Explaining Privilege: It may not be what you think.

[Loren Pechtel]

You're assuming the discrimination is real and on a big enough scale to matter.

I have a very simple response for this.

You are assuming that the discrimination that you have never personally experienced is not real and doesn't matter.

You're a blind man insisting that purple doesn't exist.

You missed an important qualifier: "on a big enough scale to matter".

Of course there's discrimination. We will never be free of it. The issue is whether it's enough to hold people back. The stats do not seem to support that.

 

[Shadowy Man]

You're assuming the discrimination is real and on a big enough scale to matter.

I have a very simple response for this.

You are assuming that the discrimination that you have never personally experienced is not real and doesn't matter.

You're a blind man insisting that purple doesn't exist.

You missed an important qualifier: "on a big enough scale to matter".

Of course there's discrimination. We will never be free of it. The issue is whether it's enough to hold people back. The stats do not seem to support that.

Therefore if a minority doesn’t succeed where a white male does it is only their own fault for not trying hard enough?

 

[Toni]

You're assuming the discrimination is real and on a big enough scale to matter.

I have a very simple response for this.

You are assuming that the discrimination that you have never personally experienced is not real and doesn't matter.

You're a blind man insisting that purple doesn't exist.

You missed an important qualifier: "on a big enough scale to matter".

Of course there's discrimination. We will never be free of it. The issue is whether it's enough to hold people back. The stats do not seem to support that.

It's definitely something that has held people back in the past AND IS HOLDING PEOPLE BACK TODAY.

 

[laughing dog]

You're assuming the discrimination is real and on a big enough scale to matter.

I have a very simple response for this.

You are assuming that the discrimination that you have never personally experienced is not real and doesn't matter.

You're a blind man insisting that purple doesn't exist.

You missed an important qualifier: "on a big enough scale to matter".

Matter to whom?

 

[Trausti]

You missed an important qualifier: "on a big enough scale to matter".

Of course there's discrimination. We will never be free of it. The issue is whether it's enough to hold people back. The stats do not seem to support that.

It's definitely something that has held people back in the past AND IS HOLDING PEOPLE BACK TODAY.

Especially if you're Asian or White applying to Harvard.

 

[Toni]

You missed an important qualifier: "on a big enough scale to matter".

Of course there's discrimination. We will never be free of it. The issue is whether it's enough to hold people back. The stats do not seem to support that.

It's definitely something that has held people back in the past AND IS HOLDING PEOPLE BACK TODAY.

Especially if you're Asian or White applying to Harvard.

Sure. The two groups which comprise the majority of students at Harvard are being held back. Because Harvard is the only university to offer high quality high demand degrees and if you don’t get into Harvard and you are white or Asian, your life just isn’t with living because you’re going to end up working at McDonalds.

 

[Trausti]

Especially if you're Asian or White applying to Harvard.

Sure. The two groups which comprise the majority of students at Harvard are being held back. Because Harvard is the only university to offer high quality high demand degrees and if you don’t get into Harvard and you are white or Asian, your life just isn’t with living because you’re going to end up working at McDonalds.

Oh, so systemic racial discrimination is okay? So hard to keep up.

 

[Metaphor]

Sure. The two groups which comprise the majority of students at Harvard are being held back.

Yes.

Because Harvard is the only university to offer high quality high demand degrees

No. Other elite universities are also in high demand, and some of them may also systemically discriminate against whites and Asians in the same way that Harvard does

and if you don’t get into Harvard and you are white or Asian, your life just isn’t with living because you’re going to end up working at McDonalds.

It beggars belief that, if Harvard were instead discriminating against black applicants, you'd utter a similar sentence, but substituting 'white or Asian' for 'black'.

 

[Toni]

Yes.



No. Other elite universities are also in high demand, and some of them may also systemically discriminate against whites and Asians in the same way that Harvard does

and if you don’t get into Harvard and you are white or Asian, your life just isn’t with living because you’re going to end up working at McDonalds.

It beggars belief that, if Harvard were instead discriminating against black applicants, you'd utter a similar sentence, but substituting 'white or Asian' for 'black'.

Harvard does discriminate against black students.

I understand that it is difficult to impossible for you and those of your ilk to comprehend that not every slot at Harvard or other elite universities are filled by white or Asian students or that any black or Hispanic or Native American or Pacific Islander student actually was admitted on their qualifications. But that is your problem to work on, not mine.

 

[Metaphor]

I understand that it is difficult to impossible for you and those of your ilk to comprehend that not every slot at Harvard or other elite universities are filled by white or Asian students or that any black or Hispanic or Native American or Pacific Islander student actually was admitted on their qualifications.

I did not say that and I don't believe it.

But that is your problem to work on, not mine.

Let's keep your misrepresentations of me and my position on this going for a decade, Toni. Such fun!

 

[Metaphor]

Harvard does discriminate against black students.

No, it does not. Based on academic aptitude and achievement, it favours black students and discriminates against white and Asian students.

Unless--and I cannot believe you would be playing this bait and switch equivocation game and I hope you are not--you mean that of all the black applicants to Harvard, some are admitted and some are turned down, so that Harvard has 'discriminated' by choosing some black students over other black students.

 

[Trausti]

"Privilege"

A review of SAT and ACT standardized test scores among students in a recent class at the nation’s
200 most selective colleges finds that if all students were admitted solely on the basis of their test
scores and no new seats were added, 53 percent of incoming students at the nation’s most selective
colleges would no longer be attending (Figure 1). These students had median test scores that were
110 points below the median of all students at selective colleges (1140, compared to 1250). More than
half of the students who would be ousted are affluent students—from families in the top quartile of
socioeconomic status (SES)

If those students were ousted and replaced by applicants with higher test scores, however, the student
bodies of America’s most selective colleges would become even more aristocratic. Now, 60 percent
of incoming freshmen at selective colleges are from the top quartile of family SES, but that would
increase to 63 percent if students were admitted based on standardized test scores alone.

In addition to having more affluent students, selective colleges would become notably less racially
diverse. The White enrollment would grow by about 14 percent. Meanwhile, the combined Black and
Latino enrollment at selective colleges would be reduced by 43 percent, and Asian enrollment would
decline as well—by about 9 percent.

SAT Only Admission

 

[Toni]

Harvard does discriminate against black students.

No, it does not. Based on academic aptitude and achievement, it favours black students and discriminates against white and Asian students.

Unless--and I cannot believe you would be playing this bait and switch equivocation game and I hope you are not--you mean that of all the black applicants to Harvard, some are admitted and some are turned down, so that Harvard has 'discriminated' by choosing some black students over other black students.

There is significant discrimination against black students on Harvard's campus and on most university campuses. There is discrimination against black students in the admissions process at many universities although it is less intentional now compared with in the past.

I'm sorry that you still are not able to grasp US university admissions but again, that's not my problem. It's not even your problem as you are not seeking admissions to any university in the US as far as I know.

 

[Metaphor]

There is significant discrimination against black students on Harvard's campus and on most university campuses.

How does Harvard discriminate against black students? Can you describe an instance of this discrimination?

There is discrimination against black students in the admissions process at many universities although it is less intentional now compared with in the past.

Please describe an instance of this alleged discrimination, for those of us who are ignorant of such discrimination.

I'm sorry that you still are not able to grasp US university admissions but again, that's not my problem. It's not even your problem as you are not seeking admissions to any university in the US as far as I know.

Are you seeking admission to any university in the US? Could you any more plainly be trying to deflect debate by screeching "stay in your lane"?

 

[southernhybrid]

While it appears as if we've gone way off of the topic again, I think that SAT scores are bullshit and should be ended. For example, I scored higher than some of my straight A friends when I was in high school, simply because I'm good at taking that type of test. My son on the other hand had terrible SAT scores, yet he was able to graduate with honors when he finished his BS in Computer Science, a field that I would never have been able to understand well enough to finish a degree.

Wealthy people spend lots of money helping their children prepare for SATs and they frequently take them several times. until they get higher schools. SAT scores are often meaningless when it comes to who will do well in college and who will drop out or fail. They are a relic of the past, imnsho.

Success in college has a lot to do with perseverance and discipline. My husband, who is very smart and had good SAT scores flunked out of college on his first attempt. He partied too much and didn't know what direction he wanted to take. Luckily, I didn't know him during those years. After working for a year or two, he returned to school and completed a degree in engineering, a field that. he loved.

 

[Gospel]

AthenaAwakened, I hope you really like tea; cause you're gonna need a whole lot of it.

 

[thebeave]

While it appears as if we've gone way off of the topic again, I think that SAT scores are bullshit and should be ended. For example, I scored higher than some of my straight A friends when I was in high school, simply because I'm good at taking that type of test. My son on the other hand had terrible SAT scores, yet he was able to graduate with honors when he finished his BS in Computer Science, a field that I would never have been able to understand well enough to finish a degree.

Wealthy people spend lots of money helping their children prepare for SATs and they frequently take them several times. until they get higher schools. SAT scores are often meaningless when it comes to who will do well in college and who will drop out or fail. They are a relic of the past, imnsho.

Success in college has a lot to do with perseverance and discipline. My husband, who is very smart and had good SAT scores flunked out of college on his first attempt. He partied too much and didn't know what direction he wanted to take. Luckily, I didn't know him during those years. After working for a year or two, he returned to school and completed a degree in engineering, a field that. he loved.

College admissions criteria shouldn't be made based on some random peoples' personal anecdotes. If the SAT goes away, then you'll have to assess academic achievement based solely on grades. Will that help give minorities a better shot at getting into elite colleges? I don't see how. Or maybe it should come down to how touching of an essay you write describing how many old people you help cross the street in your spare time and kittens you've rescued.

 

[Toni]

While it appears as if we've gone way off of the topic again, I think that SAT scores are bullshit and should be ended. For example, I scored higher than some of my straight A friends when I was in high school, simply because I'm good at taking that type of test. My son on the other hand had terrible SAT scores, yet he was able to graduate with honors when he finished his BS in Computer Science, a field that I would never have been able to understand well enough to finish a degree.

Wealthy people spend lots of money helping their children prepare for SATs and they frequently take them several times. until they get higher schools. SAT scores are often meaningless when it comes to who will do well in college and who will drop out or fail. They are a relic of the past, imnsho.

Success in college has a lot to do with perseverance and discipline. My husband, who is very smart and had good SAT scores flunked out of college on his first attempt. He partied too much and didn't know what direction he wanted to take. Luckily, I didn't know him during those years. After working for a year or two, he returned to school and completed a degree in engineering, a field that. he loved.

College admissions criteria shouldn't be made based on some random peoples' personal anecdotes. If the SAT goes away, then you'll have to assess academic achievement based solely on grades. Will that help give minorities a better shot at getting into elite colleges? I don't see how. Or maybe it should come down to how touching of an essay you write describing how many old people you help cross the street in your spare time and kittens you've rescued.

I haven’t read much about eliminating the ACTs which are also used in admissions. In fact, the SAT is primarily used for east coast universities. Some use both and some refer one over the other.

There is a recent move to eliminate reliance on SATs (maybe also ACTs???) in admissions. There is a plethora of articles about changing admissions processes to be found on your search engine of choice.

 

[Shadowy Man]

While it appears as if we've gone way off of the topic again, I think that SAT scores are bullshit and should be ended. For example, I scored higher than some of my straight A friends when I was in high school, simply because I'm good at taking that type of test. My son on the other hand had terrible SAT scores, yet he was able to graduate with honors when he finished his BS in Computer Science, a field that I would never have been able to understand well enough to finish a degree.

Wealthy people spend lots of money helping their children prepare for SATs and they frequently take them several times. until they get higher schools. SAT scores are often meaningless when it comes to who will do well in college and who will drop out or fail. They are a relic of the past, imnsho.

Success in college has a lot to do with perseverance and discipline. My husband, who is very smart and had good SAT scores flunked out of college on his first attempt. He partied too much and didn't know what direction he wanted to take. Luckily, I didn't know him during those years. After working for a year or two, he returned to school and completed a degree in engineering, a field that. he loved.

College admissions criteria shouldn't be made based on some random peoples' personal anecdotes. If the SAT goes away, then you'll have to assess academic achievement based solely on grades. Will that help give minorities a better shot at getting into elite colleges? I don't see how. Or maybe it should come down to how touching of an essay you write describing how many old people you help cross the street in your spare time and kittens you've rescued.

Shouldn’t a private university get to pick what its criteria are for entry? If they think they’d like to have students with characteristics other than high SAT scores, isn’t that their prerogative? If you don’t like it you can choose a different college. Or spend more time saving kittens.

 

[Trausti]

While it appears as if we've gone way off of the topic again, I think that SAT scores are bullshit and should be ended. For example, I scored higher than some of my straight A friends when I was in high school, simply because I'm good at taking that type of test. My son on the other hand had terrible SAT scores, yet he was able to graduate with honors when he finished his BS in Computer Science, a field that I would never have been able to understand well enough to finish a degree.

Wealthy people spend lots of money helping their children prepare for SATs and they frequently take them several times. until they get higher schools. SAT scores are often meaningless when it comes to who will do well in college and who will drop out or fail. They are a relic of the past, imnsho.

Success in college has a lot to do with perseverance and discipline. My husband, who is very smart and had good SAT scores flunked out of college on his first attempt. He partied too much and didn't know what direction he wanted to take. Luckily, I didn't know him during those years. After working for a year or two, he returned to school and completed a degree in engineering, a field that. he loved.

College admissions criteria shouldn't be made based on some random peoples' personal anecdotes. If the SAT goes away, then you'll have to assess academic achievement based solely on grades. Will that help give minorities a better shot at getting into elite colleges? I don't see how. Or maybe it should come down to how touching of an essay you write describing how many old people you help cross the street in your spare time and kittens you've rescued.

Shouldn’t a private university get to pick what its criteria are for entry? If they think they’d like to have students with characteristics other than high SAT scores, isn’t that their prerogative? If you don’t like it you can choose a different college. Or spend more time saving kittens.

If a private university takes public money, it’s held to the same standard as a public university. Other criteria are fine. The issue is whether a person’s skin color should be a criterion. If you feel racial discrimination is okay, just say so.