Covid vaccinatin passports

[DrZoidberg]

Israel has introduced "green passports". If you can prove you have been vaccinated you're allowed to go to bars and gyms etc. I have ethical problems with this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aelis-to-enjoy-bars-and-hotels-with-green-pas

First I'll start off by saying that I think all anti-vaxxers are idiots and that anybody with any sense will get vaccinated.

But I'm also a defender of personal rights. I don't want anybody forced or pressured into getting the vaccine. This Israeli vaccination passport is basically bullying people into getting vaccinated. I have a problem with that.

I also react when there's talk of introducing the same in Europe.

There's also the added problem of these passports are going to get faked in no time. They will create a black market for the passports. And, inevitably, the vulnerable, who should be first in line, will get shunted to the back of the line. When there's strong incentives to get something, you can bet yourself, that the rich and powerful will get to the front of the line.

Thoughts? Are you for or against?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Israel has introduced "green passports". If you can prove you have been vaccinated you're allowed to go to bars and gyms etc. I have ethical problems with this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aelis-to-enjoy-bars-and-hotels-with-green-pas

First I'll start off by saying that I think all anti-vaxxers are idiots and that anybody with any sense will get vaccinated.

But I'm also a defender of personal rights. I don't want anybody forced or pressured into getting the vaccine. This Israeli vaccination passport is basically bullying people into getting vaccinated. I have a problem with that.

I also react when there's talk of introducing the same in Europe.

There's also the added problem of these passports are going to get faked in no time. They will create a black market for the passports. And, inevitably, the vulnerable, who should be first in line, will get shunted to the back of the line. When there's strong incentives to get something, you can bet yourself, that the rich and powerful will get to the front of the line.

Thoughts? Are you for or against?

I'm also all for personal rights also -until the point where they threaten me or my family. I have a daughter with health issues. I don't want a non-vaccinated person within a 100 feet of her. So, I'm very much for Israel's law. No-vaxers should be shunned.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Israel has introduced "green passports". If you can prove you have been vaccinated you're allowed to go to bars and gyms etc. I have ethical problems with this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aelis-to-enjoy-bars-and-hotels-with-green-pas

First I'll start off by saying that I think all anti-vaxxers are idiots and that anybody with any sense will get vaccinated.

But I'm also a defender of personal rights. I don't want anybody forced or pressured into getting the vaccine. This Israeli vaccination passport is basically bullying people into getting vaccinated. I have a problem with that.

I also react when there's talk of introducing the same in Europe.

There's also the added problem of these passports are going to get faked in no time. They will create a black market for the passports. And, inevitably, the vulnerable, who should be first in line, will get shunted to the back of the line. When there's strong incentives to get something, you can bet yourself, that the rich and powerful will get to the front of the line.

Thoughts? Are you for or against?

I'm also all for personal rights also -until the point where they threaten me or my family. I have a daughter with health issues. I don't want a non-vaccinated person within a 100 feet of her. So, I'm very much for Israel's law. No-vaxers should be shunned.

What's preventing your daughter from getting vaccinated? Other than being in line for it and she hasn't had her turn yet.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Israel has introduced "green passports". If you can prove you have been vaccinated you're allowed to go to bars and gyms etc. I have ethical problems with this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aelis-to-enjoy-bars-and-hotels-with-green-pas

First I'll start off by saying that I think all anti-vaxxers are idiots and that anybody with any sense will get vaccinated.

But I'm also a defender of personal rights. I don't want anybody forced or pressured into getting the vaccine. This Israeli vaccination passport is basically bullying people into getting vaccinated. I have a problem with that.

I also react when there's talk of introducing the same in Europe.

There's also the added problem of these passports are going to get faked in no time. They will create a black market for the passports. And, inevitably, the vulnerable, who should be first in line, will get shunted to the back of the line. When there's strong incentives to get something, you can bet yourself, that the rich and powerful will get to the front of the line.

Thoughts? Are you for or against?

I'm also all for personal rights also -until the point where they threaten me or my family. I have a daughter with health issues. I don't want a non-vaccinated person within a 100 feet of her. So, I'm very much for Israel's law. No-vaxers should be shunned.

What's preventing your daughter from getting vaccinated? Other than being in line for it and she hasn't had her turn yet.

Well, luckily she can get a vaccine, when it becomes available for her. However, there are some people with medical problems that don't allow them to receive vaccines. Secondly, a certain amount of vaccines simply don't work - they fail. This is a very small percentage. But it is real. None of us is safe until we reach herd immunity. And anyone refusing to take the vaccine for non-medical reasons is harming our ability to acheive herd immunity. If we don't get to herd immunity, our economy will be wrecked and more people will needlessly die.

 

[DrZoidberg]

What's preventing your daughter from getting vaccinated? Other than being in line for it and she hasn't had her turn yet.

Well, luckily she can get a vaccine, when it becomes available for her. However, there are some people with medical problems that don't allow them to receive vaccines. Secondly, a certain amount of vaccines simply don't work - they fail. This is a very small percentage. But it is real. None of us is safe until we reach herd immunity. And anyone refusing to take the vaccine for non-medical reasons is harming our ability to acheive herd immunity. If we don't get to herd immunity, our economy will be wrecked and more people will needlessly die.

Sure. But what if you and me are wrong? What if not taking the vaccine ends up being the right thing to do? I'm a big fan of everybody doing their homework the best they can and reaching their own conclusions on how to behave. I'm against forcing a medical procedure on anybody, no matter how much they may need it.

 

[TSwizzle]

Israel has introduced "green passports". If you can prove you have been vaccinated you're allowed to go to bars and gyms etc. I have ethical problems with this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aelis-to-enjoy-bars-and-hotels-with-green-pas

First I'll start off by saying that I think all anti-vaxxers are idiots and that anybody with any sense will get vaccinated.

But I'm also a defender of personal rights. I don't want anybody forced or pressured into getting the vaccine. This Israeli vaccination passport is basically bullying people into getting vaccinated. I have a problem with that.

I also react when there's talk of introducing the same in Europe.

There's also the added problem of these passports are going to get faked in no time. They will create a black market for the passports. And, inevitably, the vulnerable, who should be first in line, will get shunted to the back of the line. When there's strong incentives to get something, you can bet yourself, that the rich and powerful will get to the front of the line.

Thoughts? Are you for or against?

Generally against. I think most people travelling will do the right thing and get vaccinated so a vaccination passport is probably unnecessary.

 

[Patooka]

Israel's strategy is a half measure. Half measures is why the pandemic is still fucking going. The more convoluted a process is (who is allowed to go where, what each passport means, how many people in a public place etc), the more likely things will fall through the cracks and we are right back where we start. And Harry Bosch hit the nail on the head. You forfeit your personal rights when you put someone else at risk. That's why you don't have the personal right to drink a bottle of rum and then go out for a drive.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What's preventing your daughter from getting vaccinated? Other than being in line for it and she hasn't had her turn yet.

Well, luckily she can get a vaccine, when it becomes available for her. However, there are some people with medical problems that don't allow them to receive vaccines. Secondly, a certain amount of vaccines simply don't work - they fail. This is a very small percentage. But it is real. None of us is safe until we reach herd immunity. And anyone refusing to take the vaccine for non-medical reasons is harming our ability to acheive herd immunity. If we don't get to herd immunity, our economy will be wrecked and more people will needlessly die.

Sure. But what if you and me are wrong?

Harry Bosch didn't actually make with any research or come to a scientific conclusion. That'd be researchers and professionals that'd be wrong, not Harry Bosch. And the researchers and professionals have a bit more experience and knowledge to make a decision to hang a hat on, and are definitely worth listening to.

What if not taking the vaccine ends up being the right thing to do? I'm a big fan of everybody doing their homework the best they can and reaching their own conclusions on how to behave.

To do that homework correctly would require a specialized degree, and that isn't happening. Every stupid idiot that refuses to get vaccinated for other diseases because of *insert stupid ignorant ass reason* (this excludes those that legitimately can't) get "lucky" because of herd immunity. They benefit from every one else getting the vaccine. But if enough don't, then their luck runs out and they start paying the price, and risk the health and lives of those that have enough medical problems as it is!

Sadly, with Covid-19, the idiots usually aren't the ones dying, they just spread it.

I'm against forcing a medical procedure on anybody, no matter how much they may need it.

That's great. I'm against people having to suffer because of idiots. We have killed Polio among a bunch of other diseases because the greater good mattered more than someone's stupid gut and what a fucking idiot MTV VJ says. Shit got too good and people are overthinking an incredibly easy decision to make.

Less disease, suffering, and death?

YES! 1,000 FUCKING YES'S!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has introduced "green passports". If you can prove you have been vaccinated you're allowed to go to bars and gyms etc. I have ethical problems with this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aelis-to-enjoy-bars-and-hotels-with-green-pas

First I'll start off by saying that I think all anti-vaxxers are idiots and that anybody with any sense will get vaccinated.

But I'm also a defender of personal rights. I don't want anybody forced or pressured into getting the vaccine. This Israeli vaccination passport is basically bullying people into getting vaccinated. I have a problem with that.

I also react when there's talk of introducing the same in Europe.

There's also the added problem of these passports are going to get faked in no time. They will create a black market for the passports. And, inevitably, the vulnerable, who should be first in line, will get shunted to the back of the line. When there's strong incentives to get something, you can bet yourself, that the rich and powerful will get to the front of the line.

Thoughts? Are you for or against?

I'm also all for personal rights also -until the point where they threaten me or my family. I have a daughter with health issues. I don't want a non-vaccinated person within a 100 feet of her. So, I'm very much for Israel's law. No-vaxers should be shunned.

Exactly. I have no problem with plague rats being shunned.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What's preventing your daughter from getting vaccinated? Other than being in line for it and she hasn't had her turn yet.

Well, luckily she can get a vaccine, when it becomes available for her. However, there are some people with medical problems that don't allow them to receive vaccines. Secondly, a certain amount of vaccines simply don't work - they fail. This is a very small percentage. But it is real. None of us is safe until we reach herd immunity. And anyone refusing to take the vaccine for non-medical reasons is harming our ability to acheive herd immunity. If we don't get to herd immunity, our economy will be wrecked and more people will needlessly die.

Sure. But what if you and me are wrong? What if not taking the vaccine ends up being the right thing to do? I'm a big fan of everybody doing their homework the best they can and reaching their own conclusions on how to behave. I'm against forcing a medical procedure on anybody, no matter how much they may need it.

Very, very few people can actually do their own homework on something like this. It's really a matter of deciding who to listen to, not a matter of doing homework. And there's a large component of deliberate disinformation behind the anti-vax movement.

 

[Politesse]

Israel has introduced "green passports". If you can prove you have been vaccinated you're allowed to go to bars and gyms etc. I have ethical problems with this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aelis-to-enjoy-bars-and-hotels-with-green-pas

First I'll start off by saying that I think all anti-vaxxers are idiots and that anybody with any sense will get vaccinated.

But I'm also a defender of personal rights. I don't want anybody forced or pressured into getting the vaccine. This Israeli vaccination passport is basically bullying people into getting vaccinated. I have a problem with that.

I also react when there's talk of introducing the same in Europe.

There's also the added problem of these passports are going to get faked in no time. They will create a black market for the passports. And, inevitably, the vulnerable, who should be first in line, will get shunted to the back of the line. When there's strong incentives to get something, you can bet yourself, that the rich and powerful will get to the front of the line.

Thoughts? Are you for or against?

I would agree if the activities limited by non-vaccination were essential to life and wellbeing. But I don't see not allowing people into high-risk recreational activities as bullying.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm against forcing a medical procedure on anybody, no matter how much they may need it.

That's great. I'm against people having to suffer because of idiots. We have killed Polio among a bunch of other diseases because the greater good mattered more than someone's stupid gut and what a fucking idiot MTV VJ says. Shit got too good and people are overthinking an incredibly easy decision to make.

Less disease, suffering, and death?

YES! 1,000 FUCKING YES'S!

I think what separates us is that I think that personal rights are inviolable. Historically, whenever we've allowed the government to ignore personal rights it's ended badly. It's a slippery slope. We have a history of the scientific community being dead sure about something which ended up not being correct. I'm thinking about when we thought that poverty was a result of psychological flaws and we thought it was a stellar idea to make large numbers of these impoverished women sterile. Or the Tuskegee study. It's not like these examples are hypothetical. They all stem from the idea that some people, and in extension, some people's beliefs, can be ignored. This slippery slope is real.

I think it changes us. Once we start overruling those we think are stupid, and do things to them against their wishes, "for their own good" we will stop valuing human life as sacred.

I think we're better served by upping our persuasion game. If getting vaccinated obviously is so superior then how the fuck can be fail so badly in communicating it? I think there's a snobbery among the educated middle-class which I think is harming our ability to communicate with those less educated.

On Facebook I've read so many accounts of anti-vaxxers talking about how badly they have reacted from taking vaccines in the past. Clear examples of people confusing causation with correlation. This shit isn't hard to explain. Yet, we've failed their entire lives.

To sum up, persuasion is always better than force. If we can't persuade we should examine why we can't persuade and try harder, rather than going nuclear.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Exactly. I have no problem with plague rats being shunned.

This is the shit I'm talking about. We're far too good at dehumanising fellow humans we deem as the out-group. It happens quickly and can have disastrous consequences.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Israel has introduced "green passports". If you can prove you have been vaccinated you're allowed to go to bars and gyms etc. I have ethical problems with this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aelis-to-enjoy-bars-and-hotels-with-green-pas

First I'll start off by saying that I think all anti-vaxxers are idiots and that anybody with any sense will get vaccinated.

But I'm also a defender of personal rights. I don't want anybody forced or pressured into getting the vaccine. This Israeli vaccination passport is basically bullying people into getting vaccinated. I have a problem with that.

I also react when there's talk of introducing the same in Europe.

There's also the added problem of these passports are going to get faked in no time. They will create a black market for the passports. And, inevitably, the vulnerable, who should be first in line, will get shunted to the back of the line. When there's strong incentives to get something, you can bet yourself, that the rich and powerful will get to the front of the line.

Thoughts? Are you for or against?

I would agree if the activities limited by non-vaccination were essential to life and wellbeing. But I don't see not allowing people into high-risk recreational activities as bullying.

You are addressing a world desperate for social contact, and suffering as a result. In the current situation, how could it not be bullying?

 

[Politesse]

Israel has introduced "green passports". If you can prove you have been vaccinated you're allowed to go to bars and gyms etc. I have ethical problems with this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...aelis-to-enjoy-bars-and-hotels-with-green-pas

First I'll start off by saying that I think all anti-vaxxers are idiots and that anybody with any sense will get vaccinated.

But I'm also a defender of personal rights. I don't want anybody forced or pressured into getting the vaccine. This Israeli vaccination passport is basically bullying people into getting vaccinated. I have a problem with that.

I also react when there's talk of introducing the same in Europe.

There's also the added problem of these passports are going to get faked in no time. They will create a black market for the passports. And, inevitably, the vulnerable, who should be first in line, will get shunted to the back of the line. When there's strong incentives to get something, you can bet yourself, that the rich and powerful will get to the front of the line.

Thoughts? Are you for or against?

I would agree if the activities limited by non-vaccination were essential to life and wellbeing. But I don't see not allowing people into high-risk recreational activities as bullying.

You are addressing a world desperate for social contact, and suffering as a result. In the current situation, how could it not be bullying?

Because both the suffering and the cure are entirely voluntary.

If you want to take a stance against vaccines, you certainly have a right to do so. But not to then put other people at risk just so you can have fun. If you're going to take a noble stand, take a noble stand. I don't see this as any different than the other vaccinations I already take so I can work in a public university. I have every right to refuse those. And they have every right to terminate my employment if I do. What's new about this?

 

[DrZoidberg]

You are addressing a world desperate for social contact, and suffering as a result. In the current situation, how could it not be bullying?

Because both the suffering and the cure are entirely voluntary.

If you want to take a stance against vaccines, you certainly have a right to do so. But not to then put other people at risk just so you can have fun. If you're going to take a noble stand, take a noble stand. I don't see this as any different than the other vaccinations I already take so I can work in a public university. I have every right to refuse those. And they have every right to terminate my employment if I do. What's new about this?

That's a magicians choice. "Hey, you are free to do this or not. If you don't you will be shunned, slip further into insanity, and your life ruined. But it's your choice. No pressure. Take all the time you need to chose".

Don't pretend not getting vaccinated is reasonable in your given scenario.

If the cost of non-compliance is extremely high, it's not a choice. And pretending it is is disingenuous.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I just don't want to live in a society where we bully normal people for making choices they are making on the best available evidence they've taken part of. We might curse and swear about their idiocy all we want, but they've got to be allowed to make that choice for themselves.

We have no problems thinking this way when it comes to democracy and voting. We understand the concept. It's just that when it comes to vaccines are collective brains seems to go out the window.

 

[bilby]

There's no value in uninformed opinions.

In the modern world, many people are incapable of forming informed opinions on most subjects, and EVERYONE is incapable of forming informed opinions on some important questions.

Democracy is for matters of pure opinion. Freedom is for the informed - people who choose to be uninformed or who are fooled into being misinformed should be ignored in favour of the opinions of experts.

Sometimes experts are wrong; But almost always idiots are wrong, so that's no reason to defend the rights of idiots to act on their poorly informed opinions.

Freedom is a myth. Nobody's free from government intervention for their own good; And nor should they be.

If you think the experts are wrong, your recourse is to become an expert, and demonstrate their error. Until and unless you have done so, sit down, shut up, and accept the consequences of your decisions. Get vaccinated, or get your mobility curtailed. Those are the only options conversant with your not being allowed to cause avoidable harm to third parties who do not consent to your assault on their health.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There's no value in uninformed opinions.

In the modern world, many people are incapable of forming informed opinions on most subjects, and EVERYONE is incapable of forming informed opinions on some important questions.

Democracy is for matters of pure opinion. Freedom is for the informed - people who choose to be uninformed or who are fooled into being misinformed should be ignored in favour of the opinions of experts.

Sometimes experts are wrong; But almost always idiots are wrong, so that's no reason to defend the rights of idiots to act on their poorly informed opinions.

Freedom is a myth. Nobody's free from government intervention for their own good; And nor should they be.

If you think the experts are wrong, your recourse is to become an expert, and demonstrate their error. Until and unless you have done so, sit down, shut up, and accept the consequences of your decisions. Get vaccinated, or get your mobility curtailed. Those are the only options conversant with your not being allowed to cause avoidable harm to third parties who do not consent to your assault on their health.

Up until the American culture wars and the Intelligent Design debate of the 90'ies scientists were a pretty insular bunch. It was mostly just social scientists who bothered to communicate with the "masses". After the Intelligent Design debate the scientific community opened up and started working more on their skills of rhetoric and evangelizing to the public. Now it's seen as a duty of scientists and an integral part of the job. It was a substantial shift in culture, away from just educating students, to educating the world.

I want to see something similar when it comes to vaccination education.

edit: BTW, I'm aware this shift in culture has already happened. But it's not really funded. Science education of the public is well funded. But considering how important it is, I want to see more. Until science communication has more funding than sports I'd say increase the funding. I'm not sure exactly how this should be financed. But if we can find money to something as pointless as sports, I think we can find money for this.

 

[TV and credit cards]

If the concern is a slippery slope then it is the duty of government to erect barriers to prevent this from happening. Empowering ignorance is not the answer. With freedom comes the responsibility to know what decisions we should make and when to trust the guidance of others. When an individual’s actions pose a threat to society, measured governance is appropriate.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm against forcing a medical procedure on anybody, no matter how much they may need it.

That's great. I'm against people having to suffer because of idiots. We have killed Polio among a bunch of other diseases because the greater good mattered more than someone's stupid gut and what a fucking idiot MTV VJ says. Shit got too good and people are overthinking an incredibly easy decision to make.

Less disease, suffering, and death?

YES! 1,000 FUCKING YES'S!

I think what separates us is that I think that personal rights are inviolable. Historically, whenever we've allowed the government to ignore personal rights it's ended badly. It's a slippery slope. We have a history of the scientific community being dead sure about something which ended up not being correct. I'm thinking about when we thought that poverty was a result of psychological flaws and we thought it was a stellar idea to make large numbers of these impoverished women sterile. Or the Tuskegee study. It's not like these examples are hypothetical. They all stem from the idea that some people, and in extension, some people's beliefs, can be ignored. This slippery slope is real.

I think it changes us. Once we start overruling those we think are stupid, and do things to them against their wishes, "for their own good" we will stop valuing human life as sacred.

I think we're better served by upping our persuasion game. If getting vaccinated obviously is so superior then how the fuck can be fail so badly in communicating it? I think there's a snobbery among the educated middle-class which I think is harming our ability to communicate with those less educated.

On Facebook I've read so many accounts of anti-vaxxers talking about how badly they have reacted from taking vaccines in the past. Clear examples of people confusing causation with correlation. This shit isn't hard to explain. Yet, we've failed their entire lives.

To sum up, persuasion is always better than force. If we can't persuade we should examine why we can't persuade and try harder, rather than going nuclear.

That’s so pretty. We don’t have roadways without speed limits because humans as a whole can’t manage driving without rules and not kill themselves.

So “personal liberty” as an excuse to threaten the lives of others is really naive and weak.

We are a community, not a bunch of individuals on independent paths that don’t cross one another. Wanna be a hermit crab and live in a trailer down by the river, fine, you don’t need vaccination. You cross pollinate with the public? You already made your choice.