actions of the patron) don't matter, so we should all have the same opinion of the bouncer no matter what the patron did.

It doesn't matter what the patron did. Even if she had pulled a gun on someone, or a knife, and even in f she had screamed at the top of her lungs for forty minutes. It would STILL be unconscionable for her to be dragged across the fucking floor by her fucking HAIR.

Let me ask you: would you drag a woman (or any person ) by the fucking hair across the fucking floor, in order to throw them out of an establishment?

If you answer yes, you will be showing your true colors.

Take your bullshit about what is and isn't acceptable in a fucking fight and politely blow it out your goddamn ass.

When someone is keen on injuring you however they can on account of you, the bouncer, the collective voice of violence, showing them the door, your job is to do what is necessary to put them on the other side of that door.

Take your sanctimonious bullshit and take it elsewhere. I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else who has never been in a fight with a crazed asshole before might say about it.

I would ABSOLUTELY drag someone by the hair if they weren't letting me get any other leverage, aren't intent on just leaving on their own, are threatening continued injury, and I could get that much. They would end up less injured from that than they would ever get from any other method I would have to physically remove someone; all the other methods of actually removing someone from a space would require either submission or unconsciousness, and neither of those things would happen as easily as securing some hair and using that lever.

Yell and scream all you want about that. Calling the police is too fucking slow on account of them being a fucking plague rat exposing the patrons and police in an hour or two.

Why should I care what arbitrary fucking lines you draw?

 

[WAB]

The only one looking stupid is the person saying that context (aka the actions of the patron) don't matter, so we should all have the same opinion of the bouncer no matter what the patron did.

It doesn't matter what the patron did. Even if she had pulled a gun on someone, or a knife, and even in f she had screamed at the top of her lungs for forty minutes. It would STILL be unconscionable for her to be dragged across the fucking floor by her fucking HAIR.

Let me ask you: would you drag a woman (or any person ) by the fucking hair across the fucking floor, in order to throw them out of an establishment?

If you answer yes, you will be showing your true colors.

Take your bullshit about what is and isn't acceptable in a fucking fight and politely blow it out your goddamn ass.

When someone is keen on injuring you however they can on account of you, the bouncer, the collective voice of violence, showing them the door, your job is to do what is necessary to put them on the other side of that door.

Take your sanctimonious bullshit and take it elsewhere. I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else who has never been in a fight with a crazed asshole before might say about it.

I would ABSOLUTELY drag someone by the hair if they weren't letting me get any other leverage, aren't intent on just leaving on their own, are threatening continued injury, and I could get that much. They would end up less injured from that than they would ever get from any other method I would have to physically remove someone; all the other methods of actually removing someone from a space would require either submission or unconsciousness, and neither of those things would happen as easily as securing some hair and using that lever.

Yell and scream all you want about that. Calling the police is too fucking slow on account of them being a fucking plague rat exposing the patrons and police in an hour or two.

Why should I care what arbitrary fucking lines you draw?

Thanks, Jarhyn. What I suspect is you've never been in a fight. Or if you have, you lost.

I may be wrong.

But, for all your telling bluster, you've admitted that you would drag someone out of an establishment by the hair. Thanks for that.

Someone that out of hand can and should be rendered inoperative by other means than dragging them out by the hair. If you have actually been in these kind of altercations you would know that.

Show me ONE altercation involving police where a suspect or criminal was dragged across a floor by the hair.

Only knuckle dragging brutes would resort to such brutality. The worst thing is that I know you know that.

The very tone you use in your post reveals your anger. Your colors are showing.

Peace be with you, if you can achieve it. Best of luck.

 

[Terrell]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Did you not read what I wrote?

Certainly the establishment had the right to remove her, and they could have called the police if the woman had gotten that far out of control.

There was zero justification, however, for pulling her out by her hair!

How could such a simple fucking concept not be understood?

What in the holy fuck are you people smoking?????

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Show me how you leap from “Should not be dragged out by hair” to “Should be expected to let her stay.”

How can you make such a false dichotomy with a straight face?
There are hundreds of choices in how to make someone leave that do not include dragging them by the hair, especially when a second bouncer is right there.


Since you’re making a straw man out of my position, I’ll state it again just as clearly:

• Yes she was a danger based on her non-compliance to plague rules
• Yes she needed to be removed
• No, that does not require dragging her by the hair.

How do I know that? Because thousands of people are removed from bars every day for doing dangerous things, and hair-dragging is uncommon.


This was an overreaction that clearly showed a bouncer wanting to exert power more than she wanted to remove a patron to protect against virus.

The whole screaming shouting event was the worst possible escalation of virus spreading. It was STUPID as well as unnecessarily brutal. One can use force without being a brute. One can remove someone without making the thing from which you are ostensibly protecting far worse.

There are hundreds of alternatives to dragging a bar patron by the hair.
It was a brutish act that escalated for power. It was achingly stupid.

I went back to the video and screen-grabbed frames. The bouncer absolutely had her hand around the patron’s hair and the patron was clearly fighting that hand.

I will now sit back and ponder what makes some of you decide to defend this act as a dichotomy against no action at all, instead of talking about what the bouncer could have done differently. The conversation surprises me somewhat, and I’m curious to ponder what frame of mind made you all surprise me.

My point of asking was to see if it was the dragging by the hair was the complaint in your arguments. I don't see a problem with pulling her by her hair, any more than I'd see a problem with pulling her by her arm or leg. The main thing was to enforce the policy and remove violators, physically if necessary. I don't think they should have to wait for the police. For it to be too far they'd have needed to have done serious injury in this situation. I place no blame on the bouncer on these facts. It would have to been escalated to at least an outright beating before I'm going to call this too far.

Oh, and Rhea, my reply wasn't to you initially, or I'd have quoted you when replying to WAB.

 

[WAB]

Did you not read what I wrote?

Certainly the establishment had the right to remove her, and they could have called the police if the woman had gotten that far out of control.

There was zero justification, however, for pulling her out by her hair!

How could such a simple fucking concept not be understood?

What in the holy fuck are you people smoking?????

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Show me how you leap from “Should not be dragged out by hair” to “Should be expected to let her stay.”

How can you make such a false dichotomy with a straight face?
There are hundreds of choices in how to make someone leave that do not include dragging them by the hair, especially when a second bouncer is right there.


Since you’re making a straw man out of my position, I’ll state it again just as clearly:

• Yes she was a danger based on her non-compliance to plague rules
• Yes she needed to be removed
• No, that does not require dragging her by the hair.

How do I know that? Because thousands of people are removed from bars every day for doing dangerous things, and hair-dragging is uncommon.


This was an overreaction that clearly showed a bouncer wanting to exert power more than she wanted to remove a patron to protect against virus.

The whole screaming shouting event was the worst possible escalation of virus spreading. It was STUPID as well as unnecessarily brutal. One can use force without being a brute. One can remove someone without making the thing from which you are ostensibly protecting far worse.

There are hundreds of alternatives to dragging a bar patron by the hair.
It was a brutish act that escalated for power. It was achingly stupid.

I went back to the video and screen-grabbed frames. The bouncer absolutely had her hand around the patron’s hair and the patron was clearly fighting that hand.

I will now sit back and ponder what makes some of you decide to defend this act as a dichotomy against no action at all, instead of talking about what the bouncer could have done differently. The conversation surprises me somewhat, and I’m curious to ponder what frame of mind made you all surprise me.

My point of asking was to see if it was the dragging by the hair was the complaint in your arguments. I don't see a problem with pulling her by her hair, any more than I'd see a problem with pulling her by her arm or leg. The main thing was to enforce the policy and remove violators, physically if necessary. I don't think they should have to wait for the police. For it to be too far they'd have needed to have done serious injury in this situation. I place no blame on the bouncer on these facts. It would have to been escalated to at least an outright beating before I'm going to call this too far.

Oh, and Rhea, my reply wasn't to you initially, or I'd have quoted you when replying to WAB.

Holy crap!

Terrell, remind me not to allow you around my loved ones, and especially not around my kids. Thanks.

 

[Terrell]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Show me how you leap from “Should not be dragged out by hair” to “Should be expected to let her stay.”

How can you make such a false dichotomy with a straight face?
There are hundreds of choices in how to make someone leave that do not include dragging them by the hair, especially when a second bouncer is right there.


Since you’re making a straw man out of my position, I’ll state it again just as clearly:

• Yes she was a danger based on her non-compliance to plague rules
• Yes she needed to be removed
• No, that does not require dragging her by the hair.

How do I know that? Because thousands of people are removed from bars every day for doing dangerous things, and hair-dragging is uncommon.


This was an overreaction that clearly showed a bouncer wanting to exert power more than she wanted to remove a patron to protect against virus.

The whole screaming shouting event was the worst possible escalation of virus spreading. It was STUPID as well as unnecessarily brutal. One can use force without being a brute. One can remove someone without making the thing from which you are ostensibly protecting far worse.

There are hundreds of alternatives to dragging a bar patron by the hair.
It was a brutish act that escalated for power. It was achingly stupid.

I went back to the video and screen-grabbed frames. The bouncer absolutely had her hand around the patron’s hair and the patron was clearly fighting that hand.

I will now sit back and ponder what makes some of you decide to defend this act as a dichotomy against no action at all, instead of talking about what the bouncer could have done differently. The conversation surprises me somewhat, and I’m curious to ponder what frame of mind made you all surprise me.

My point of asking was to see if it was the dragging by the hair was the complaint in your arguments. I don't see a problem with pulling her by her hair, any more than I'd see a problem with pulling her by her arm or leg. The main thing was to enforce the policy and remove violators, physically if necessary. I don't think they should have to wait for the police. For it to be too far they'd have needed to have done serious injury in this situation. I place no blame on the bouncer on these facts. It would have to been escalated to at least an outright beating before I'm going to call this too far.

Oh, and Rhea, my reply wasn't to you initially, or I'd have quoted you when replying to WAB.

Holy crap!

Terrell, remind me not to allow you around my loved ones, and especially not around my kids. Thanks.

She brought this on herself. Could have been prevented by wearing her mask, or leaving when told to. She showed her behind in public & had to face a consequence for doing so. I don't see the problem here & I think you're overblowing the action of dragging her out by the hair.

This has nothing to do with your family.

(in case you don't know "showing your behind" is another way to say making an ass of yourself)

 

[WAB]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Show me how you leap from “Should not be dragged out by hair” to “Should be expected to let her stay.”

How can you make such a false dichotomy with a straight face?
There are hundreds of choices in how to make someone leave that do not include dragging them by the hair, especially when a second bouncer is right there.


Since you’re making a straw man out of my position, I’ll state it again just as clearly:

• Yes she was a danger based on her non-compliance to plague rules
• Yes she needed to be removed
• No, that does not require dragging her by the hair.

How do I know that? Because thousands of people are removed from bars every day for doing dangerous things, and hair-dragging is uncommon.


This was an overreaction that clearly showed a bouncer wanting to exert power more than she wanted to remove a patron to protect against virus.

The whole screaming shouting event was the worst possible escalation of virus spreading. It was STUPID as well as unnecessarily brutal. One can use force without being a brute. One can remove someone without making the thing from which you are ostensibly protecting far worse.

There are hundreds of alternatives to dragging a bar patron by the hair.
It was a brutish act that escalated for power. It was achingly stupid.

I went back to the video and screen-grabbed frames. The bouncer absolutely had her hand around the patron’s hair and the patron was clearly fighting that hand.

I will now sit back and ponder what makes some of you decide to defend this act as a dichotomy against no action at all, instead of talking about what the bouncer could have done differently. The conversation surprises me somewhat, and I’m curious to ponder what frame of mind made you all surprise me.

My point of asking was to see if it was the dragging by the hair was the complaint in your arguments. I don't see a problem with pulling her by her hair, any more than I'd see a problem with pulling her by her arm or leg. The main thing was to enforce the policy and remove violators, physically if necessary. I don't think they should have to wait for the police. For it to be too far they'd have needed to have done serious injury in this situation. I place no blame on the bouncer on these facts. It would have to been escalated to at least an outright beating before I'm going to call this too far.

Oh, and Rhea, my reply wasn't to you initially, or I'd have quoted you when replying to WAB.

Holy crap!

Terrell, remind me not to allow you around my loved ones, and especially not around my kids. Thanks.

She brought this on herself. Could have been prevented by wearing her mask, or leaving when told to. She showed her behind in public & had to face a consequence for doing so. I don't see the problem here & I think you're overblowing the action of dragging her out by the hair.

This has nothing to do with your family.

(in case you don't know "showing your behind" is another way to say making an ass of yourself)

Yeah, um, er...whatever you say. Just stay away from me and my loved ones.

 

[Terrell]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Show me how you leap from “Should not be dragged out by hair” to “Should be expected to let her stay.”

How can you make such a false dichotomy with a straight face?
There are hundreds of choices in how to make someone leave that do not include dragging them by the hair, especially when a second bouncer is right there.


Since you’re making a straw man out of my position, I’ll state it again just as clearly:

• Yes she was a danger based on her non-compliance to plague rules
• Yes she needed to be removed
• No, that does not require dragging her by the hair.

How do I know that? Because thousands of people are removed from bars every day for doing dangerous things, and hair-dragging is uncommon.


This was an overreaction that clearly showed a bouncer wanting to exert power more than she wanted to remove a patron to protect against virus.

The whole screaming shouting event was the worst possible escalation of virus spreading. It was STUPID as well as unnecessarily brutal. One can use force without being a brute. One can remove someone without making the thing from which you are ostensibly protecting far worse.

There are hundreds of alternatives to dragging a bar patron by the hair.
It was a brutish act that escalated for power. It was achingly stupid.

I went back to the video and screen-grabbed frames. The bouncer absolutely had her hand around the patron’s hair and the patron was clearly fighting that hand.

I will now sit back and ponder what makes some of you decide to defend this act as a dichotomy against no action at all, instead of talking about what the bouncer could have done differently. The conversation surprises me somewhat, and I’m curious to ponder what frame of mind made you all surprise me.

My point of asking was to see if it was the dragging by the hair was the complaint in your arguments. I don't see a problem with pulling her by her hair, any more than I'd see a problem with pulling her by her arm or leg. The main thing was to enforce the policy and remove violators, physically if necessary. I don't think they should have to wait for the police. For it to be too far they'd have needed to have done serious injury in this situation. I place no blame on the bouncer on these facts. It would have to been escalated to at least an outright beating before I'm going to call this too far.

Oh, and Rhea, my reply wasn't to you initially, or I'd have quoted you when replying to WAB.

Holy crap!

Terrell, remind me not to allow you around my loved ones, and especially not around my kids. Thanks.

She brought this on herself. Could have been prevented by wearing her mask, or leaving when told to. She showed her behind in public & had to face a consequence for doing so. I don't see the problem here & I think you're overblowing the action of dragging her out by the hair.

This has nothing to do with your family.

(in case you don't know "showing your behind" is another way to say making an ass of yourself)

Yeah, um, er...whatever you say. Just stay away from me and my loved ones.

Looks like you can't actually address the fact that this was the result of the woman's behavior.

 

[WAB]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Show me how you leap from “Should not be dragged out by hair” to “Should be expected to let her stay.”

How can you make such a false dichotomy with a straight face?
There are hundreds of choices in how to make someone leave that do not include dragging them by the hair, especially when a second bouncer is right there.


Since you’re making a straw man out of my position, I’ll state it again just as clearly:

• Yes she was a danger based on her non-compliance to plague rules
• Yes she needed to be removed
• No, that does not require dragging her by the hair.

How do I know that? Because thousands of people are removed from bars every day for doing dangerous things, and hair-dragging is uncommon.


This was an overreaction that clearly showed a bouncer wanting to exert power more than she wanted to remove a patron to protect against virus.

The whole screaming shouting event was the worst possible escalation of virus spreading. It was STUPID as well as unnecessarily brutal. One can use force without being a brute. One can remove someone without making the thing from which you are ostensibly protecting far worse.

There are hundreds of alternatives to dragging a bar patron by the hair.
It was a brutish act that escalated for power. It was achingly stupid.

I went back to the video and screen-grabbed frames. The bouncer absolutely had her hand around the patron’s hair and the patron was clearly fighting that hand.

I will now sit back and ponder what makes some of you decide to defend this act as a dichotomy against no action at all, instead of talking about what the bouncer could have done differently. The conversation surprises me somewhat, and I’m curious to ponder what frame of mind made you all surprise me.

My point of asking was to see if it was the dragging by the hair was the complaint in your arguments. I don't see a problem with pulling her by her hair, any more than I'd see a problem with pulling her by her arm or leg. The main thing was to enforce the policy and remove violators, physically if necessary. I don't think they should have to wait for the police. For it to be too far they'd have needed to have done serious injury in this situation. I place no blame on the bouncer on these facts. It would have to been escalated to at least an outright beating before I'm going to call this too far.

Oh, and Rhea, my reply wasn't to you initially, or I'd have quoted you when replying to WAB.

Holy crap!

Terrell, remind me not to allow you around my loved ones, and especially not around my kids. Thanks.

She brought this on herself. Could have been prevented by wearing her mask, or leaving when told to. She showed her behind in public & had to face a consequence for doing so. I don't see the problem here & I think you're overblowing the action of dragging her out by the hair.

This has nothing to do with your family.

(in case you don't know "showing your behind" is another way to say making an ass of yourself)

Yeah, um, er...whatever you say. Just stay away from me and my loved ones.

Looks like you can't actually address the fact that this was the result of the woman's behavior.

Holy crap! I have already stated that the woman's behavior started it.

But a civilized human does not drag a woman, or any person , across a floor by the hair.

Just admit that this is unacceptable behavior. Own it. Own it and the discussion will be over. Own it. Admit that such behavior is immoral and wrong, and utterly unjustified. Just admit it.

You would never drag a woman by her hair across a floor, no matter what she did.

I wouldn't even drag fucking Hitler across the floor by his hair. I wouldn't even drag fucking Stalin by his hair across the floor.

Admit that you would never drag a person by the hair across the floor.

Admit it and the conversation will be over, and we can talk about something else.

 

[Gospel]

Forgive me for thinking someone on this forum was dragged by their hair before.

 

[Terrell]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Show me how you leap from “Should not be dragged out by hair” to “Should be expected to let her stay.”

How can you make such a false dichotomy with a straight face?
There are hundreds of choices in how to make someone leave that do not include dragging them by the hair, especially when a second bouncer is right there.


Since you’re making a straw man out of my position, I’ll state it again just as clearly:

• Yes she was a danger based on her non-compliance to plague rules
• Yes she needed to be removed
• No, that does not require dragging her by the hair.

How do I know that? Because thousands of people are removed from bars every day for doing dangerous things, and hair-dragging is uncommon.


This was an overreaction that clearly showed a bouncer wanting to exert power more than she wanted to remove a patron to protect against virus.

The whole screaming shouting event was the worst possible escalation of virus spreading. It was STUPID as well as unnecessarily brutal. One can use force without being a brute. One can remove someone without making the thing from which you are ostensibly protecting far worse.

There are hundreds of alternatives to dragging a bar patron by the hair.
It was a brutish act that escalated for power. It was achingly stupid.

I went back to the video and screen-grabbed frames. The bouncer absolutely had her hand around the patron’s hair and the patron was clearly fighting that hand.

I will now sit back and ponder what makes some of you decide to defend this act as a dichotomy against no action at all, instead of talking about what the bouncer could have done differently. The conversation surprises me somewhat, and I’m curious to ponder what frame of mind made you all surprise me.

My point of asking was to see if it was the dragging by the hair was the complaint in your arguments. I don't see a problem with pulling her by her hair, any more than I'd see a problem with pulling her by her arm or leg. The main thing was to enforce the policy and remove violators, physically if necessary. I don't think they should have to wait for the police. For it to be too far they'd have needed to have done serious injury in this situation. I place no blame on the bouncer on these facts. It would have to been escalated to at least an outright beating before I'm going to call this too far.

Oh, and Rhea, my reply wasn't to you initially, or I'd have quoted you when replying to WAB.

Holy crap!

Terrell, remind me not to allow you around my loved ones, and especially not around my kids. Thanks.

She brought this on herself. Could have been prevented by wearing her mask, or leaving when told to. She showed her behind in public & had to face a consequence for doing so. I don't see the problem here & I think you're overblowing the action of dragging her out by the hair.

This has nothing to do with your family.

(in case you don't know "showing your behind" is another way to say making an ass of yourself)

Yeah, um, er...whatever you say. Just stay away from me and my loved ones.

Looks like you can't actually address the fact that this was the result of the woman's behavior.

Holy crap! I have already stated that the woman's behavior started it.

But a civilized human does not drag a woman, or any person , across a floor by the hair.

Just admit that this is unacceptable behavior. Own it. Own it and the discussion will be over. Own it. Admit that such behavior is immoral and wrong, and utterly unjustified. Just admit it.

You would never drag a woman by her hair across a floor, no matter what she did.

I wouldn't even drag fucking Hitler across the floor by his hair. I wouldn't even drag fucking Stalin by his hair across the floor.

Admit that you would never drag a person by the hair across the floor.

Admit it and the conversation will be over, and we can talk about something else.

See I don't think that the behavior of the bouncer is unacceptable as I don't see anything special about dragging her out by her hair as opposed to one of her limbs. I say "too far" at beating or worse. Same if she was picked up by her belt loop (waist of her pants) & the back of her shirt then dropped outside the door. Now if it was a body slam, then I'd say "too far". This is an issue of where "too far" is defined and how it could have been prevented by the woman changing her behavior.

 

[Jarhyn]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Show me how you leap from “Should not be dragged out by hair” to “Should be expected to let her stay.”

How can you make such a false dichotomy with a straight face?
There are hundreds of choices in how to make someone leave that do not include dragging them by the hair, especially when a second bouncer is right there.


Since you’re making a straw man out of my position, I’ll state it again just as clearly:

• Yes she was a danger based on her non-compliance to plague rules
• Yes she needed to be removed
• No, that does not require dragging her by the hair.

How do I know that? Because thousands of people are removed from bars every day for doing dangerous things, and hair-dragging is uncommon.


This was an overreaction that clearly showed a bouncer wanting to exert power more than she wanted to remove a patron to protect against virus.

The whole screaming shouting event was the worst possible escalation of virus spreading. It was STUPID as well as unnecessarily brutal. One can use force without being a brute. One can remove someone without making the thing from which you are ostensibly protecting far worse.

There are hundreds of alternatives to dragging a bar patron by the hair.
It was a brutish act that escalated for power. It was achingly stupid.

I went back to the video and screen-grabbed frames. The bouncer absolutely had her hand around the patron’s hair and the patron was clearly fighting that hand.

I will now sit back and ponder what makes some of you decide to defend this act as a dichotomy against no action at all, instead of talking about what the bouncer could have done differently. The conversation surprises me somewhat, and I’m curious to ponder what frame of mind made you all surprise me.

My point of asking was to see if it was the dragging by the hair was the complaint in your arguments. I don't see a problem with pulling her by her hair, any more than I'd see a problem with pulling her by her arm or leg. The main thing was to enforce the policy and remove violators, physically if necessary. I don't think they should have to wait for the police. For it to be too far they'd have needed to have done serious injury in this situation. I place no blame on the bouncer on these facts. It would have to been escalated to at least an outright beating before I'm going to call this too far.

Oh, and Rhea, my reply wasn't to you initially, or I'd have quoted you when replying to WAB.

Holy crap!

Terrell, remind me not to allow you around my loved ones, and especially not around my kids. Thanks.

She brought this on herself. Could have been prevented by wearing her mask, or leaving when told to. She showed her behind in public & had to face a consequence for doing so. I don't see the problem here & I think you're overblowing the action of dragging her out by the hair.

This has nothing to do with your family.

(in case you don't know "showing your behind" is another way to say making an ass of yourself)

Yeah, um, er...whatever you say. Just stay away from me and my loved ones.

Looks like you can't actually address the fact that this was the result of the woman's behavior.

Holy crap! I have already stated that the woman's behavior started it.

But a civilized human does not drag a woman, or any person , across a floor by the hair.

Just admit that this is unacceptable behavior. Own it. Own it and the discussion will be over. Own it. Admit that such behavior is immoral and wrong, and utterly unjustified. Just admit it.

You would never drag a woman by her hair across a floor, no matter what she did.

I wouldn't even drag fucking Hitler across the floor by his hair. I wouldn't even drag fucking Stalin by his hair across the floor.

Admit that you would never drag a person by the hair across the floor.

Admit it and the conversation will be over, and we can talk about something else.

More just-so bullshit. Justify your belief, and proclaim from whence comes this ridiculous piety.

Just because you wouldn't do it does not make you right. Just because it makes you squeemish does not make you right.

All you have are sanctimonious whinges and assertions about what you proclaim unacceptable. Well, nobody else has to care about that.

In fact, in all the classes I've taken on the subject, they recommend controlling someone by the head, preferably the back of the head, if possible. It's a primary reason that I had short hair for three years. Not only because it was acceptable to grab someone by the hair in a fight but because it was expected.

 

[Jarhyn]

See I don't think that the behavior of the bouncer is unacceptable as I don't see anything special about dragging her out by her hair as opposed to one of her limbs. I say "too far" at beating or worse. Same if she was picked up by her belt loop (waist of her pants) & the back of her shirt then dropped outside the door. Now if it was a body slam, then I'd say "too far". This is an issue of where "too far" is defined and how it could have been prevented by the woman changing her behavior.

Exactly. In this situation, the bouncer has to navigate a complicated calculus where the first point of traction or physical leverage hey get, they must keep because they don't know when the next one will come, or whether they will slip and get into a reversal.

Once you have that, you lever it until they either give up or you have them on the other side of the door.

The more space you give them, the longer you give them to get hurt, for them to hurt you.

Getting squeemish about a hair grab is how you lose teeth. It puts them in a very unleveraged position, and gives you control of their head. If you let it go, the fight starts up again. If you hold it, you can drag them out the door and the fight ends.

Unless they have long hair and you can only get the tip of the pony tail. Then the calculus can change badly to them turning about and taking advantage of your occupied hand.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I wouldn't even drag fucking Hitler across the floor by his hair. I wouldn't even drag fucking Stalin by his hair across the floor.

Uh... I would. Somehow that makes me evil or something I guess.

But go ahead, bar me from being around you or your family for that. Lmao.

 

[Jarhyn]

I wouldn't even drag fucking Hitler across the floor by his hair. I wouldn't even drag fucking Stalin by his hair across the floor.

Uh... I would. Somehow that makes me evil or something I guess.

They are doing a trick I haven't seen busted out in a while and I'm disappointed I didn't catch it earlier. It's a "special pleading" and concern trolling. They are arbitrarily picking out one aspect and inflating the ethical significance of that action, hoping to convince the audience without evidence that they should have some visceral reaction to the activity. Pleading, just-so, that hair dragging is special among acts.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Show me ONE altercation involving police where a suspect or criminal was dragged across a floor by the hair.

Yeah. Cops only shoot unarmed people in the back all the time. That's way more civilized.

Also, a 30 second google search found at least a few videos of cops grabbing people by the hair as part of their 'arrest'. They weren't dragging them across a floor, but cops regularly use whatever they can to control someone they are arresting (usually after instigating the violence themselves) so go ahead and keep making your BS assertions.

 

[Gospel]

Show me ONE altercation involving police where a suspect or criminal was dragged across a floor by the hair.

Yeah. Cops only shoot unarmed people in the back all the time. That's way more civilized.

Also, a 30 second google search found at least a few videos of cops grabbing people by the hair as part of their 'arrest'. They weren't dragging them across a floor, but cops regularly use whatever they can to control someone they are arresting (usually after instigating the violence themselves) so go ahead and keep making your BS assertions.

False start, five yards penalty. Third down.

I don't think WAB was considering cops shooting unarmed people and other wrong doings. I think it's is only about cops actually doing their job right. Though I admit that even hand to hand tactics allowed by the police are more brutal than this hair dragging and is more likely to result in death.

 

[Gun Nut]

This is about some of you cheering about a defenseless woman who had the shit beat out of her. As I said, if this had been a person of color rather than a "white Karen type" the narrative on here would be a lot different. Get a grip of yourselves.

I think this woman was in idiot and in the wrong 100%, but I agree with you that race/ethnicity/religion drives a lot of the narrative on here. Just look at the reactions to the Gorilla Glue Girl where I was accused of racism just for mentioning that story. Apparently this case is worthy of being discussed on here, but a likely Gorilla Glue lawsuit is not ...

Naw, you fucked up whatever point you might have been trying to make with Gorilla Glue Girl when you equated it with McDonalds murdering a woman with literally boiling coffee, unfit for human consumption.

 

[Gun Nut]

I strongly suspect in resisting being thrown out she fell down.

But you are assuming to justify the brutality.
ou don’t know that.

Besides, dragging by the hair has an advantage--it encourages the person to come along rather than resist.

Holy shit. That is callous.
No. Dragging someone by the hair is not justified.

And FFS, i is going to make her scream louder and more, spraying MORE potentially harmful moisture around.
So the right thing to do is get her out as calmly as humanly possible.

No. Professionally speaking, her obligation was to neutralize the threat of the maskless drunk person. The "deadly weapon" was her spit. Neutralizing someone's mouth quite reasonably involves controlling the head. Hair is an obvious means to accomplish that.
Intentionally keeping the perp's face as close to the ground as possible while removing the threat to others, was perfectly reasonable, appropriate, and measured.

 

[KeepTalking]

The only one looking stupid is the person saying that context (aka the actions of the patron) don't matter, so we should all have the same opinion of the bouncer no matter what the patron did.

It doesn't matter what the patron did. Even if she had pulled a gun on someone, or a knife, and even in f she had screamed at the top of her lungs for forty minutes. It would STILL be unconscionable for her to be dragged across the fucking floor by her fucking HAIR.

What makes this act so unconscionable for you? I am legitimately puzzled as to why it is so abhorrent to drag someone by the hair, when the worst that is going to directly result from the act is some hair pulled out, and hair grows back. Seems much better than lacerations, broken bones, or choked off airways that can result from the other ways of subduing and controlling an opponent during an altercation.