6:00pm Curfew for men

[Derec]

Bullshit. Society allows men and boys to rape girls and women and finds excuses to blame it on the women. As you do here.

No it doesn't. There are quite severe penalties our society imposes for rape of girls and women. Up to life in prison and also registering as a sex offender, which imposes severe restrictions on people even after they leave prison. Now of course, like all other crimes the state has to prove the rape occurred beyond a reasonable doubt. I know many feminists do not like that requirement.

Bullshit. One in four women are sexually assaulted by the time they reach 21. I was much younger than that the FIRST time I was sexually assaulted. My daughter was younger than 21 when she was sexually assaulted.

My sons were not sexually assaulted.

Arguementum ad exemplum is a fallacy. And why is sexual assault the only kind of assault that matters to you? 'When you consider all violent crime, men are victimized much more frequently than women.

Men need to start viewing and treating women as equals

So no opening doors for women, no "women and children first" and other chivalrous stuff, right?

and as equally entitled to walk the streets, enter establishments, live their lives without fear of being assaulted.

Again, women are far less likely than men to be victims of violent crime. So your whole premise is wrong because of your sexist bias that only violence against women matters.

 

[Derec]

Interesting. As so often happens in threads where rape or prostitution is discussed, it is indeed a feminist who brings up the fact that there are male prostitutes and male rape victims. Me. That’s who usually brings it up. As I did here in the post you quoted.

Yes, you always bring it up. Even though nobody disputes that.
You also want to deny adult humans (mostly women) the agency and the freedom to choose to engage in sex work. Instead, you want to lock up their customers (mostly men).

You pretend that all sex workers are victims even though that is not reality.

 

[Metaphor]

Bullshit. Society allows men and boys to rape girls and women and finds excuses to blame it on the women. As you do here.

Bull fucking shit. Society has made women safer than they've ever been, and if it were not for society, the violence against women would be far higher than it is. Nobody would be keeping violent males in check.

Don't ignore the first part: Is that what you want for your wife? Your mother? Your sisters? Your nieces? To have to live their lives being very, very very careful?

Why the fuck would you think I want that?

Bullshit. One in four women are sexually assaulted by the time they reach 21. I was much younger than that the FIRST time I was sexually assaulted. My daughter was younger than 21 when she was sexually assaulted.

I said 'attacked with violence', which includes all kinds of assault.

My sons were not sexually assaulted.

I did not claim they were. I said they were at higher risk of being attacked with violence, especially in the same situation you were worried for your daughter but not your sons: being out after dark.

I was physically attacked walking home from school a number of times in my life, by boys. That is no reason whatever to collectively punish all boys.

I have been harassed by a number of drug addicts, bother verbally and physically, in my daily commute to work. But I don't want to ban drug addicts from public life, even if it would benefit me.

Of COURSE it can be overcome. Men need to start viewing and treating women as equals and as equally entitled to walk the streets, enter establishments, live their lives without fear of being assaulted. Men need to step up.

Women are safer on the streets than men are. You are delusional.

As for women being physically weaker: Funny thing. I was much smaller than any of the guys who attacked me. I'm sure any and all of them could have bench pressed much more than I could. But I laid them out flat on the ground.

Good. Is that what you taught your sons, to defend themselves? Is that why you gave them different rules, because you had confidence in them that you didn't have in your daughter? What was wrong with you?

But never mind that: Aren't men supposed to look out for those weaker than themselves? Why aren't you?

People who are stronger ought look out for people who are weaker is probably a good general moral principle. That's why men have risked their lives, in enormous numbers, every day since time immemorial, to protect men, women, and children from aggressors and calamities. That's why most mothers would throw themselves in front of a bullet to protect their children.

But it does not follow that men ought voluntarily absent themselves from public life for the comfort of women, nor does it justify the State in curtailing the civil rights of half the population.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Interesting. As so often happens in threads where rape or prostitution is discussed, it is indeed a feminist who brings up the fact that there are male prostitutes and male rape victims. Me. That’s who usually brings it up. As I did here in the post you quoted.

So? The perpetrators of the violence against them are still men. So why did you bring it up? What's your point?

Male prostitutes are not seen as victims. Because they aren't. They rarely see themselves as it. It's a significant part of the gay world and it seems to work quite well for all involved. So it ruins the feminist idea that all prostitutes are victims. So criminalising any part of it is what leads to protecting violent perpetrators. But that doesn't stop feminists to insist it should be illegal to buy sex.

Its almost like they don't care about preventing violence against prostitutes, male or female.

I don’t know why you think women are incapable of acting as law enforcement officers. Women do it quite well.

What a pointless non sequitur comment. I also said that whether men stop male violence alone or together with women is of lesser importance. It looks like your prior comment was a set up for this reply. But then when I failed to write what you had hoped, you felt that your cool slam dunk comment was too good to waste, so you said it anyway and hoped I wouldn't notice.

I'm sorry you didn't get to feel clever

 

[Angra Mainyu]

What you are really saying is that it is just fine for girls to grow up being afraid.

Metaphor is not saying anything like that.

Yeah, he is.

And you are, too. It is perfectly acceptable to you that girls and women bear an extra burden. So that men don't have to inconvenience themselves enough to model respectful behavior towards women, to show that they are valued as fully as are men.

Because you don't.

No, that is not at all what I am saying, as a reader can see in my posts. There is nothing acceptable with the behavior of rapists, murderers, or for that matter robbers that restrict the freedom of other people, including both men and women. What you say has nothing to do with what I am saying, or what Metaphor is saying. There are risks that one should rationally take into consideration; whether has a moral obligation is another matter, and depends on the circumstances.

Assuming for the sake of the argument that those risks are higher for women, then they should take precautions that it is not the case men should take, and again given that assumption, if a woman asked me why she should take more precautions I would answer that that's because she is at a greater risk. In reality, the risks depend on the situation of each person. Sometimes, a woman faces greater risks than a man. Sometimes, it is the other way around (e.g., if the woman lives in a safe neighbourhood and the man in a dangerous one).

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Bullshit. Society allows men and boys to rape girls and women and finds excuses to blame it on the women. As you do here.

Why do you do that?
Do you not realize that the accusations you make have no relation whatsoever (not even a remote one) to the posts for which you accuse Metaphor and me?

I do not know who "society" is, but clearly Metaphor is not finding excuses or blaming women when men or boys rape them. I would suggest that you read the posts, with the intent of understanding their content, rather than with the intent of condemning the men in this thread who disagree with your views.

 

[Toni]

No it doesn't. There are quite severe penalties our society imposes for rape of girls and women. Up to life in prison and also registering as a sex offender, which imposes severe restrictions on people even after they leave prison. Now of course, like all other crimes the state has to prove the rape occurred beyond a reasonable doubt. I know many feminists do not like that requirement.

Bullshit. Rape and sexual assault are the only crimes where the victim is routinely blamed for her assault. THIS is what decent human beings object to.

Arguementum ad exemplum is a fallacy. And why is sexual assault the only kind of assault that matters to you? 'When you consider all violent crime, men are victimized much more frequently than women.

Rape and sexual assault are crimes which occur at any age, across all socioeconomic settings,

Men need to start viewing and treating women as equals

So no opening doors for women, no "women and children first" and other chivalrous stuff, right?

You could start by not equating women with children. The women and children first has never actually been practiced, outside of movies and novels. Opening doors? I'm probably a lot more likely to open a door for a man than you are for a woman. Door opening is common curtesy for anyone whose arms are occupied with child, packages, walker, cane, books, etc.

and as equally entitled to walk the streets, enter establishments, live their lives without fear of being assaulted.

Again, women are far less likely than men to be victims of violent crime. So your whole premise is wrong because of your sexist bias that only violence against women matters.

But WHICH men are more likely to be victimized by violent crime? And by whom?

 

[Toni]

Bullshit. Society allows men and boys to rape girls and women and finds excuses to blame it on the women. As you do here.

Why do you do that?
Do you not realize that the accusations you make have no relation whatsoever (not even a remote one) to the posts for which you accuse Metaphor and me?

I do not know who "society" is, but clearly Metaphor is not finding excuses or blaming women when men or boys rape them. I would suggest that you read the posts, with the intent of understanding their content, rather than with the intent of condemning the men in this thread who disagree with your views.

If you do not know who society is, why are you posting in this thread?

 

[Toni]

Yeah, he is.

And you are, too. It is perfectly acceptable to you that girls and women bear an extra burden. So that men don't have to inconvenience themselves enough to model respectful behavior towards women, to show that they are valued as fully as are men.

Because you don't.

No, that is not at all what I am saying, as a reader can see in my posts. There is nothing acceptable with the behavior of rapists, murderers, or for that matter robbers that restrict the freedom of other people, including both men and women. What you say has nothing to do with what I am saying, or what Metaphor is saying. There are risks that one should rationally take into consideration; whether has a moral obligation is another matter, and depends on the circumstances.

Assuming for the sake of the argument that those risks are higher for women, then they should take precautions that it is not the case men should take, and again given that assumption, if a woman asked me why she should take more precautions I would answer that that's because she is at a greater risk. In reality, the risks depend on the situation of each person. Sometimes, a woman faces greater risks than a man. Sometimes, it is the other way around (e.g., if the woman lives in a safe neighbourhood and the man in a dangerous one).

I grew up in a very safe neighborhood. I raised my children in a very safe neighborhood.

I was sexually assaulted. My daughter was sexually assaulted. I lost track long ago of the number of women and girls I know who were sexually assaulted.

My sons have never been assaulted or otherwise victims of violent crime. Exactly ONE of their friends was mugged on a street. One. That's it for victimization by violent crime.

 

[Toni]

Interesting. As so often happens in threads where rape or prostitution is discussed, it is indeed a feminist who brings up the fact that there are male prostitutes and male rape victims. Me. That’s who usually brings it up. As I did here in the post you quoted.

So? The perpetrators of the violence against them are still men. So why did you bring it up? What's your point?

Because the perpetrators of violence against men and boys are largely other men and boys.

Male prostitutes are not seen as victims. Because they aren't. They rarely see themselves as it. It's a significant part of the gay world and it seems to work quite well for all involved. So it ruins the feminist idea that all prostitutes are victims. So criminalising any part of it is what leads to protecting violent perpetrators. But that doesn't stop feminists to insist it should be illegal to buy sex.

I don't know about Sweden but in the US, male prostitutes are fairly often minors. This makes them rape victims.

Its almost like they don't care about preventing violence against prostitutes, male or female.

It's almost as though we realize that violence against prostitutes will continue, whether prostitution is legal or not. Maybe because we can read studies that show this to be the fact.

I don’t know why you think women are incapable of acting as law enforcement officers. Women do it quite well.

No, you asked who would protect women.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I would add a requirement that all women wear ab bag to avoid tempting men.

That's pretty funny! But as a father of daughters, very sad. There's another thread that white people have great privilege. But all men have a different kind of privilege that women don't get. I'm a runner. I started running 10 miles plus starting when I was 10 by myself. My daughters can't run by themselves. We teach them to run with a partner and be vigilant. Their male cousins have no such issue. Bar hopping: we teach young girls to stay with a partner. Be careful of someone slipping a date drug into your drink (this should be attempted murder by the way). Males don't have to worry about this. Society also seems to becoming more tolerant of abusive behavior which affects women more. It's sad.

Both of these are inherent in biology.

A male runner likely has nothing of value to a criminal--keys require identifying what they are a key to which will be a severe limit on their value. A female runner, however, inherently has something of considerable value to certain criminals.

This has a feel of simply handwaving the crime as being committed simply by a "criminal" not a human being. Crimes of rape and by incels are often about power and control over women, a sense of male entitlement or dominance or worse. We tell our daughters that this shit is a fait accompli, be prepared.

Why do we tell out daughters this? Why aren't our sons taught that this shit shouldn't be a fait accompli?

Crimes by psychopaths are one thing. Their minds are operating with different programming, but we have plenty of cases (way too many, vast majority?) of mentally competent males committing crimes that we tell our daughters that 'this is just a thing you have to deal with'.

With the invention of the Internet, incels have been able to coddle each other and convince themselves of the nastiness and vile mindset of women. Many of them just stop there, but a few go on and commit heinous acts. But the discussion always goes back the daughters, sorry honey, but you might get run over by a car driven by a male that thinks women are evil. Why aren't we talking to the boys?

 

[Toni]

No it doesn't. There are quite severe penalties our society imposes for rape of girls and women. Up to life in prison and also registering as a sex offender, which imposes severe restrictions on people even after they leave prison. Now of course, like all other crimes the state has to prove the rape occurred beyond a reasonable doubt. I know many feminists do not like that requirement.


Arguementum ad exemplum is a fallacy. And why is sexual assault the only kind of assault that matters to you? 'When you consider all violent crime, men are victimized much more frequently than women.
View attachment 32343

Men need to start viewing and treating women as equals

So no opening doors for women, no "women and children first" and other chivalrous stuff, right?

and as equally entitled to walk the streets, enter establishments, live their lives without fear of being assaulted.

Again, women are far less likely than men to be victims of violent crime. So your whole premise is wrong because of your sexist bias that only violence against women matters.

I was not successful in my attempt to include the table so I will just provide the link. Women are more likely to be victims of violent crime compared with men, excluding simple assault. Simple assault is generally defined as follows:

Simple assault, usually charged as a misdemeanor, is the least serious form of assault. It involves minor injury or a limited threat of violence. In states where assault is a physical attack, pushing someone or slapping someone in an argument are instances of simple assault. Where the law defines assault as threatening behavior that puts another in fear, threatening to punch someone would be a simple assault.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv18st.pdf

 

[DrZoidberg]

Both of these are inherent in biology.

A male runner likely has nothing of value to a criminal--keys require identifying what they are a key to which will be a severe limit on their value. A female runner, however, inherently has something of considerable value to certain criminals.

This has a feel of simply handwaving the crime as being committed simply by a "criminal" not a human being. Crimes of rape and by incels are often about power and control over women, a sense of male entitlement or dominance or worse. We tell our daughters that this shit is a fait accompli, be prepared.

Why do we tell out daughters this? Why aren't our sons taught that this shit shouldn't be a fait accompli?

Nobody is saying that they shouldn't be. You are interpreting Loren's statement that the cause of the behavior is biological, as a justification. As if that makes it ok and that we shouldn't do anything about it. I don't think that's what Loren is saying.

We can teach our sons not to rape all we want. But we'll be deluded if we think that's good enough, or if that alone will fix it.

I think, given the right circumstances, any man can become a rapist. I'm basing this on research done in war zones. Civilization is a thin varnish. We like to tell ourselves a myth of how we'd never be able to commit a murder, or that we could never be able to rape anyone. It's a good story to keep spreading. I'm sure spreading this often in our culture is a good thing. I suspect it keeps us civilized. But the whole point of drinking alcohol is to remove a couple of layers of civilization. To make us less civilized. To make us lose some of the control a bit. Considering how much teenagers drink, good luck stopping rape by telling your sons not to do it. We'll always need a more radical solution. Always. I don't think it's a problem that will ever go away completely.

Crimes by psychopaths are one thing. Their minds are operating with different programming, but we have plenty of cases (way too many, vast majority?) of mentally competent males committing crimes that we tell our daughters that 'this is just a thing you have to deal with'.

You're assuming that these mentally competent males are committing sex crimes because of a social culture encouraging rape. That's not how I see it. I see our Western culture as one that discourages rape to the extreme, on all levels in society, all the time, and it still happens. My first career was working in clubs, bars and parties. Probably the environment where we see most sex crimes, and I've yet to see anything resembling "rape culture" or overt "toxic masculinity" anywhere I've been. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just saying that I've never seen it. Which makes me doubtful it's so common as some feminists would like us to believe. It's rather the opposite. The European 90'ies club scene had a culture that was very protective of women and women's safety. Very.

With the invention of the Internet, incels have been able to coddle each other and convince themselves of the nastiness and vile mindset of women. Many of them just stop there, but a few go on and commit heinous acts. But the discussion always goes back the daughters, sorry honey, but you might get run over by a car driven by a male that thinks women are evil.

I don't think incels are the problem. According to rape statistics pretty much all rape is committed by somebody the woman already knows. It's somebody in her own inner circle already. Isn't the whole thing about incels that they never get that close to women? Or have I misunderstood what an incel is?

Yeah, this sucks for women. I wish there was a way to create a world where women didn't need to be careful. But unless you have a method that works, it's just wishful thinking.

Why aren't we talking to the boys?

Nobody has said we shouldn't do that as well.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But the whole point of drinking alcohol is to remove a couple of layers of civilization. To make us less civilized. To make us lose some of the control a bit. Considering how much teenagers drink, good luck stopping rape by telling your sons not to do it.

So fait accompli. Damn the torpedoes, girls, you are on your own.

I'm sorry for the snip and post, but you really didn't get any of my post and misinterpreted just about all of it.

I didn't say people said not to talk to boys, I asked why aren't we. Then you say, it is fait accompli, so talking won't matter. But then you get upset when you think it is suggested that I said people were against it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

But the whole point of drinking alcohol is to remove a couple of layers of civilization. To make us less civilized. To make us lose some of the control a bit. Considering how much teenagers drink, good luck stopping rape by telling your sons not to do it.

So fait accompli. Damn the torpedoes, girls, you are on your own.

I'm sorry for the snip and post, but you really didn't get any of my post and misinterpreted just about all of it.

I didn't say people said not to talk to boys, I asked why aren't we. Then you say, it is fait accompli, so talking won't matter. But then you get upset when you think it is suggested that I said people were against it.

But we are talking to boys about it. And boys are talking to eachother. There's a lot of talking going on.

Yes, I am sure plenty of men in the west have some pretty fucked up ideas about women and who deserves what. But I am also sure that the vast majority of men are very sensible about this and do take their responsibility.

Most men don't rape and never will. You only need a tiny fraction of men to do it for it to keep being a problem.

I take issue with the problem formulation of that we aren't talking enough to boys. I think we already are talking to boys about this enough. I don't think talking to boys more about it will bring down rape numbers one iota. These perpetrators get the teaching and the lessons and still rape.

I think we should keep talking to boys. It certainly can't hurt. But whatever solution we bring to the table has to be more than just talking to boys. That's what I believe

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But the whole point of drinking alcohol is to remove a couple of layers of civilization. To make us less civilized. To make us lose some of the control a bit. Considering how much teenagers drink, good luck stopping rape by telling your sons not to do it.

So fait accompli. Damn the torpedoes, girls, you are on your own.

I'm sorry for the snip and post, but you really didn't get any of my post and misinterpreted just about all of it.

I didn't say people said not to talk to boys, I asked why aren't we. Then you say, it is fait accompli, so talking won't matter. But then you get upset when you think it is suggested that I said people were against it.

But we are talking to boys about it.

Are we? Got specifics?

Most men don't rape and never will. You only need a tiny fraction of men to do it for it to keep being a problem.

One assessment says 1 in 6 women suffer from an attempted or completed rape, even if this is off by half a magnitude, that tiny percentage of men get around! I get this feeling women are experiencing one thing, and guys are seeing something completely different. Man and woman walking out of movie theater.

Woman: That was a great comedy.
Man: Yeah, I love race car movies.
Woman: *wah?*

Women are complaining, a lot about this.

Women: Sexual harassment and assault is much more prevalent than you think!
Men: Naw... it's just a small percentage of men.
Women: *wah?*

Heck, you even said all men are capable of rape, but then simplified it to a tiny percentage commit it.

I don't think talking to boys more about it will bring down rape numbers one iota.

You haven't even established that they are being talked to enough about it. When these things happen, it is all about what can women do to make themselves safer. Not what can be done to reduce attempted assaults.

 

[J842P]

But we are talking to boys about it.

Are we? Got specifics?

Most men don't rape and never will. You only need a tiny fraction of men to do it for it to keep being a problem.

One assessment says 1 in 6 women suffer from an attempted or completed rape, even if this is off by half a magnitude, that tiny percentage of men get around! I get this feeling women are experiencing one thing, and guys are seeing something completely different. Man and woman walking out of movie theater.

Woman: That was a great comedy.
Man: Yeah, I love race car movies.
Woman: *wah?*

Women are complaining, a lot about this.

Women: Sexual harassment and assault is much more prevalent than you think!
Men: Naw... it's just a small percentage of men.
Women: *wah?*

Heck, you even said all men are capable of rape, but then simplified it to a tiny percentage commit it.

I don't think talking to boys more about it will bring down rape numbers one iota.

You haven't even established that they are being talked to enough about it. When these things happen, it is all about what can women do to make themselves safer. Not what can be done to reduce attempted assaults.

Well, if rape follows the same pattern as most other violent crime, then yeah, the majority of crime is committed by a small population.

 

[Trausti]

Are we? Got specifics?

One assessment says 1 in 6 women suffer from an attempted or completed rape, even if this is off by half a magnitude, that tiny percentage of men get around! I get this feeling women are experiencing one thing, and guys are seeing something completely different. Man and woman walking out of movie theater.

Woman: That was a great comedy.
Man: Yeah, I love race car movies.
Woman: *wah?*

Women are complaining, a lot about this.

Women: Sexual harassment and assault is much more prevalent than you think!
Men: Naw... it's just a small percentage of men.
Women: *wah?*

Heck, you even said all men are capable of rape, but then simplified it to a tiny percentage commit it.

I don't think talking to boys more about it will bring down rape numbers one iota.

You haven't even established that they are being talked to enough about it. When these things happen, it is all about what can women do to make themselves safer. Not what can be done to reduce attempted assaults.

Well, if rape follows the same pattern as most other violent crime, then yeah, the majority of crime is committed by a small population.

Right. A very small percentage of the population commits most of the crime; and that small percentage is usually repeat offenders. All the more important that we properly fund police to arrest these offenders. Also important that the justice system properly punish these offenders and keep them away from the general populace. But in the UK . . .

'How can we say justice has been served?' Fury as 'black cab rapist' John Worboys who 'attacked over 100 women' is to be FREED from jail after serving just 'six weeks per victim'

 

[bilby]

Well, if rape follows the same pattern as most other violent crime, then yeah, the majority of crime is committed by a small population.

Right. A very small percentage of the population commits most of the crime; and that small percentage is usually repeat offenders. All the more important that we properly fund police to arrest these offenders. Also important that the justice system properly punish these offenders and keep them away from the general populace. But in the UK . . .

'How can we say justice has been served?' Fury as 'black cab rapist' John Worboys who 'attacked over 100 women' is to be FREED from jail after serving just 'six weeks per victim'

Eleven and a half years in jail doesn't seem like a ridiculously light sentence.

I am not going to give the Daily Mail my click, but based on those figures, that's what "just" six weeks per victim multiplied by 100 victims implies. Of course "more than 100" could imply a rather longer sentence than eleven and a half years.

Dividing a criminal sentence by the number of victims to make it seem like it was trivial is an excellent example of biased reporting, so your link does at least serve the purpose of illustrating why the Daily Mail is unworthy of any sane person's attention.

 

[DrZoidberg]

But we are talking to boys about it.

Are we? Got specifics?

How much parents are talking to their kids will of course only be anecdotal. But I think it's a lot. This is based on everybody in my life.

And then we have TV and movies. It's a complete 24/7 wall of non-stop propaganda about it. It's relentless. I'm for it. Of course. But I think it's a good indicator for where our culture stands on this.

Most men don't rape and never will. You only need a tiny fraction of men to do it for it to keep being a problem.

One assessment says 1 in 6 women suffer from an attempted or completed rape, even if this is off by half a magnitude, that tiny percentage of men get around! I get this feeling women are experiencing one thing, and guys are seeing something completely different. Man and woman walking out of movie theater.

I do think that it's a small fraction of men who get around a lot.

I also think a big problem is dishonesty about what sex women like in the media. In books like Dataclysm and google search analysis we learn that women are often into violent sex. Women are a hell of a lot kinkier than their image. No, shit this confuses young men when they start having sex. No, shit this confuses women when they try to communicate what they are into. No matter if they like soft or hard sex.

We're also fed the myth that women and men think alike, and should understand each other. I don't think it is helpful. I think a lot of women are feeling sexually harassed by guys who think they aren't.

And throw some psychopaths into the mix and we have the perfect storm.

I have an anecdote about this. My girlfriend works in utilities. She's a project manager. She has at her disposal a bunch of workers who go and fix the stuff she tells them to. She noticed that whenever she was around them they got really stiff and watched their language. She told them they can relax and treat her like one of the boys. They answered that they didn't think that was legal in Denmark. They'd be guilty of sexual harassment in no time. Men and women don't talk to their own as they talk with each other. I certainly don't. I'm much more respectful when I speak to women.

Heck, you even said all men are capable of rape, but then simplified it to a tiny percentage commit it.

This is based on a sociological book I read on war zones. But everything else I've read about war zones seem to back this up. It's purely academic knowledge. It's just a theory. I haven't seen evidence of it around me.

I've also read evolutionary biology books. Humans are tribal. We think in terms of outgroup and ingroup. We protect the ingroup. But for the outgroup anything goes, including rape. That seems to be basic human psychological make up (not just men). The trick of civilization is to expand the ingroup to encompass all of the nation or humanity etc. Which is why people who feel like outsiders so dangerous.

What I'm trying to say is that thinking about it like this, makes sense for me. I'm not arguing for it, or saying that this is how it should be. I'd rather it wasn't like this. But this is what I believe how it actually works.

I don't think talking to boys more about it will bring down rape numbers one iota.

You haven't even established that they are being talked to enough about it. When these things happen, it is all about what can women do to make themselves safer. Not what can be done to reduce attempted assaults.

Let's turn it around. What's your argument for that we aren't talking to them enough?