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Would a Good Guy with a Gun Have Been Justified in Saving George Floyd?

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Mods, please feel free to move this to one of the existing Floyd/Chauvin threads if you feel it should be there instead.

So...

Would a Good Guy with a Gun Have Been Justified in Saving George Floyd?

I saw this question posted by The Rude Pundit and thought it was intriguing.

Gun "rights" supporters often talk about two things: that some mythical "good guy with a gun" will be able to stop a bad guy in a violent situation, and that people need to be able to own guns to stop the government from treading on their life, liberty, and property. No, I don't believe these things justify mass gun ownership. But we do have a fuckton of guns. In Derek Chauvin, you have both situations bound together. The bad guy was a government official and he was depriving George Floyd of life and liberty.
 
One of those potential good guys with a gun could have been the other officers.
 
If they had been. Good Guys. With guns.
 
Perhaps the shooter would be justified in that situation, but they would have to receive any commendation posthumously.
 
Oof, that would have caused carnage. Maybe rushing and tackling Chauvin would have changed things but there would still be bad consequences for anyone that did that.
 
Oof, that would have caused carnage. Maybe rushing and tackling Chauvin would have changed things but there would still be bad consequences for anyone that did that.

So here's a question for you: if something yields bad consequences for you in the moment, but good consequences for everyone over time (such as, but not limited to a prevention of riots and a reticence of police to overstep their power in the knowledge of direct response), what is the general descriptor people use for such acts?

Because I was under the impression that descriptor was "Heroic".
 
Some would say foolhardy. Call it what you like though. Maybe in my younger day I would have done something about it.
 
One of those potential good guys with a gun could have been the other officers.
I recall there being a situation caught on camera during the Floyd protests and two officers subduing a person on the ground. One of the officers had his knee to the neck of the person on the ground. The other officer either commanded or personally shoved (I don't recall that detail) the knee away from the neck. Floyd would likely either be alive today or a drug induced death would have been more obviously a drug induced death, had one of the officers insisted as such.
 
Probably not justified. The reason is that such person would need to take out all the police present as a logical consequence. Or at least, that is what I think would likely happen. One must consider the downstream consequences and risks. Is one person's life worth all the killings that would happen? Possible scenario could be like this:
Person shoots Chauvin. Other officer shoots them. Officer misses and hits citizen. Other officer fires back and hits intended target. First guy shoots again and kills second officer. Officer shoots again and kill shot his first guy. It could also be worse. How many people could die? How many other innocents than Floyd?

It would probably make more sense in an isolated situation of just Chauvin, just Floyd, and just a citizen with a gun. If Chauvin in that case refused to stop killing Floyd after being given chances and proper information that he was killing him, then tackling Chauvin would be appropriate. If he still was a danger to life and limb, then shooting him would be appropriate in self-defense.

This is my opinion, anyway and I am trying to reason it out.
 
Probably not justified. The reason is that such person would need to take out all the police present as a logical consequence. Or at least, that is what I think would likely happen. One must consider the downstream consequences and risks. Is one person's life worth all the killings that would happen? Possible scenario could be like this:
Person shoots Chauvin. Other officer shoots them. Officer misses and hits citizen. Other officer fires back and hits intended target. First guy shoots again and kills second officer. Officer shoots again and kill shot his first guy. It could also be worse. How many people could die? How many other innocents than Floyd?

It would probably make more sense in an isolated situation of just Chauvin, just Floyd, and just a citizen with a gun. If Chauvin in that case refused to stop killing Floyd after being given chances and proper information that he was killing him, then tackling Chauvin would be appropriate. If he still was a danger to life and limb, then shooting him would be appropriate in self-defense.

This is my opinion, anyway and I am trying to reason it out.
The only way to have prevented what happened was for the officers there to have acted properly and kept each other in line. Instead, they all failed and either they need better training or to be fired. People can't be shooting at the police. Police are supposed to be trained how to apprehend people, even people that aren't cooperative, without them becoming dead in the process.
 
One of those potential good guys with a gun could have been the other officers.

EXACTLY!!!
I keep hearing about "one bad apple", as if it's one out of a hundred cops who are "bad" like Chauvin.
But all FOUR officers who responded to the Floyd "incident" were fired - all presumably for being "bad".

If one out a hundred are "bad" the odds of that happening are literally one in a million.
 
One of those potential good guys with a gun could have been the other officers.

EXACTLY!!!
I keep hearing about "one bad apple", as if it's one out of a hundred cops who are "bad" like Chauvin.
But all FOUR officers who responded to the Floyd "incident" were fired - all presumably for being "bad".

If one out a hundred are "bad" the odds of that happening are literally one in a million.

Often when I think of the situation, it is in that context, the context of being one of those officers.

The only thing that prevented that was the good sense I had after leaving the at that the wheel of police culture has been grinding stronger people than me to dust for centuries, and I would have had no hope to remain unscathed and unfired.
 
Probably not justified. The reason is that such person would need to take out all the police present as a logical consequence. Or at least, that is what I think would likely happen. One must consider the downstream consequences and risks. Is one person's life worth all the killings that would happen? Possible scenario could be like this:
Person shoots Chauvin. Other officer shoots them. Officer misses and hits citizen. Other officer fires back and hits intended target. First guy shoots again and kills second officer. Officer shoots again and kill shot his first guy. It could also be worse. How many people could die? How many other innocents than Floyd?

It would probably make more sense in an isolated situation of just Chauvin, just Floyd, and just a citizen with a gun. If Chauvin in that case refused to stop killing Floyd after being given chances and proper information that he was killing him, then tackling Chauvin would be appropriate. If he still was a danger to life and limb, then shooting him would be appropriate in self-defense.

This is my opinion, anyway and I am trying to reason it out.
The only way to have prevented what happened was for the officers there to have acted properly and kept each other in line. Instead, they all failed and either they need better training or to be fired. People can't be shooting at the police. Police are supposed to be trained how to apprehend people, even people that aren't cooperative, without them becoming dead in the process.

People shouldn't generally shoot police. Of course, you want to prefer other police to act, but if they don't then the consequences of your inaction result in a life lost.

Their actions are illegal and immoral. You have to save people's lives and hope that when it comes to it, the court will defend your basic rights to save a life in self-defense. That doesn't mean it's generally okay to be a vigilante, but in the case of self-defense of a life in immediate danger of being murdered, I think exceptions ought to be made.

Look, I've been in the shit with a drill sergeant telling half the platoon to attack one of our soldiers in the platoon. It was up to the other drill sergeants to do something. They didn't. Anarchy resulted. I stepped up and physically stopped the attack. It seemed like 20 versus 5, but we won and the drill sergeant told everyone to stop. Do you think I was wrong to defend someone? I felt like his life was in danger from an attack of some 20 people against him ordered illegally and I had to act within a split second to do something. I don't think I was wrong.
 
Probably not justified. The reason is that such person would need to take out all the police present as a logical consequence. Or at least, that is what I think would likely happen. One must consider the downstream consequences and risks. Is one person's life worth all the killings that would happen? Possible scenario could be like this:
Person shoots Chauvin. Other officer shoots them. Officer misses and hits citizen. Other officer fires back and hits intended target. First guy shoots again and kills second officer. Officer shoots again and kill shot his first guy. It could also be worse. How many people could die? How many other innocents than Floyd?

It would probably make more sense in an isolated situation of just Chauvin, just Floyd, and just a citizen with a gun. If Chauvin in that case refused to stop killing Floyd after being given chances and proper information that he was killing him, then tackling Chauvin would be appropriate. If he still was a danger to life and limb, then shooting him would be appropriate in self-defense.

This is my opinion, anyway and I am trying to reason it out.
The only way to have prevented what happened was for the officers there to have acted properly and kept each other in line. Instead, they all failed and either they need better training or to be fired. People can't be shooting at the police. Police are supposed to be trained how to apprehend people, even people that aren't cooperative, without them becoming dead in the process.

People shouldn't generally shoot police. Of course, you want to prefer other police to act, but if they don't then the consequences of your inaction result in a life lost.

Their actions are illegal and immoral. You have to save people's lives and hope that when it comes to it, the court will defend your basic rights to save a life in self-defense. That doesn't mean it's generally okay to be a vigilante, but in the case of self-defense of a life in immediate danger of being murdered, I think exceptions ought to be made.

Look, I've been in the shit with a drill sergeant telling half the platoon to attack one of our soldiers in the platoon. It was up to the other drill sergeants to do something. They didn't. Anarchy resulted. I stepped up and physically stopped the attack. It seemed like 20 versus 5, but we won and the drill sergeant told everyone to stop. Do you think I was wrong to defend someone? I felt like his life was in danger from an attack of some 20 people against him ordered illegally and I had to act within a split second to do something. I don't think I was wrong.

Holy shit that's fucked up. You were not in the wrong. Good job.
 
I say no. The good guy would not be justified to use deadly force. Regrettably, the good guy would highly likely be killed and the situation would be the same which is the police killed someone and the reason is controversial however it's better than doing what they would do and use deadly force when tackling is the better option.

Regardless, the last thing the police should ever want/need is the people they are there to protect having to protect themselves from the police. This is why it is very important for them to stop dropping the damn ball every time they have a chance to hold one of their own accouintable. I honestly believe it's going to take an adorable, innocent little white girl getting shot for them to look in the mirror and collectively consider "damn, we're fucked up ".
 
No.

First, Don2 is almost right about having to take out the other officers, but if someone were far enough away with a sniper rifle that could be avoided.

Second, there's an even bigger factor. When you enter into a situation like this you take the same status as the person you are defending--you can only lawfully use deadly force if they could lawfully use deadly force. The scenario that makes the most sense here is that Floyd did something in the police car that upset the police enough that they decided to administer some street justice. That makes Floyd the aggressor and thus I'm pretty sure denies him the ability to use lethal force in defense.
 
. I honestly believe it's going to take an adorable, innocent little white girl getting shot for them to look in the mirror and collectively consider "damn, we're fucked up ".

I think that also happened in Minnesota recently, but the cop who shot wasn’t white so it didn’t count.
 
Mods, please feel free to move this to one of the existing Floyd/Chauvin threads if you feel it should be there instead.

So...

Would a Good Guy with a Gun Have Been Justified in Saving George Floyd?

I saw this question posted by The Rude Pundit and thought it was intriguing.

Gun "rights" supporters often talk about two things: that some mythical "good guy with a gun" will be able to stop a bad guy in a violent situation, and that people need to be able to own guns to stop the government from treading on their life, liberty, and property. No, I don't believe these things justify mass gun ownership. But we do have a fuckton of guns. In Derek Chauvin, you have both situations bound together. The bad guy was a government official and he was depriving George Floyd of life and liberty.

Meh. Why use a good guy with a gun, when you could use a good singer with a wagging finger instead?

https://www.nydailynews.com/snyde/ny-cher-divides-twitter-help-george-floyd-maybe-been-there-could-have-helped-20210403-6dyv3usyabh3pckvaxjimbzma4-story.html

Cher is stirring up emotions on social media after writing a controversial tweet in which she wondered if she could’ve done something to prevent George Floyd’s death.

“Was talking with mom and she said ‘I watched the trial of policeman who killed George Floyd and cried,” the “Believe” singer tweeted Friday night.

“I said: “Mom, I know this is gonna sound CRAZY, but..I kept thinking….Maybe if I’d been there,...I could’ve helped,” she wrote, adding a sad face emoji.

By Saturday afternoon, her tweet had been quoted more than 8,000 times and earned nearly 2,700 retweets.

It was liked more than 24,000 times — while, at the same time, also criticized by many Twitter users who accused the singer of being a tone-deaf “white savior.”
 
I had a cousin in law whose father was in World War Two. His platoon or group he was in decided they were going to rape this German woman. He told them no and they told him they were. He machine gunned them all down. He was court martialed but found not guilty. There was an elderly civilian witness everything and one man not of the platoon who was going to rape the woman but figured he wasnt bluffing and stood away.
 
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