Idiot dragged out of bar by her hair for not wearing mask

[Swammerdami]

For me the big-picture take-away from this incident is NOT whether a particular bouncer was at fault or not, but What in tarnation has the U.S.A. come to? Do I get a misleading look from these singular news stories? Or, as I hear from my sister and from anecdotes, are the hatreds and polarization now apparent in ordinary American life? Are other countries suffering from such polarization? (There's about zero Covid in our province here, but we all meekly wear the required masks without complaint.)


As far as the specific incident:
The very few evictions I've seen from a bar have been civil with no violence — in many ways my life has been very tame. I know nothing of martial arts, so I'm not really entitled to an opinion on this topic. But it's my turn and I'll speak up anyway.

Assuming that Karen(!) was a good fighter, might not — as other in the thread have suggested — the hair-pulling have been the approach that minimized the risk of injury, both to Karen and to the bouncer(s)? Surely we're not objecting to the hair-pulling just because it was unchivalrous or fit a "dirty fighting" stereotype. BTW, I would guess that most bouncers are instructed NOT to call the police for a situation they can handle themselves. Am I wrong about that?

Suppose the bar was "The MAGA Bar — wearing of masks is prohibited", and Karen had been asked to leave because she refused to remove her mask. Would any in the thread switch sides in that hypothetical?

 

[TSwizzle]

For me the big-picture take-away from this incident is NOT whether a particular bouncer was at fault or not, but What in tarnation has the U.S.A. come to? Do I get a misleading look from these singular news stories? Or, as I hear from my sister and from anecdotes, are the hatreds and polarization now apparent in ordinary American life? Are other countries suffering from such polarization? (There's about zero Covid in our province here, but we all meekly wear the required masks without complaint.)


As far as the specific incident:
The very few evictions I've seen from a bar have been civil with no violence — in many ways my life has been very tame. I know nothing of martial arts, so I'm not really entitled to an opinion on this topic. But it's my turn and I'll speak up anyway.

Assuming that Karen(!) was a good fighter, might not — as other in the thread have suggested — the hair-pulling have been the approach that minimized the risk of injury, both to Karen and to the bouncer(s)? Surely we're not objecting to the hair-pulling just because it was unchivalrous or fit a "dirty fighting" stereotype. BTW, I would guess that most bouncers are instructed NOT to call the police for a situation they can handle themselves. Am I wrong about that?

Suppose the bar was "The MAGA Bar — wearing of masks is prohibited", and Karen had been asked to leave because she refused to remove her mask. Would any in the thread switch sides in that hypothetical?

Interesting that you have chosen to refer to the victim of this unwarranted violence as Karen when her actual name is Bliss. You've dehumanized the victim right out the gate.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

For me the big-picture take-away from this incident is NOT whether a particular bouncer was at fault or not, but What in tarnation has the U.S.A. come to? Do I get a misleading look from these singular news stories? Or, as I hear from my sister and from anecdotes, are the hatreds and polarization now apparent in ordinary American life? Are other countries suffering from such polarization? (There's about zero Covid in our province here, but we all meekly wear the required masks without complaint.)


As far as the specific incident:
The very few evictions I've seen from a bar have been civil with no violence — in many ways my life has been very tame. I know nothing of martial arts, so I'm not really entitled to an opinion on this topic. But it's my turn and I'll speak up anyway.

Assuming that Karen(!) was a good fighter, might not — as other in the thread have suggested — the hair-pulling have been the approach that minimized the risk of injury, both to Karen and to the bouncer(s)? Surely we're not objecting to the hair-pulling just because it was unchivalrous or fit a "dirty fighting" stereotype. BTW, I would guess that most bouncers are instructed NOT to call the police for a situation they can handle themselves. Am I wrong about that?

Suppose the bar was "The MAGA Bar — wearing of masks is prohibited", and Karen had been asked to leave because she refused to remove her mask. Would any in the thread switch sides in that hypothetical?

Interesting that you have chosen to refer to the victim of this unwarranted violence as Karen when her actual name is Bliss. You've dehumanized the victim right out the gate.

Uh, didn't you call me a chatbot before? I find that kind of dehumanizing.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I also find having my opinion dismissed because I'm a "radical" particularly dehumanizing too, but hey, what can ya do.

 

[Jarhyn]

For me the big-picture take-away from this incident is NOT whether a particular bouncer was at fault or not, but What in tarnation has the U.S.A. come to? Do I get a misleading look from these singular news stories? Or, as I hear from my sister and from anecdotes, are the hatreds and polarization now apparent in ordinary American life? Are other countries suffering from such polarization? (There's about zero Covid in our province here, but we all meekly wear the required masks without complaint.)


As far as the specific incident:
The very few evictions I've seen from a bar have been civil with no violence — in many ways my life has been very tame. I know nothing of martial arts, so I'm not really entitled to an opinion on this topic. But it's my turn and I'll speak up anyway.

Assuming that Karen(!) was a good fighter, might not — as other in the thread have suggested — the hair-pulling have been the approach that minimized the risk of injury, both to Karen and to the bouncer(s)? Surely we're not objecting to the hair-pulling just because it was unchivalrous or fit a "dirty fighting" stereotype. BTW, I would guess that most bouncers are instructed NOT to call the police for a situation they can handle themselves. Am I wrong about that?

Suppose the bar was "The MAGA Bar — wearing of masks is prohibited", and Karen had been asked to leave because she refused to remove her mask. Would any in the thread switch sides in that hypothetical?

If it was some situation wherein COVID is long past and some people just now regularly wear masks for the same reason many in asia do, and someone was being bounced from a bar for obscuring their face (again, assuming the threat is passed), and someone was being belligerent about taking their mask off OR leaving, and started a physical altercation, I would be fine with the physical action of a bouncer subduing and removing the patron by their hair, assuming this is what it took to get the job done.

I would then proceed to lambast the establishment for being a backwards shithole, possibly use that as a reason to avoid the city and state it is located in, and to question why the fuck someone found themselves in that situation.

I would also cheer any broken teeth the bouncer got for working at such a place, and would take no pity on their injuries from the fight, which I assume certain parties would suddenly care about.

 

[KeepTalking]

For me the big-picture take-away from this incident is NOT whether a particular bouncer was at fault or not, but What in tarnation has the U.S.A. come to? Do I get a misleading look from these singular news stories? Or, as I hear from my sister and from anecdotes, are the hatreds and polarization now apparent in ordinary American life? Are other countries suffering from such polarization? (There's about zero Covid in our province here, but we all meekly wear the required masks without complaint.)


As far as the specific incident:
The very few evictions I've seen from a bar have been civil with no violence — in many ways my life has been very tame. I know nothing of martial arts, so I'm not really entitled to an opinion on this topic. But it's my turn and I'll speak up anyway.

Assuming that Karen(!) was a good fighter, might not — as other in the thread have suggested — the hair-pulling have been the approach that minimized the risk of injury, both to Karen and to the bouncer(s)? Surely we're not objecting to the hair-pulling just because it was unchivalrous or fit a "dirty fighting" stereotype. BTW, I would guess that most bouncers are instructed NOT to call the police for a situation they can handle themselves. Am I wrong about that?

Suppose the bar was "The MAGA Bar — wearing of masks is prohibited", and Karen had been asked to leave because she refused to remove her mask. Would any in the thread switch sides in that hypothetical?

I would still defend the bouncer, and the way she removed the unruly patron. The bouncers don't make the rules, they enforce them. I would, however, call out the bar owner for intentionally exposing his patrons (and employees, including the bouncer) to COVID during the pandemic.

 

[Swammerdami]

... Karen(!) ...

Interesting that you have chosen to refer to the victim of this unwarranted violence as Karen when her actual name is Bliss. You've dehumanized the victim right out the gate.

I'd have written "Bliss" if I'd remembered her name. As it was I couldn't decide if "victim" or "perp" was the appropriate shorthand for this woman whose name I couldn't remember. Calling her "Karen" was, I thought, a fairly harmless joke. I didn't want to waste words defending the joke, so compromised by writing "(!)" after the "Karen."

I am puzzled that you ignored any substance in my post, but needed to twist my mild joke into "dehumanization."

BTW, Notice that I stripped the extraneous portion of my quote above, to zero in on the part relevant to the sub-topic. I wonder why many TFTers fail to take the time to do this; it helps clarify discussion. (If the answer is: It's hard to edit on a smart-phone, I sympathize.)

 

[TSwizzle]

I am puzzled that you ignored any substance in my post, but needed to twist my mild joke into "dehumanization."

There wasn't any real substance to your post. Just mental gymnastics of implausible and irrelevant scenarios. The dehumanization of the victim, Bliss, is not twisted. It's what is actually happening on this thread and you have become part of that.

 

[Jarhyn]

I'd have written "Bliss" if I'd remembered her name. As it was I couldn't decide if "victim" or "perp" was the appropriate shorthand for this woman whose name I couldn't remember. Calling her "Karen" was, I thought, a fairly harmless joke. I didn't want to waste words defending the joke, so compromised by writing "(!)" after the "Karen."

I am puzzled that you ignored any substance in my post, but needed to twist my mild joke into "dehumanization."

BTW, Notice that I stripped the extraneous portion of my quote above, to zero in on the part relevant to the sub-topic. I wonder why many TFTers fail to take the time to do this; it helps clarify discussion. (If the answer is: It's hard to edit on a smart-phone, I sympathize.)

Yeah. For me it's the smartphone thing. It is also the source of 90% of my errors, owing to the difficulty of properly drafting with fat fingers.

At any rate, I would love some "better tools" for quotation and such, but even as a software engineer I am at a loss for what those would look like and as such I don't think it would even be reasonable to demand them at this time.

As to the post you reply to, Don't fall for the "dehumanization" bullshit.

They are trying to distract you from the fact that the behavior she herself engaged in is what "dehumanized" her, and this antisocial behavior is ultimately what produced the implied consent to be dragged out of a bar by a bouncer.

After all, if you assert a right through action of might to be in a place, you assume the right through action of the might of those who control that place to remove you. If you assert your right through acceptance of the rules of that place, then the people there may only remove you by the rules of that place else face the collective might of all.

Bliss picked the former. She chose to be animal rather than human.

 

[TomC]

Let me ask you: would you drag a woman (or any person ) by the fucking hair across the fucking floor, in order to throw them out of an establishment?

If you answer yes, you will be showing your true colors.

Yes.
The possible circumstances under which I would resort to that kind of behavior are vanishingly rare. But I do have vulnerable relatives, young and very old. If hairpulling was the least violent option to protect them from a dangerous drunken idiot, I would totally do it. However vanishingly rare, it's not impossible.

The problem I'm having with [MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION]; s opinion is the absolutism. I'm not the least bit inclined towards violence as a first response. But if I had to choose between hairpulling and a gunshot, protecting a vulnerable person, I'd go for the hairpulling. And there's also an important reason that I'm not interested in a job a bouncer in a rowdy bar. I'm not a violent person, so I stay away from places like that.

But they exist, other people can go there. And people who do choose to go need to realize that being drunk and entitled doesn't mean the bouncers have any reason to respect your feelings. They don't. It's their job to not respect your personal space or whatever. It's to enforce the rules by whatever means necessary.

Back in post #99, I referred to a rough bar near my home. I would never go there, nowadays. But I used to, sometimes. The bouncers were perfectly capable of violence far beyond hairpulling. I understood that, it is their job. I fully expect them to do it.

Tom

 

[TomC]

This thread rather reminds me of one my favorite Mahatma Gandhi stories.

Young man asks:
"But you can't always be a pacifist.
What if you're walking down a dark alley. Thugs jump you and try to rob you. You can't still be a pacifist. You've got to defend yourself!"

Gandhi replied:
"I don't go into dark alleys"

Gandhi was brilliant.

Tom

 

[WAB]

Let me ask you: would you drag a woman (or any person ) by the fucking hair across the fucking floor, in order to throw them out of an establishment?

If you answer yes, you will be showing your true colors.

Yes.
The possible circumstances under which I would resort to that kind of behavior are vanishingly rare. But I do have vulnerable relatives, young and very old. If hairpulling was the least violent option to protect them from a dangerous drunken idiot, I would totally do it. However vanishingly rare, it's not impossible.

The problem I'm having with [MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION]; s opinion is the absolutism. I'm not the least bit inclined towards violence as a first response. But if I had to choose between hairpulling and a gunshot, protecting a vulnerable person, I'd go for the hairpulling. And there's also an important reason that I'm not interested in a job a bouncer in a rowdy bar. I'm not a violent person, so I stay away from places like that.

But they exist, other people can go there. And people who do choose to go need to realize that being drunk and entitled doesn't mean the bouncers have any reason to respect your feelings. They don't. It's their job to not respect your personal space or whatever. It's to enforce the rules by whatever means necessary.

Back in post #99, I referred to a rough bar near my home. I would never go there, nowadays. But I used to, sometimes. The bouncers were perfectly capable of violence far beyond hairpulling. I understood that, it is their job. I fully expect them to do it.

Tom

I still think most of this is wrong headed, Tom.

Personally, if someone needed to be incapacitated, I would try a choke hold. The person is restrained and rendered unconscious, if done right. If a bouncer can overcome someone well enough to drag them by the hair, then they can put them in a choke hold.

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

If I were the bar owner, I would fire the bouncer.

If I were a bar owner, I would hire bouncers who could keep their head and remove people in the most efficient way possible.

Dragging by the hair would never be excusable, in any situation.

And I think this particular bouncer probably did what she did as a way to get instantly famous. It's open season on anti maskers, and she knew that people would not condemn her action, but celebrate it. She most certainly did not do it because it was the best option, because it would never be the best option, plain and simple.

 

[Jarhyn]

Let me ask you: would you drag a woman (or any person ) by the fucking hair across the fucking floor, in order to throw them out of an establishment?

If you answer yes, you will be showing your true colors.

Yes.
The possible circumstances under which I would resort to that kind of behavior are vanishingly rare. But I do have vulnerable relatives, young and very old. If hairpulling was the least violent option to protect them from a dangerous drunken idiot, I would totally do it. However vanishingly rare, it's not impossible.

The problem I'm having with [MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION]; s opinion is the absolutism. I'm not the least bit inclined towards violence as a first response. But if I had to choose between hairpulling and a gunshot, protecting a vulnerable person, I'd go for the hairpulling. And there's also an important reason that I'm not interested in a job a bouncer in a rowdy bar. I'm not a violent person, so I stay away from places like that.

But they exist, other people can go there. And people who do choose to go need to realize that being drunk and entitled doesn't mean the bouncers have any reason to respect your feelings. They don't. It's their job to not respect your personal space or whatever. It's to enforce the rules by whatever means necessary.

Back in post #99, I referred to a rough bar near my home. I would never go there, nowadays. But I used to, sometimes. The bouncers were perfectly capable of violence far beyond hairpulling. I understood that, it is their job. I fully expect them to do it.

Tom

I still think most of this is wrong headed, Tom.

Personally, if someone needed to be incapacitated, I would try a choke hold. The person is restrained and rendered unconscious, if done right. If a bouncer can overcome someone well enough to drag them by the hair, then they can put them in a choke hold.

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

If I were the bar owner, I would fire the bouncer.

If I were a bar owner, I would hire bouncers who could keep their head and remove people in the most efficient way possible.

Dragging by the hair would never be excusable, in any situation.

And I think this particular bouncer probably did what she did as a way to get instantly famous. It's open season on anti maskers, and she knew that people would not condemn her action, but celebrate it. She most certainly did not do it because it was the best option, because it would never be the best option, plain and simple.

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

So, instead of a hair drag, you would do something potentially LETHAL?

LOL, what a fucking load of shit.

Baww all you want over "dehumanizing".

Being knocked unconscious by any means is SUPER BAD for you. Like really really bad.

There's decent odds being choked unconscious causes permanent damage to the vocal cords, if you use an air choke. And lung damage. You will be fucked up for weeks after that.

Not to mention the stress to the circulatory system, or the fucking BRAIN DAMAGE caused by oxygen deprivation.

And that's assuming you can even get a choke hold.

Getting a choke hold is hard. There are two or three guard positions you can initiate one from, and they are difficult to maneuver into. Seasoned veterans have had a hard time getting me into one and I'm not even really well trained.

More often, it's going to be easier leveraging an arm or leg bar, and even that is a chore and a half, all the while you are being punched and gouged and kicked and are trying not to punch, gouge, or kick them. For the record, if they don't submit, or go back to fighting after you relent and release the bar (which is necessary to traverse them out the door), you go ahead and break their arm, leg, finger, or whatever or worse, now you have to do it all over again.

You have literally suggested the most dangerous, reckless option to subdue and remove available. The most potentially lethal, short of a fist-fight (which bouncers are supposed to avoid and stop).

 

[KeepTalking]

Let me ask you: would you drag a woman (or any person ) by the fucking hair across the fucking floor, in order to throw them out of an establishment?

If you answer yes, you will be showing your true colors.

Yes.
The possible circumstances under which I would resort to that kind of behavior are vanishingly rare. But I do have vulnerable relatives, young and very old. If hairpulling was the least violent option to protect them from a dangerous drunken idiot, I would totally do it. However vanishingly rare, it's not impossible.

The problem I'm having with [MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION]; s opinion is the absolutism. I'm not the least bit inclined towards violence as a first response. But if I had to choose between hairpulling and a gunshot, protecting a vulnerable person, I'd go for the hairpulling. And there's also an important reason that I'm not interested in a job a bouncer in a rowdy bar. I'm not a violent person, so I stay away from places like that.

But they exist, other people can go there. And people who do choose to go need to realize that being drunk and entitled doesn't mean the bouncers have any reason to respect your feelings. They don't. It's their job to not respect your personal space or whatever. It's to enforce the rules by whatever means necessary.

Back in post #99, I referred to a rough bar near my home. I would never go there, nowadays. But I used to, sometimes. The bouncers were perfectly capable of violence far beyond hairpulling. I understood that, it is their job. I fully expect them to do it.

Tom

I still think most of this is wrong headed, Tom.

Personally, if someone needed to be incapacitated, I would try a choke hold. The person is restrained and rendered unconscious, if done right. If a bouncer can overcome someone well enough to drag them by the hair, then they can put them in a choke hold.

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

If I were the bar owner, I would fire the bouncer.

If I were a bar owner, I would hire bouncers who could keep their head and remove people in the most efficient way possible.

Dragging by the hair would never be excusable, in any situation.

And I think this particular bouncer probably did what she did as a way to get instantly famous. It's open season on anti maskers, and she knew that people would not condemn her action, but celebrate it. She most certainly did not do it because it was the best option, because it would never be the best option, plain and simple.

Well, it's a good thing that you are not a bouncer. Choke holds are one of the most dangerous and potentially deadly was do subdue a person, and are banned by most Police departments. I think most bouncers are far likelier to be fired for applying a choke hold than pulling hair. After all, the bar owners would much rather have to deal with the media frenzy over pulling hair, rather than the legal shitstorm that would hit them as a result of the bouncer choking a customer to death.

 

[WAB]

I still think most of this is wrong headed, Tom.

Personally, if someone needed to be incapacitated, I would try a choke hold. The person is restrained and rendered unconscious, if done right. If a bouncer can overcome someone well enough to drag them by the hair, then they can put them in a choke hold.

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

If I were the bar owner, I would fire the bouncer.

If I were a bar owner, I would hire bouncers who could keep their head and remove people in the most efficient way possible.

Dragging by the hair would never be excusable, in any situation.

And I think this particular bouncer probably did what she did as a way to get instantly famous. It's open season on anti maskers, and she knew that people would not condemn her action, but celebrate it. She most certainly did not do it because it was the best option, because it would never be the best option, plain and simple.

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

So, instead of a hair drag, you would do something potentially LETHAL?

LOL, what a fucking load of shit.

Baww all you want over "dehumanizing".

Being knocked unconscious by any means is SUPER BAD for you. Like really really bad.

I would only do it if the person were causing a real immediate threat, as in right about to actually physically attack an innocent. And this is presuming the person doing it is trained in doing it, which I am not. I was speaking as if I were a trained bouncer and not just some muscle bound yahoo.

I would never drag a woman by the hair. If I could do that I could just as easily pull her by the arms, or pick her up and sling her over my shoulder.

There is never a good reason to drag a woman by the hair across a floor!

Holy. Fucking. Shit. Ya ninny!

 

[Jarhyn]

I still think most of this is wrong headed, Tom.

Personally, if someone needed to be incapacitated, I would try a choke hold. The person is restrained and rendered unconscious, if done right. If a bouncer can overcome someone well enough to drag them by the hair, then they can put them in a choke hold.

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

If I were the bar owner, I would fire the bouncer.

If I were a bar owner, I would hire bouncers who could keep their head and remove people in the most efficient way possible.

Dragging by the hair would never be excusable, in any situation.

And I think this particular bouncer probably did what she did as a way to get instantly famous. It's open season on anti maskers, and she knew that people would not condemn her action, but celebrate it. She most certainly did not do it because it was the best option, because it would never be the best option, plain and simple.

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

So, instead of a hair drag, you would do something potentially LETHAL?

LOL, what a fucking load of shit.

Baww all you want over "dehumanizing".

Being knocked unconscious by any means is SUPER BAD for you. Like really really bad.

I would only do it if the person were causing a real immediate threat, as in right about to actually physically attack an innocent. And this is presuming the person doing it is trained in doing it, which I am not. I was speaking as if I were a trained bouncer and not just some muscle bound yahoo.

I would never drag a woman by the hair. If I could do that I could just as easily pull her by the arms, or pick her up and sling her over my shoulder.

There is never a good reason to drag a woman by the hair across a floor!

Holy. Fucking. Shit. Ya ninny!

You are clearly NOT a trained bouncer. Or a trained fighter. Of any kind.

Choke holds are as bad as you are pants-on-fire claiming hair dragging is.

If you were a bouncer next to me, and you could either hair drag or choke hold someone and you choked them, I would hair drag you out and kick you out of the bar.

I would have to succeed at a will save to not kick you in the head afterwards. I would probably succeed in not kicking you. Maybe 90% odds.

 

[Gospel]

Yeah, chokeholds have actual fatalities. I haven't heard of anyone dying from hair dragging unless you count hair dragging them off the top of a skyscraper.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

So anyone who's judging the bouncer right now- how do you know they don't have family members/friends who are in the hospital because of Covid? How do you know their family members/friends haven't died of Covid? You really don't. Perhaps that could be motivating them to take such a drastic action. You don't know.

 

[Gospel]

So anyone who's judging the bouncer right now- how do you know they don't have family members/friends who are in the hospital because of Covid? How do you know their family members/friends haven't died of Covid? You really don't. Perhaps that could be motivating them to take such a drastic action. You don't know.

Don't matter to me. There was two bouncers in the footage, hair dragging was not needed.

 

[Jarhyn]

So anyone who's judging the bouncer right now- how do you know they don't have family members/friends who are in the hospital because of Covid? How do you know their family members/friends haven't died of Covid? You really don't. Perhaps that could be motivating them to take such a drastic action. You don't know.

That doesn't impact my view on whether the behavior was acceptable.

Her fear and stress and trauma does not justify bad behavior any more than the Karen's experience or closely held beliefs justify her not wearing a mask.

The point is that this is a question of whether more than just the Karen is awful.

As I've said, there are plenty of situations where hair dragging is going to yield the best outcome.

As to whether it was here, possibly it was not the best option, given the availability of additional bouncers and backup in subdual.