Gender-critical views in England

[Emily Lake]

Honestly, at this stage of my life, you'd think I'd have become inured to the way that men so often just dismiss women's concerns and women's issues. It doesn't affect them, so who gives a fuck. But I just. keep. being. surprised by the sheer callousness and disregard shown toward women sometimes.

I have no problem with "women". I do have a problem with people who use falsified media crap to excuse their assaults on other people's fundamental rights.

Go do some fucking research instead of just assuming that it's "falsified". Just dismissing it out of hand because you don't want to believe it is disingenuous.

And exactly what fundamental right are you talking about?
Do you think that male bodied people with penises should have the right to get naked in front of girls and women without the consent of those women?
Do you think that male bodied people should have the right to be placed in a shared cell with a female inmate?
Do you think male bodied people should have the right to examine the genitals of a rape victim, without her consent?
Do you think male bodied people should have the right to be housed with female domestic abuse and rape survivors in shelters, regardless of how much that traumatizes the women there?

Can you elaborate on what fundamental rights are being denied to transgender people, and why those rights outweigh the rights, safety, and dignity of women?

 

[Emily Lake]

Isn't it a scientific fact that the brains of trans people are wired to the opposite of the sex of the rest of their bodies?

No, it is not. Brains aren't gendered in that way. There are differences between the brains of males and females, that are a direct result of sex-linked hormones. And there are differences in the area of the brain that controls sexual attraction, that is documented as different between heterosexual and homosexual people. But there is no such thing as an innate "ladybrain" or "dudebrain".

Neurosexism: the myth that men and women have different brains
Is the Brain Gendered? A Q&A with Harvard's Catherine Dulac
You don’t have a male or female brain – the more brains scientists study, the weaker the evidence for sex differences

Generally speaking, psychologists are the ones who tend to say there's a difference, and they tend to be psychologists who specialize in gender services. Neuroscientists, however, tend to say that there's no material difference that is not accounted for by 1) size of skull and 2) hormones. There's nothing in the brain of a person who identifies as transgender that is the cause of their identity. Prior to taking hormones, there is nothing in their brains that is in any way materially different from the brains of another person of the same biological sex. And even then, the differences between the brains of the two sexes is extraordinarily small.

 

[Emily Lake]

Of course, sooner than later it always comes down to this: "gender critical" implies revocation of genital privacy.

If my genitals are a private matter, then the sum total of information someone gets from me is "what they see", which is "expressed gender identity".

So to discriminate on what gender identities I may express on the basis of my genitals is discrimination against me on the basis of my genitals. It's a violation of my privacy and dignity to assume what my genitals are, so it seems to me that any such discrimination on the basis of gender identity is a violation of dignity and privacy.

This is BS. You can express yourself however you want, and more power to you. I don't think there should be any restrictions on what you wear, your mannerisms, or any personal expression whatsoever on the basis of your genitalia.

On the other hand, those personal expressions do not OVERRIDE biological sex, and they do not - and should not - give you (or anyone else) the right to ignore the sexual and bodily boundaries of other people. Just because you wish to dress like and comport yourself as a woman does not actually *make* you a woman, and your gender identity does not - and should not - give you the right to be naked in the presence of females who did not directly consent to your nudity. IT doesn't give you or anyone else the right to displace females, or to make females uncomfortable, or to rob females of our safe spaces or our dignity.

You can express whatever gender identity you feel yourself to be. I 100% support you in that. But your identity does not trump reality. Having the gender identity of a woman doesn't actually make you female.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yes, people are all about the science. Until an actual scientist shows up to point out that science does not, in fact, blindly endorse all of their regressive social beliefs.

As opposed to those "progressive" beliefs like if a young male likes ponies and dolls, he must actually be a girl? Or if a young female likes wearing jeans and climbing trees, she must really be a boy? Or the "progressive" belief that lesbians should submit to getting fucked by males, because those males "identify as women" and think they have a female penis? Or the "progressive" belief that women's boundaries and dignity should be tossed aside in favor of affirming the feelings of males?

Exactly what "regressive" social beliefs are you talking about? Is it the "regressive" belief that women should have the right to define their own sexual and bodily boundaries? The "regressive" idea that a person's biological sex should not be a barrier to them expressing themselves however they please, and that the dogma that boys like blue and girls like pink is a confining and damaging stereotype? The "regressive" idea that a masculine woman is still a woman, and no less of a woman for it? And that a feminine man is still a man, and no less of a man for being feminine?

 

[Emily Lake]

Actual scientists do understand intersex conditions a lot better, though, and the very important differences between sex and gender as well.

Intersex has nothing at all to do with gender identity. Furthermore, intersex people are exclusively either male or female - they are not a third sex, nor are they some in-between sex.

 

[ZiprHead]

Yes, people are all about the science. Until an actual scientist shows up to point out that science does not, in fact, blindly endorse all of their regressive social beliefs.

As opposed to those "progressive" beliefs like if a young male likes ponies and dolls, he must actually be a girl? Or if a young female likes wearing jeans and climbing trees, she must really be a boy? Or the "progressive" belief that lesbians should submit to getting fucked by males, because those males "identify as women" and think they have a female penis? Or the "progressive" belief that women's boundaries and dignity should be tossed aside in favor of affirming the feelings of males?

WTAF???

 

[Trausti]

Yes, people are all about the science. Until an actual scientist shows up to point out that science does not, in fact, blindly endorse all of their regressive social beliefs.

As opposed to those "progressive" beliefs like if a young male likes ponies and dolls, he must actually be a girl? Or if a young female likes wearing jeans and climbing trees, she must really be a boy? Or the "progressive" belief that lesbians should submit to getting fucked by males, because those males "identify as women" and think they have a female penis? Or the "progressive" belief that women's boundaries and dignity should be tossed aside in favor of affirming the feelings of males?

WTAF???

Before we had tomboys.

Then we had lesbians.

Now we have pre-op transgenders.

Progress!

 

[Toni]

Yes, people are all about the science. Until an actual scientist shows up to point out that science does not, in fact, blindly endorse all of their regressive social beliefs.

As opposed to those "progressive" beliefs like if a young male likes ponies and dolls, he must actually be a girl? Or if a young female likes wearing jeans and climbing trees, she must really be a boy? Or the "progressive" belief that lesbians should submit to getting fucked by males, because those males "identify as women" and think they have a female penis? Or the "progressive" belief that women's boundaries and dignity should be tossed aside in favor of affirming the feelings of males?

Exactly what "regressive" social beliefs are you talking about? Is it the "regressive" belief that women should have the right to define their own sexual and bodily boundaries? The "regressive" idea that a person's biological sex should not be a barrier to them expressing themselves however they please, and that the dogma that boys like blue and girls like pink is a confining and damaging stereotype? The "regressive" idea that a masculine woman is still a woman, and no less of a woman for it? And that a feminine man is still a man, and no less of a man for being feminine?

None of those (bolded) are 'progressive' beliefs. Some of them are, however, things that I heard from my very conservative family members, classmates and teachers while I was a kid. Note: my world when I was a kid did not recognize any notion such as being transgendered, etc.

 

[Trausti]

Yes, people are all about the science. Until an actual scientist shows up to point out that science does not, in fact, blindly endorse all of their regressive social beliefs.

As opposed to those "progressive" beliefs like if a young male likes ponies and dolls, he must actually be a girl? Or if a young female likes wearing jeans and climbing trees, she must really be a boy? Or the "progressive" belief that lesbians should submit to getting fucked by males, because those males "identify as women" and think they have a female penis? Or the "progressive" belief that women's boundaries and dignity should be tossed aside in favor of affirming the feelings of males?

Exactly what "regressive" social beliefs are you talking about? Is it the "regressive" belief that women should have the right to define their own sexual and bodily boundaries? The "regressive" idea that a person's biological sex should not be a barrier to them expressing themselves however they please, and that the dogma that boys like blue and girls like pink is a confining and damaging stereotype? The "regressive" idea that a masculine woman is still a woman, and no less of a woman for it? And that a feminine man is still a man, and no less of a man for being feminine?

None of those (bolded) are 'progressive' beliefs. Some of them are, however, things that I heard from my very conservative family members, classmates and teachers while I was a kid. Note: my world when I was a kid did not recognize any notion such as being transgendered, etc.

Maybe this is what Emily means? Non-Woke parents are not forcing this on their four-year old kids.

 

[J842P]

Yes, people are all about the science. Until an actual scientist shows up to point out that science does not, in fact, blindly endorse all of their regressive social beliefs.

As opposed to those "progressive" beliefs like if a young male likes ponies and dolls, he must actually be a girl? Or if a young female likes wearing jeans and climbing trees, she must really be a boy? Or the "progressive" belief that lesbians should submit to getting fucked by males, because those males "identify as women" and think they have a female penis? Or the "progressive" belief that women's boundaries and dignity should be tossed aside in favor of affirming the feelings of males?

Exactly what "regressive" social beliefs are you talking about? Is it the "regressive" belief that women should have the right to define their own sexual and bodily boundaries? The "regressive" idea that a person's biological sex should not be a barrier to them expressing themselves however they please, and that the dogma that boys like blue and girls like pink is a confining and damaging stereotype? The "regressive" idea that a masculine woman is still a woman, and no less of a woman for it? And that a feminine man is still a man, and no less of a man for being feminine?

None of those (bolded) are 'progressive' beliefs. Some of them are, however, things that I heard from my very conservative family members, classmates and teachers while I was a kid. Note: my world when I was a kid did not recognize any notion such as being transgendered, etc.

Did you not notice the scare quotes?

 

[Toni]

Honestly, at this stage of my life, you'd think I'd have become inured to the way that men women so often just dismiss women's trans people's concerns and women's trans people's issues. It doesn't affect them, so who gives a fuck. But I just. keep. being. surprised by the sheer callousness and disregard shown toward women trans people sometimes.

Works this way too.

No, it really doesn't. Because those trans people's issues DIRECTLY affect women. Passing laws that allow penis-havers to be placed in shared cells in prison with women DIRECTLY affects women. Passing policies that insist that a male-bodied, testosterone-fueled person is allowed to compete against girls in sports DIRECTLY affects women. Policies that allow men who self-declare themselves to feel like women be counted as women for the purposes of statistics, pay gap measurements, and representation in business and politics DIRECTLY affects women.

But sure, go ahead and lecture me on how I'm not being nice enough, and how women are just the worstest, not letting those men have their way. That person with a penis over there? Yeah, he wants to see me naked. And well, he said the magic words, so now I am expected to let him look at me naked, because he's a woman too. .

Here is where things are a little tricky for me.

I do fully support trans rights ...but I'm a little uncomfortable with some of the situations that are mentioned here. Should pre-surgical transwomen be housed with cis-women without the consent of both? I see potential for trauma for the transwoman if she is forbidden a place in a women's shelter and I see the potential for trauma for cis women housed with a presurgery transwoman in such a way that they have occasion to see one another without their clothing.

I don't think there are men out there who are declaring themselves female so that they can get a look at a woman's private bits in a shelter or jail, etc.

I don't think that there are boys/men out there who are claiming to be trans so that they can earn a spot on a girls/womans sports team. I do have some concerns--which may be totally unfounded--about girls and women who have only recently been allowed to compete at elite levels being pushed aside by individuals who have had years of any advantage male hormones and coaching might have given them. When I was a girl, there were zero track or basketball teams for girls until I was a senior in high school. Basketball for girls was 'half court.' So, getting to see girls and women play sports and play them well is a pretty big issue for me. I worry--possibly unnecessarily--that girls will be pushed aside. Again. This worry is not anti-trans so much as a strong concern about (cis)girls and women being pushed aside. Again.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yes, people are all about the science. Until an actual scientist shows up to point out that science does not, in fact, blindly endorse all of their regressive social beliefs.

As opposed to those "progressive" beliefs like if a young male likes ponies and dolls, he must actually be a girl? Or if a young female likes wearing jeans and climbing trees, she must really be a boy? Or the "progressive" belief that lesbians should submit to getting fucked by males, because those males "identify as women" and think they have a female penis? Or the "progressive" belief that women's boundaries and dignity should be tossed aside in favor of affirming the feelings of males?

Exactly what "regressive" social beliefs are you talking about? Is it the "regressive" belief that women should have the right to define their own sexual and bodily boundaries? The "regressive" idea that a person's biological sex should not be a barrier to them expressing themselves however they please, and that the dogma that boys like blue and girls like pink is a confining and damaging stereotype? The "regressive" idea that a masculine woman is still a woman, and no less of a woman for it? And that a feminine man is still a man, and no less of a man for being feminine?

None of those (bolded) are 'progressive' beliefs. Some of them are, however, things that I heard from my very conservative family members, classmates and teachers while I was a kid. Note: my world when I was a kid did not recognize any notion such as being transgendered, etc.

You're right, they're not at all progressive. But they are the concepts being used by trans activists. They are the ideas being given to parents of toddlers and pre-pubescent kids so they can tell whether their child is transgender. They are the ideas that male-bodied people who identify as lesbians use when discussing the challenges of getting female-bodied lesbians to have sex with them. They are the concepts being upheld by judges who rule that girls in high school do not have a right to visual privacy from males in their showers and locker rooms.

 

[Emily Lake]

No, it really doesn't. Because those trans people's issues DIRECTLY affect women. Passing laws that allow penis-havers to be placed in shared cells in prison with women DIRECTLY affects women. Passing policies that insist that a male-bodied, testosterone-fueled person is allowed to compete against girls in sports DIRECTLY affects women. Policies that allow men who self-declare themselves to feel like women be counted as women for the purposes of statistics, pay gap measurements, and representation in business and politics DIRECTLY affects women.

But sure, go ahead and lecture me on how I'm not being nice enough, and how women are just the worstest, not letting those men have their way. That person with a penis over there? Yeah, he wants to see me naked. And well, he said the magic words, so now I am expected to let him look at me naked, because he's a woman too. .

Here is where things are a little tricky for me.

I do fully support trans rights ...but I'm a little uncomfortable with some of the situations that are mentioned here. Should pre-surgical transwomen be housed with cis-women without the consent of both? I see potential for trauma for the transwoman if she is forbidden a place in a women's shelter and I see the potential for trauma for cis women housed with a presurgery transwoman in such a way that they have occasion to see one another without their clothing.

I don't think there are men out there who are declaring themselves female so that they can get a look at a woman's private bits in a shelter or jail, etc.

I don't think that there are boys/men out there who are claiming to be trans so that they can earn a spot on a girls/womans sports team. I do have some concerns--which may be totally unfounded--about girls and women who have only recently been allowed to compete at elite levels being pushed aside by individuals who have had years of any advantage male hormones and coaching might have given them. When I was a girl, there were zero track or basketball teams for girls until I was a senior in high school. Basketball for girls was 'half court.' So, getting to see girls and women play sports and play them well is a pretty big issue for me. I worry--possibly unnecessarily--that girls will be pushed aside. Again. This worry is not anti-trans so much as a strong concern about (cis)girls and women being pushed aside. Again.

I support the right of transgender people to be free from discrimination in employment, access to housing, medical care, and similar such. Those are rights that everyone should have.

And I am very happy to have accommodations for transgender people made in prisons, shelters, schools, etc... on a case by case basis. But not as a right or an entitlement.

I am, however, very strongly opposed to self-identification being the only measure of a person being granted acceptance as the opposite sex. I'm quite displeased with... for example...
Highest paid female CEO is actually male
Two Female District Leaders in in NY are Male - Melissa Sklarz and Emilia Decaudin
Torrey Peters, longlisted for Women's Prize For Fiction is a male

There are other cases where males are taking women's awards and positions, but I just don't feel like looking them all up now.

 

[Metaphor]

I think it's interesting that you are so earnest to paint yourself as not discriminating against anyone, when at the end of the day, you're here to defend abusers like Forstater ...

 

[Emily Lake]

I think it's interesting that you are so earnest to paint yourself as not discriminating against anyone, when at the end of the day, you're here to defend abusers like Forstater and "out" trans people without their consent. You're not doing anything to protect little girls in bathrooms in this post. You are defending Maya Forstater, by attacking and violating the privacy of Martine Rothblatt, Emilia Decautin, and Torrey Peters without their consent. You're not a "hero". Sorry. You want to be seen as a white knight, do some actual good in the world.

How the holy hell is Forstater an "abuser" in any way?

And how the fuck am I "outing" transgender people who are openly trans?

But hey - "progress" is displacing females in society these days so, you know, you do you I guess.

No - scratch that. Men doing men without any consideration for women is what has gotten us to a porn-saturated, regressive stereoytped, gender role enforcement happy world where males can be housed with females in prison just by saying magic words in the first place. So fuck that, I'm not going to "play nice" or "smile" just so that men get their way.

I'm done - DONE - trying to mollify men who are so eager and content to sacrifice women.

 

[Emily Lake]

Saying that humans can't change sex is somehow "abuse"... but let me guess... you think that all of this is just fine?

Threats of Violence and Violent Imagery

 

[Politesse]

Saying that humans can't change sex is somehow "abuse"... but let me guess... you think that all of this is just fine?

Threats of Violence and Violent Imagery

Jesus Christ, no. I don't support abuse, harassment, or misogyny against anyone, cis-, trans-, or otherwise. You're the one trying to make special exceptions to the rule.

 

[Emily Lake]

Saying that humans can't change sex is somehow "abuse"... but let me guess... you think that all of this is just fine?

Threats of Violence and Violent Imagery

Jesus Christ, no. I don't support abuse, harassment, or misogyny against anyone, cis-, trans-, or otherwise. You're the one trying to make special exceptions to the rule.

I'm not making any exceptions. You mocked the court decision for Forstater, and cast her as a fascist for actually accepting science fact rather than gender ideology. I list out some of the negative impacts to women that are occurring as a result of that ideology... and you dismiss them out of hand as "right wing nonsense" and called it "falsified media crap" and claimed that I was using that "falsified crap" as a way to attack transpeople's fundamental rights. And even though I gave you a pretty good run-down of what "gender critical" actually means... you still frame it as a "regressive social belief".

You seem quite happy to just toss around insinuations of malice while apparently knowing nothing at all about the actual real impacts this is having on women. You get all high and mighty about protecting transgender people's rights... but you can't be bothered to actually be clear about what those rights are? No rejoinder of any substance, just gonna denigrate me (and other women while you're at it) because hey - transgender rights!

Do you even know what "rights" are being sought? Have you bothered to actually think through the effects of those "rights"?

 

[Politesse]

I'm not making any exceptions.

Attacking trans people is attacking women. Even if we accept your argument that a person has no right to determine their own gender, the trans identity includes people erroneously assigned female at birth as well as those assigned male.

 

[Metaphor]

I'm not making any exceptions.

Attacking trans people is attacking women. Even if we accept your argument that a person has no right to determine their own gender, the trans identity includes people erroneously assigned female at birth as well as those assigned male.

Nobody in the history of the universe has ever been assigned a gender at birth.