Anarchism/Capitalism Thread Split

[Elixir]

Like I said the movement was attacked by every major top down power system that existed.

Oh what a surprise.
The tide came in.
The damn fools never expected such a thing.

 

[untermensche]

You wish.
Where were you in the 60s, Unter? What were you doing?
I knew more about anarchism by 1965 than you ever will.

What is a guiding principle of anarchism?

Just one.

That the people can govern themselves, which has never been shown to work. Its been tried in Utopian societies in the US in the past. The closest one gets to it are the Amish. And they suck from the teat of state and local Government, as well as being within the reach of the judicial system.

That is not anarchism.

Anarchism is the examination of structures of power and making determinations about them.

If they are not necessary they are dismantled.

The Anarchist would remove as much hierarchical power as possible.

But unlike capitalism it has that aim.

Capitalism has no connection to freedom or democracy.

It can thrive in totalitarian China as well as in democratic Germany.

 

[untermensche]

Like I said the movement was attacked by every major top down power system that existed.

Oh what a surprise.
The tide came in.
The damn fools never expected such a thing.

Yes the victims of Hitler and Mussolini and the fascist Franco were to blame for their attacks.

Interesting to see you are on the side of fascism and Hitler here.

The capitalist will support Hitler before they support greater freedom.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That the people can govern themselves, which has never been shown to work. Its been tried in Utopian societies in the US in the past. The closest one gets to it are the Amish. And they suck from the teat of state and local Government, as well as being within the reach of the judicial system.

That is not anarchism.

Anarchism is the examination of structures of power and making determinations about them.

If they are not necessary they are dismantled.

The Anarchist would remove as much hierarchical power as possible.

That isn't particularly accurate. Who specifically makes those decisions, what is and isn't necessary? Gonna have a large vote or people to determine if the Third District Court of Appeals is necessary?

When one says they just want to examine the power structure, they sound like they are full of shit. The anarchists equivalent to "stop wasteful spending in Government", because that power structure has been around for a while. So what exactly do we rid the US of "hierarchical" power wise? The Fed, Measures and Weights, Courts,

 

[Elixir]

Like I said the movement was attacked by every major top down power system that existed.

Oh what a surprise.
The tide came in.
The damn fools never expected such a thing.

Yes the victims of Hitler and Mussolini and the fascist Franco were to blame for their attacks.

Waaaah! Poor baby. Sorry your pet delusion was trampled on, I really am.

Interesting to see you are on the side of fascism and Hitler here.

Interesting that you are reduced to bloviating about your delusions regarding MY preferences. You like to call anyone who points out the gaping flaws in your lame-ass arguments a Hitler supporter.
Godwin's law seems to have you permanently residing in Godwin's jail.

The capitalist will support Hitler before they support greater freedom.

The anarchist will resort to cute little quips (usually calling others "Hitler supporters") to shore up their fantasies before dealing with reality.
Stunning ignorance.

 

[untermensche]

That the people can govern themselves, which has never been shown to work. Its been tried in Utopian societies in the US in the past. The closest one gets to it are the Amish. And they suck from the teat of state and local Government, as well as being within the reach of the judicial system.

That is not anarchism.

Anarchism is the examination of structures of power and making determinations about them.

If they are not necessary they are dismantled.

The Anarchist would remove as much hierarchical power as possible.

That isn't particularly accurate. Who specifically makes those decisions, what is and isn't necessary? Gonna have a large vote or people to determine if the Third District Court of Appeals is necessary?

When one says they just want to examine the power structure, they sound like they are full of shit. The anarchists equivalent to "stop wasteful spending in Government", because that power structure has been around for a while. So what exactly do we rid the US of "hierarchical" power wise? The Fed, Measures and Weights, Courts,

It is accurate.

It is a central goal of anarchism.

To dismantle all illegitimate power structures. Like the boss/worker power structure.

The beauty is the Anarchists don't decide which power structures are legitimate.

All power structures must prove themselves they are needed and legitimate to exist.

 

[untermensche]

The anarchist will resort to cute little quips (usually calling others "Hitler supporters") to shore up their fantasies before dealing with reality.
Stunning ignorance.

You mean they will use actual history to determine who is being supported.

You clearly blame the victims of Hitler for their harms.

They should not have let it happen.

The Anarchists are weak for not defeating Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, the US and Britain.

Childish drivel.

 

[Elixir]

The anarchist will resort to cute little quips (usually calling others "Hitler supporters") to shore up their fantasies before dealing with reality.
Stunning ignorance.

You mean they will use DENY actual history to determine who is being supported.

FIFY

The Anarchists are weak for not defeating Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, the US and Britain

No, anarchism is too weak to withstand human nature, AS HAS BEEN REPEATEDLY DEMONSTRATED BY HISTORY.
Get a grip, dude. Attacking me with falsehoods about who I "support" isn't going to help make anarchism viable.
It leads to anarchy, as others have pointed out.

FWIW, my parents were both Navy vets. My father was descended from German Jews who fled to America when Naziism first appeared, and before Nazis gained control. He fought in three wars, including the one that vanquished your favorite boogeyman.

I find it highly offensive that you repeatedly try to place me in opposition to my own parents. Do you do it because you know it's offensive?
It's a tactic worthy of a scumbag. But it does reveal your intellectual bankruptcy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That isn't particularly accurate. Who specifically makes those decisions, what is and isn't necessary? Gonna have a large vote or people to determine if the Third District Court of Appeals is necessary?

When one says they just want to examine the power structure, they sound like they are full of shit. The anarchists equivalent to "stop wasteful spending in Government", because that power structure has been around for a while. So what exactly do we rid the US of "hierarchical" power wise? The Fed, Measures and Weights, Courts,

It is accurate.

It is a central goal of anarchism.

To beat around the bush?

To dismantle all illegitimate power structures. Like the boss/worker power structure.

HAW! How disingenuous that you leave it there, not that that is even a workable idea. What else gets torn down by the people who aren't making those decisions? Or will there be more bush beating?

The beauty is the Anarchists don't decide which power structures are legitimate.

All power structures must prove themselves they are needed and legitimate to exist.

Wow, that is marvelously naive. We don't judge, the system judges itself!

A: Was that a ball or a strike?
B: I dunno, let's ask the ball.

 

[untermensche]

All power structures must prove themselves they are needed and legitimate to exist.

Wow, that is marvelously naive. We don't judge, the system judges itself!

A: Was that a ball or a strike?
B: I dunno, let's ask the ball.

?

The power structure must justify itself.

It must demonstrate it is needed.

The people will decide. Direct referendum.

The people will decide which power structures have met the burden and will be lawful.

Anarchism unlike capitalism is intertwined with democracy.

Capitalism is anti-democratic and corrupts democracies.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

All power structures must prove themselves they are needed and legitimate to exist.

Wow, that is marvelously naive. We don't judge, the system judges itself!

A: Was that a ball or a strike?
B: I dunno, let's ask the ball.

?

The power structure must justify itself.

To who?

It must demonstrate it is needed.

By whom. We know vaccinations are needed and some people don't even bother with them, and that was before Covid-19.

The people will decide. Direct referendum.

Oh goody... you decided to answer straight up. The people. The people involved, the people in general, the people with expertise in the area of concern? The sociopathic mob that will inevitably seize control locally?

The people will decide which power structures have met the burden and will be lawful.

Anarchism unlike capitalism is intertwined with democracy.

And yet, when we go see a doctor, we don't then take a vote to see what the prognosis is.

Capitalism is anti-democratic and corrupts democracies.

Capitalism is an economic model, you are talking about an all encompassing political and economic model (with no details whatsoever) and are beating around the bush about what things need to go. Which means either you haven't bothered to take your idea seriously enough, or you know your ideas are far too radical that you can't defend them.

You want to shove 325 million cooks into the kitchen are expecting progress on dinner.

 

[untermensche]

?

The power structure must justify itself.

To who?

First to you then you can try to justify it to me.

It must demonstrate it is needed.

By whom. We know vaccinations are needed and some people don't even bother with them, and that was before Covid-19.

To demonstrate something is needed you need to prove that removing it will cause great harm that can't be remedied.

The people will decide. Direct referendum.

Oh goody... you decided to answer straight up. The people. The people involved, the people in general, the people with expertise in the area of concern? The sociopathic mob that will inevitably seize control locally?

It's called democracy.

People need to have the will to create a democracy as functional as possible.

And yet, when we go see a doctor, we don't then take a vote to see what the prognosis is.

That is close to what a prognosis is.

A lot of "votes" averaged out.

It is not the doctors opinion. It is a statistical range.

You want to shove 325 million cooks into the kitchen are expecting progress on dinner.

I want top down power structures to justify themselves. To prove they are needed.

I want the boss to prove they are needed. Sometimes they are. Sometimes they are the creative force or even a great deciding force. But not all are.

Of course this is just the very beginning of Anarchism. After power structures that can't justify themselves are eliminated the power structures remaining are carefully examined to determine what kinds of power and how much power should be allowed.

Anarchism is not about the elimination of order.

It is about the elimination of illegitimate forms of power.

Order is desired.

 

[Elixir]

To beat around the bush?

That, and to try to demean and insult anyone who is unsatisfied with hollow clichés meant to justify irrational anarchistic expectations:

*Anarchism is not about the elimination of order.
(but it has that result because ... Hitler)

* It is about the elimination of illegitimate forms of power.
(and every anarchist has their own idea of what is illegitimate)

* Order is desired.
(like all other governmental philosophies)

 

[Treedbear]

I'm a capitalist in as much as I want to have a capitalistic system in which everyone gets to participate. It will only become so when we figure out how to assure everyone has access to capital. If large segments of society never have the realistic hope of have enough capital available to invest in opportunities that arise then we have a serfdom under conditions of debt bondage and indentured servitude.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Of course this is just the very beginning of Anarchism. After power structures that can't justify themselves are eliminated the power structures remaining are carefully examined to determine what kinds of power and how much power should be allowed.

Anarchism is not about the elimination of order.

Order is desired.

Anarchism President: Okay everyone, it is now time to tear down all of the illegitimate power structures, be it corporate, government, or public service related, but remember, we need to do so in an orderly fashion. So let's getting moving on it. If anyone questions your authority to tear down their illegitimate power structure, remember that you can always have a vote. Now, let's remember that there are an incalculable number of positions we seek to dismember, and it is possible, even likely, that the positions we seek to eradicate might be held by people that don't want to cede their power. So in order to do this right, and to minimize bloodshed, we'll need to be able to have a lot of votes. Hopefully you've downloaded the app onto your smart phone, well... oh... that's right, we already removed the illegitimate authority of cellular companies using airwaves that the public should own, and now the cellular services aren't working as well, because, darn it... who'd have thought appropriating and running a cellular phone monopolies would be so difficult. We are working on improving that, but the committees created to handle it have run into trouble on the basis of deciding who gets to decide how the cellular companies will be run, ie, some people want to just dismantle the whole thing because cell technology is a hinderance to the advancement of mankind, others want to run it based on a consensus within the cell service area, and others want to provide positions within the companies via a revolving workforce to ensure we stay away from reestablishing illegitimate power structures. Sadly, the first group murdered most of the others and we are having to work through that. So... back to the votes on how we decide which power structures need to be abolished in cases where said structures don't want to be abolished, we'll need to have a series of caucuses...

That you think this is even achievable, forget whether it'd work, is just remarkable.

 

[untermensche]

Your silly strawman is noted.

Eliminating illegitimate power structures only requires humans wanting to do it.

You don't care.

You have been made good and useless by a system that does not care.

 

[Elixir]

Your silly strawman is noted.

Your inability to rebut is noted. Again.

Eliminating illegitimate power structures only requires humans wanting to do it.

You're human. So do it.
Oh, you meant ALL humans. So Jimmy is absolutely correct.

You don't care.

How did you become such an expert on other people's cares and wishes? Magic 8-ball?
No, that can't be it - it is right some of the time.

You have been made good and useless by a system that does not care.

WOW! What a zinger! Do you practice delivering insults in front of a mirror?

 

[untermensche]

Your inability to rebut is noted. Again.

Rebut what?

Some illiterate who thinks Anarchism is anarchy and posts pictures of Anarchists being attacked by fascists to show how bad Anarchists are?

Oh, you meant ALL humans. So Jimmy is absolutely correct.

Did all humans vote and decide that top down immoral capitalism was going to be the system we are trapped in?

You don't care.

How did you become such an expert on other people's cares and wishes? Magic 8-ball?
No, that can't be it - it is right some of the time.

How did you become so blind and irrational?

If you had the wisdom to expect all power structure to defend their legitimacy and existence you would be an Anarchist.

You have been made good and useless by a system that does not care.

WOW! What a zinger! Do you practice delivering insults in front of a mirror?

Example A.

 

[Elixir]

Some illiterate who thinks Anarchism is anarchy and posts pictures of Anarchists being attacked by fascists to show how bad Anarchists are?

Nobody is asking you to refute your own nonsense. I don't think or and other anarchists are "bad" - I was one once. It's anarchism that's bad because it gives rise to anarchy. The people "anarchists" I have known - including you - are terminally naive, but are so nice and kind - it's heart rending, actually.

Did all humans vote and decide that top down immoral capitalism was going to be the system we are trapped in?

Read for comprehension: The point is that ONLY your fantasy "non-system" requires that EVERYONE AGREES.
We vote in a democracy. We voted to let people represent us who decided that money is speech and Corporations are people. That's the nature of people, to which you have shown utter blindness. We can vote them out, too. It has the benefit of holding the possibility of self-correction, unlike anarchism.

You can't get 70 people to all refrain from benefiting themselves, let alone 7 billion. Anarchism is inherently unstable for that reason alone. In fact if everyone was like them, anarchism would probably work great. But everyone is NOT like them.
That you can't get that simple fact is truly mysterious.

BTW, one short-lived Camelot moment in Catalonia is not proof of concept for anarchism, it's confirmation of it's non-viability in a world where people elect representatives to lie cheat and steal from them.

Please desist with your fantasy that I conflate anarchy with anarchism. I'm pretty sure you know otherwise, since when I said I hoped you weren't advocating for anarchy, the fact that you were advocating for anarchism was already deeply ingrained by your massive repetition of it. But the fact that anarchism predictably gives rise to anarchy seems to be a trigger point.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Your silly strawman is noted.

Eliminating illegitimate power structures only requires humans wanting to do it.

You don't care.

You have been made good and useless by a system that does not care.

The issue is that really almost all successful entities require some kind of power structure! A couple years ago, I volunteered for our kids school PTA group (for lack of a better name for it). It was a pretty minor sub group. We were several parents with very busy work/kids lives. We decided that we'd make all decisions by consent with no one in charge. Nothing got done! Nothing. Very successful group needs someone to take charge, to run the agenda; be responsible; report the results, allocate resources, make requests and be accountable. Anarchy dosn't work.