Anarchism/Capitalism Thread Split

[untermensche]

Your silly strawman is noted.

Eliminating illegitimate power structures only requires humans wanting to do it.

You don't care.

You have been made good and useless by a system that does not care.

The issue is that really almost all successful entities require some kind of power structure! A couple years ago, I volunteered for our kids school PTA group (for lack of a better name for it). It was a pretty minor sub group. We were several parents with very busy work/kids lives. We decided that we'd make all decisions by consent with no one in charge. Nothing got done! Nothing. Very successful group needs someone to take charge, to run the agenda; be responsible; report the results, allocate resources, make requests and be accountable. Anarchy dosn't work.

Leadership is not the same thing as illegitimate power.

But a leader is not a boss.

A leader is looking after the interests of the people they lead.

A boss is looking after the interests of the business.

 

[Swammerdami]

The Spanish Anarchists had a large widespread industrial modern society.

To examine it requires looking at it intact and in action.

Like I said. The Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain. [Swammi's emphasis]

... do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"?

I thought of appending an admonition: "Your claim is not phrased to describe what the Anarchists might have (out)produced or should have (out)produced but what the Anarchists actually DID (out)produce." But I felt this admonition would be redundant.

... do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"?

Like I said the movement was attacked by every major top down power system that existed....

I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilized life—snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.—had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master.

...

Spanish Anarchism may have been a joyful movement, worthy of admiration and emulation. But ... do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"? Your claim is not phrased to describe what the Anarchists might have (out)produced or should have (out)produced but what the Anarchists actually DID (out)produce.

 

[untermensche]

My claims are drawn from this book:



https://www.scribd.com/document/25020337/The-Anarchist-Collective-Sam-Dolgoff

 

[untermensche]

Spanish Anarchism may have been a joyful movement, worthy of admiration and emulation. But ... do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"? Your claim is not phrased to describe what the Anarchists might have (out)produced or should have (out)produced but what the Anarchists actually DID (out)produce.

You can't possibly know what it was like to be within this group of Anarchists like Orwell knew.

A man born blind cannot know what it is like to look at a sunset.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Your silly strawman is noted.

Eliminating illegitimate power structures only requires humans wanting to do it.

You don't care.

You have been made good and useless by a system that does not care.

The issue is that really almost all successful entities require some kind of power structure! A couple years ago, I volunteered for our kids school PTA group (for lack of a better name for it). It was a pretty minor sub group. We were several parents with very busy work/kids lives. We decided that we'd make all decisions by consent with no one in charge. Nothing got done! Nothing. Very successful group needs someone to take charge, to run the agenda; be responsible; report the results, allocate resources, make requests and be accountable. Anarchy dosn't work.

Likewise, my appreciation for the hell hole that is government came from trying to be involved in a Neighborhood Watch group. People are insane!

 

[Elixir]

People are insane!

Indeed.
Democracy relies on the hope that most people are not insane.
Anarchism relies on the hope that NOBODY is insane.
Totalitarianism relies on the hope that one particular person is not insane.

I'm going with democracy.
Anarchism’s hope is completely unrealistic and totalitarianism’s hope is self defeating in that total power makes people insane.

 

[Elixir]

You can't possibly know what it was like to be within this group of Anarchists like Orwell knew.

The question had nothing to do with "what it was like to be within this group of Anarchists", which is a subjective matter.
The question was "do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"?"

Apparently the answer is "no".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Spanish Anarchism may have been a joyful movement, worthy of admiration and emulation. But ... do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"? Your claim is not phrased to describe what the Anarchists might have (out)produced or should have (out)produced but what the Anarchists actually DID (out)produce.

You can't possibly know what it was like to be within this group of Anarchists like Orwell knew.

A man born blind cannot know what it is like to look at a sunset.

But even a blind man can see constant reference to an isolated event in Spain as being the keystone to support how great it would work is really foolish.

 

[Treedbear]

People are insane!

Indeed.
Democracy relies on the hope that most people are not insane.
Anarchism relies on the hope that NOBODY is insane.
Totalitarianism relies on the hope that one particular person is not insane.

I'm going with democracy.
Anarchism’s hope is completely unrealistic and totalitarianism’s hope is self defeating in that total power makes people insane.

From what untermensche has been relating Anarchism is based on Democracy. It's just that everything needs to come up for a vote. It's hard enough to get people to go out and vote once every 4 years let alone expect them be interested enough in every little issue that comes up. People have enough on their minds managing their own affairs. That's why unions are failing. People just want to pay their dues and let someone else worry about the long term. Things have to be really bad for them to get involved.

 

[untermensche]

You can't possibly know what it was like to be within this group of Anarchists like Orwell knew.

The question had nothing to do with "what it was like to be within this group of Anarchists", which is a subjective matter.
The question was "do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"?"

Apparently the answer is "no".

I posted the book that information is in.

 

[untermensche]

People are insane!

Indeed.
Democracy relies on the hope that most people are not insane.
Anarchism relies on the hope that NOBODY is insane.
Totalitarianism relies on the hope that one particular person is not insane.

I'm going with democracy.
Anarchism’s hope is completely unrealistic and totalitarianism’s hope is self defeating in that total power makes people insane.

From what untermensche has been relating Anarchism is based on Democracy. It's just that everything needs to come up for a vote. It's hard enough to get people to go out and vote once every 4 years let alone expect them be interested enough in every little issue that comes up. People have enough on their minds managing their own affairs. That's why unions are failing. People just want to pay their dues and let someone else worry about the long term. Things have to be really bad for them to get involved.

Nonsense.

Representative democracy is also democracy.

But pure democracy is preferred.

 

[untermensche]

Spanish Anarchism may have been a joyful movement, worthy of admiration and emulation. But ... do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"? Your claim is not phrased to describe what the Anarchists might have (out)produced or should have (out)produced but what the Anarchists actually DID (out)produce.

You can't possibly know what it was like to be within this group of Anarchists like Orwell knew.

A man born blind cannot know what it is like to look at a sunset.

But even a blind man can see constant reference to an isolated event in Spain as being the keystone to support how great it would work is really foolish.

What is first supported are Anarchist ideals.

The Spanish experiment will never be duplicated.

But capitalism is a violent immoral system.

Time for something with a little morality in it.

 

[Swammerdami]

You can't possibly know what it was like to be within this group of Anarchists like Orwell knew.

The question had nothing to do with "what it was like to be within this group of Anarchists", which is a subjective matter.
The question was "do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"?"

Apparently the answer is "no".

I posted the book that information is in.

What? Hogwash!! You did NOT post a book.

What you posted was an opportunity for me to present scribd.com with my credit card info. After giving that info I'd presumably have the opportunity to wade through N pages of a book, all to find a claim which may or may not correspond to your claim(s) and may or may not be based on any evidence. Have YOU given scribd YOUR credit card info? Does it let you copy-paste excerpts once you do?

I have often posted excerpts from print sources I reference on message-boards. More often than not, typing the first several words of the excerpt into Google will save me time: it calls up a page with the longer excerpt which I can then copy and paste. If you don't care enough about your claim to do this, I think we should go with Elixir's summary of your "evidence."

 

[untermensche]

This took me three seconds to find. I gave you the title and author:

https://libcom.org/files/25020337-The-Anarchist-Collective-Sam-Dolgoff_0.pdf

The first measure in the collectivization o f the Barcelona street railways was to discharge the excessively paid directors and company stooges. The saving was considerable.

It is no simple matter to collectivize and place on firm foundations an industry employing almost a quarter o f a million textile workers in scores of factories scattered in numerous cities. But the Barcelona syndicalist textile union accomplished this feat in a short time. It was a tremendously significant experiment. The dictatorship o f the bosses was toppled, and wages, working conditions and production were determined by the workers and their elected delegates. All functionaries had to carry out the instructions o f the membership and report back directly to the men on the job and union meetings. The collectivization o f the textile industry shatters once and for all the legend that the workers are incapable o f administrating a great and complex corporation.

Collectivization brought better conditions for the workers. The 60 hour work week in some factories was cut to 40. Wages were more equalized. Overtime work was abolished, and weekly wages increased from 68 to 78 pesetas. Wage rates were fixed by the workers themselves at union meetings.

Sexual discrimination was abolished—equal pay for both men and women and the fam ily wage prevailed. Workers twenty-four years o f age and over received 400 pesetas m onthly, plus 50 pesetas for each o f their dependents, even if they were not related and did not previously work in the same industry. The greatest innovation was the construction of a new factory fo r optical apparatuses and instruments. The whole operation was financed by the voluntary contributions o f the workers. In a short time the factory turned out opera glasses, telemeters, binoculars, surveying instruments, industrial glassware in different colors, and certain scientific instruments.

All the hospitals’ doctors were paid 500 pesetas a month fo r three hours work per day. There was no private practice (for them). Since a skilled manual worker drew 350 to 400 pesetas a month for seven hours work per day, the reader can draw his own conclusions.

Another achievement was the opening o f a new, up-to-date optical school.. . . The workers had every reason to be proud o f these achievements. What private capitalists failed to do was accomplished by the creative capacity o f the members o f the Optical Workers’ Union o f the CNT.

 

[Swammerdami]

This took me three seconds to find.

See how easy it is? Next time do you think you can bring yourself to invest those 3 seconds earlier? Or do you feel that somehow you "score points" with a less helpful approach?

 

[untermensche]

The Spanish Anarchists were just an initial experiment.

It was interrupted by the need to defend against violent attack from some of the worst people in modern history. Hitler and Stalin to name two.

To focus on the Spanish experiment is to merely see the first struggles towards Anarchism.

A lot of the ideas of the Spanish Anarchists in the 1930's took the US capitalists decades more to even begin to discuss, like equal rights for women.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/anarchism/

 

[untermensche]

This took me three seconds to find.

See how easy it is? Next time do you think you can bring yourself to invest those 3 seconds earlier? Or do you feel that somehow you "score points" with a less helpful approach?

I was running to work and found the name and author quickly.

You didn't even try to find it.

 

[Swammerdami]

I'm glad this thread was "hijacked." Spanish Anarchism is far more interesting a topic than Liz Cheney!

And a big thanks to untermensche who finally posted a link to a useful source. I have a tab opened to the book and may eventually skim through it. (But my To-Do list is very long.)

But interaction among TFTers is also interesting, and arguably more relevant to whatever than Spanish Anarchism.

I did not take sides in the sub-debate about Anarchism except to note that attributing the inequities in ancient feudal or oligarchic societies to "capitalism" was a confusing Humpty-Dumptyist reductionism. (One of us has also confused another thread with Humpty-Dumptyist notions of "information" and "color.")

In fact it was I who wrote, before any evidence was presented

"Spanish Anarchism may have been a joyful movement, worthy of admiration and emulation."​

For which I received the less-than-encouraging response

"A man born blind cannot know what it is like to look at a sunset."​

This took me three seconds to find.

See how easy it is? Next time do you think you can bring yourself to invest those 3 seconds earlier? Or do you feel that somehow you "score points" with a less helpful approach?

I was running to work and found the name and author quickly.

You didn't even try to find it.

Of course I didn't try to find YOUR source.

As for the excuse that you were "running to work," the following was posted more than a day before your eventual response:

But do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"?

By the time you were 30 hours late for work, it might have been simpler to call in sick!


But Kudos to untermensche for being able to extract three relevant excerpts from his source, all in less than three seconds!

 

[Elixir]

I posted the book that information is in.

What? Hogwash!! You did NOT post a book.

Reminds me of debunking young earth creationists, who really represent the Black Knights of internet argument.

"I have already proven evolution to be but the devil's deception. See my previous posts in another thread. But if thou art born blind, then 'tis to no avail."

 

[untermensche]

I'm glad this thread was "hijacked." Spanish Anarchism is far more interesting a topic than Liz Cheney!

And a big thanks to untermensche who finally posted a link to a useful source. I have a tab opened to the book and may eventually skim through it. (But my To-Do list is very long.)

But interaction among TFTers is also interesting, and arguably more relevant to whatever than Spanish Anarchism.

I did not take sides in the sub-debate about Anarchism except to note that attributing the inequities in ancient feudal or oligarchic societies to "capitalism" was a confusing Humpty-Dumptyist reductionism. (One of us has also confused another thread with Humpty-Dumptyist notions of "information" and "color.")

In fact it was I who wrote, before any evidence was presented

"Spanish Anarchism may have been a joyful movement, worthy of admiration and emulation."​

For which I received the less-than-encouraging response

"A man born blind cannot know what it is like to look at a sunset."​

I was running to work and found the name and author quickly.

You didn't even try to find it.

Of course I didn't try to find YOUR source.

As for the excuse that you were "running to work," the following was posted more than a day before your eventual response:

But do you have evidence that "the Anarchists outproduced the capitalists in Spain"?

By the time you were 30 hours late for work, it might have been simpler to call in sick!


But Kudos to untermensche for being able to extract three relevant excerpts from his source, all in less than three seconds!

Yes. The only thing you are consumed by is the claim the Anarchists without masters produced more than the shrunken capitalists with their learned helplessness.

You can't believe it is true.

As if someone told you your god was a fraud.

Anarchism is better than capitalism because it has a moral foundation.

You can't have Anarchism in totalitarian China.

Stalin's communists worked to destroy Anarchism with as much vigor as the capitalists.

To examine structures of power and make moral judgements about them.

To expect all power to justify itself.

This is human progress.