Aboriginal Civil Disobedience

[Jimmy Higgins]

We aren't talking about ornate and intricate slabs of marble. We are talking something small. Maybe even a sign indicating hundreds of children are buried here.

How do know there wasn't, a hundred years ago?
I'm not saying there was, I don't know. But it wouldn't surprise me if the old wooden sign has long rotted away.

Presumably the sign would have been replaced by the Canadian Government when they started absorbing these awful places in the 50's and 60's.

 

[TomC]

We aren't talking about ornate and intricate slabs of marble. We are talking something small. Maybe even a sign indicating hundreds of children are buried here.

How do know there wasn't, a hundred years ago?
I'm not saying there was, I don't know. But it wouldn't surprise me if the old wooden sign has long rotted away.

Presumably the sign would have been replaced by the Canadian Government when they started absorbing these awful places in the 50's and 60's.

I wouldn't presume that. Maybe by then they were embarrassed and appalled and preferred to forget it.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

The genocidal relocation of thousands of Natives wasn't a secret intentionally kept hidden and unaddressed. To be honest with you (super obtuse man) the Native Americans would have had every right to burn the Whitehouse down.

What makes you think that the child mortality at the schools was a "secret kept intentionally"? I see no reason to think the people at the time were unaware of it.
Tom

The parents of the dead children were unaware of it.

 

[laughing dog]

But if you ask me, sure, I say obviously it was very wrong to kidnap and murder children (not all of them were murdered, but what was done was still very wrong).

I think everyone here agrees that the genocidal aspects of those schools was morally appalling.

But the deaths need to be put in perspective. Nowadays we take super low child mortality rates for granted. Things didn't used to be that way. We take nutrition and hygiene and medical care for granted, when it just didn't exist back then. They just didn't have vaccination and tetracycline. They didn't even have aspirin or vitamin supplements or Bactine. This was true for everyone, not just poor kids in a crowded boarding school, although I'm sure it hit them harder. White kids didn't fare any better.

People might be shocked by how much of the inhabited world is an unmarked grave of a child.
Tom

I am very shocked at two aspects of this - the lack of notification to the parents or trible of the deaths of the children and your appalling apologetics.

 

[TomC]

But if you ask me, sure, I say obviously it was very wrong to kidnap and murder children (not all of them were murdered, but what was done was still very wrong).

I think everyone here agrees that the genocidal aspects of those schools was morally appalling.

But the deaths need to be put in perspective. Nowadays we take super low child mortality rates for granted. Things didn't used to be that way. We take nutrition and hygiene and medical care for granted, when it just didn't exist back then. They just didn't have vaccination and tetracycline. They didn't even have aspirin or vitamin supplements or Bactine. This was true for everyone, not just poor kids in a crowded boarding school, although I'm sure it hit them harder. White kids didn't fare any better.

People might be shocked by how much of the inhabited world is an unmarked grave of a child.
Tom

I am very shocked at two aspects of this - the lack of notification to the parents or trible of the deaths of the children and your appalling apologetics.

What apologetics?
I'm talking about the facts.

Notification of the parents just came up, I don't know anything about that. I have no idea how much, if any, effort was put into that.

But that subject appears to have been raised because otherwise people couldn't keep their hate on. So we went from child mortality rates to notification procedures.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

You're so adorable when you go full-blown white like that.

How black of you comment like that.
Tom

I really meant that. I respect you more when you don't hold back. Anyhow, the fact that they literally had to use Radar to find the graves tells me they were hidden. The fact that the children were forced to go to these schools because their purpose was to indoctrinate the indigenous people tells me there some foul play involved. The fact that many of the graves are only 3 feet deep when 6 feet was established since the 1600s doesn't help with Public Relations either.

Edit: Then there are the reports of abuse at said schools. (I'm not surprised about that from Catholic churches at all).

 

[Emily Lake]

Huh. I didn't think my comment was so opaque as to create such confusion.

Of course I see a connection between the catholic church and the catholic church. Duh.

The disconnect is in the timing. The events at the heart of this happened a hundred years ago. Neither the perpetrators nor the immediate family of the victims are alive today. Was the church of a hundred years ago in the wrong for allowing this to happen? Yes, certainly. Just as the church of 400 years ago was in the wrong for the inquisition, and the church of 800 years ago was in the wrong for the crusades. I don't think that's in dispute, is it?

But burning down the church in present day doesn't change that history. It's just retaliation. But it's not retaliation against the people who committed those crimes - it's retaliation against an entirely different set of people, people who are not responsible for those events having occurred, and who could not in any way have prevented or intervened in those events.

It's very Hatfield-McCoy to me.

So, the grandchildren and great grand children of victims of the Holocaust should just….feel it’s no big deal to hear people deny the Holocaust? To make anti-semetic remarks? To see images of nazi symbols?Concentration camps? Descendants of slaves should ignore the statues of Lee and other slavers? Ignore their names on buildings and highways? Just play along at plantation theme parks?

I don’t think so.

Do you think the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of victims of the Holocaust should have license to burn down German government buildings?

My Irish ancestors were abused and murdered by the English government. Should that give me the right to blow up parliament?

There's a considerably bit of room in between "pretend it's no big deal" and "enact violence and arson in retaliation". Can you seriously think of no alternatives? Are there limits to the crimes of history that you think justify retaliatory actions today?

 

[Emily Lake]

I'm not a fan of arson, but I'm also not a fan of letting serial abusers go unpunished because "oh, that was yesterday".

The Canadian Catholic Church created this situation when it hid the bodies, and it's doing a piss poor job of doing right by people today. It's understandable that some folks are lashing out.

It's time for the church to come clean and help people find their missing relatives. That's the only thing that will make any of this better.

It's understandable that people are angry and upset - they should be, and they have my sympathy. It's not understandable (to me) that people are supporting and lauding violence and arson in response.

Consider: The US Government created this situation when it repeatedly abused, murdered, stole the land of, forced the relocation of, broke treaties with, and stomped all over the rights of first nations people. The US Government has done a piss-poor job of doing right by first nations today. One could use the same logic employed here and view the US Government as serial abusers who are going unpunished, because those things happened in the past.

Would you support first nations people burning down US government buildings in response to the US Government not having done enough to make things better?

Alternatively: The US Government created this situation when it enslaved, murdered, persecuted, encouraged the discrimination and abuse of, and turned a blind eye to the civil rights abuses perpetrated against black americans. The US Government has done a piss-poor job of doing right by black americans today. The US Government, as an entity, surely qualifies as a serial abuser who has gone unpunished.

Is it justifiable and acceptable for black people today to burn down government buildings in response?

 

[Emily Lake]

Man, it's amazing how people are willing to condemn this act of vandalism whilst completely ignoring the context in which these acts happened. I don't think I could ever be so emotionless and lacking in empathy.

I don't think anyone is ignoring the context in which the acts happened. I'm neither emotionless nor lacking in empathy. But I also have a good brain, and can recognize the the people who committed those atrocities are NOT the people who are being punished by the arson.

 

[Emily Lake]

The parents of the dead children were unaware of it.

Honestly, I don't really follow how that could be. "My kids went off to school, and I never, ever heard from them again. I'm sure they're fine and having a lovely life somewhere else and just don't have the time to visit"?

 

[TomC]

My Irish ancestors were abused and murdered by the English government. Should that give me the right to blow up parliament?

Me too.

Most of my ancestors were poor Irish trash who fled the British Empire and all that abuse. Things weren't all that much better here, what with being Papist and all. And it's not like the Church of England ever apologized to us or anything. Reparations?!? Ha!
I'm still not inclined to act out with arson or anything.

Tom

 

[Toni]

Huh. I didn't think my comment was so opaque as to create such confusion.

Of course I see a connection between the catholic church and the catholic church. Duh.

The disconnect is in the timing. The events at the heart of this happened a hundred years ago. Neither the perpetrators nor the immediate family of the victims are alive today. Was the church of a hundred years ago in the wrong for allowing this to happen? Yes, certainly. Just as the church of 400 years ago was in the wrong for the inquisition, and the church of 800 years ago was in the wrong for the crusades. I don't think that's in dispute, is it?

But burning down the church in present day doesn't change that history. It's just retaliation. But it's not retaliation against the people who committed those crimes - it's retaliation against an entirely different set of people, people who are not responsible for those events having occurred, and who could not in any way have prevented or intervened in those events.

It's very Hatfield-McCoy to me.

So, the grandchildren and great grand children of victims of the Holocaust should just….feel it’s no big deal to hear people deny the Holocaust? To make anti-semetic remarks? To see images of nazi symbols?Concentration camps? Descendants of slaves should ignore the statues of Lee and other slavers? Ignore their names on buildings and highways? Just play along at plantation theme parks?

I don’t think so.

Do you think the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of victims of the Holocaust should have license to burn down German government buildings?

My Irish ancestors were abused and murdered by the English government. Should that give me the right to blow up parliament?

There's a considerably bit of room in between "pretend it's no big deal" and "enact violence and arson in retaliation". Can you seriously think of no alternatives? Are there limits to the crimes of history that you think justify retaliatory actions today?

Do you understand that Germany lost the war and acknowledges the Holocaust? And has taken strong steps to make sure that the Holocaust is not forgotten nor the lives lost there? That they have enacted laws to prevent the rise of Naziism?

I believe that there is a long history of Irish blowing up British stuff in retaliation for how Ireland was treated.

Do you understand that these churches are on the tribal lands of First Nations people? If someone built something on your land without your permission, do you have the right to remove it as you see fit?

Why has not the Catholic Church made a statement acknowledging these deaths and expressing remorse for the lives lost? Or announced that they are mounting an investigation? Or opened its records to help families learn if their family member was possibly buried there?

The Catholic Church has done nothing. Not a damn thing.

 

[Toni]

The parents of the dead children were unaware of it.

Honestly, I don't really follow how that could be. "My kids went off to school, and I never, ever heard from them again. I'm sure they're fine and having a lovely life somewhere else and just don't have the time to visit"?

Are you really that ignorant of what happened to First Nations children?

The children were taken. They did not go off to school on holiday. While they were at school they were forbidden to speak their own language, practice their own religion, have any contact with their families. Their families were not told where the children were taken, were not allowed to communicate with their children. The children were just....gone and their families were powerless to recover their children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system

Do you think that parents forget the children who are gone? That they do not try to recover them? That they do not mourn their loss? These parents were forced to give up their children and never knew what became of them.

 

[Toni]

My Irish ancestors were abused and murdered by the English government. Should that give me the right to blow up parliament?

Me too.

Most of my ancestors were poor Irish trash who fled the British Empire and all that abuse. Things weren't all that much better here, what with being Papist and all. And it's not like the Church of England ever apologized to us or anything. Reparations?!? Ha!
I'm still not inclined to act out with arson or anything.

Tom

Gee, they should have moved to Maryland which was established as a Catholic colony.

Catholics have done right well in the US.

 

[TomC]

My Irish ancestors were abused and murdered by the English government. Should that give me the right to blow up parliament?

Me too.

Most of my ancestors were poor Irish trash who fled the British Empire and all that abuse. Things weren't all that much better here, what with being Papist and all. And it's not like the Church of England ever apologized to us or anything. Reparations?!? Ha!
I'm still not inclined to act out with arson or anything.

Tom

Gee, they should have moved to Maryland which was established as a Catholic colony.

Catholics have done right well in the US.

Your empathy for the poor and dispossessed is noted.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I am very shocked at two aspects of this - the lack of notification to the parents or trible of the deaths of the children and your appalling apologetics.

What apologetics?
I'm talking about the facts.

Technically, you are jabbering about your ignorance of facts to minimize what happened.

Notification of the parents just came up, I don't know anything about that. I have no idea how much, if any, effort was put into that.

Yet, never occurred to you to even bother to find out.

But that subject appears to have been raised because otherwise people couldn't keep their hate on. So we went from child mortality rates to notification procedures.
Tom

No, but I see nothing is going to detract from your mission to minimize this tragedy.

 

[Toni]

Gee, they should have moved to Maryland which was established as a Catholic colony.

Catholics have done right well in the US.

Your empathy for the poor and dispossessed is noted.
Tom

Wow.

In the US, Irish immigrants have faced similar obstacles as any other immigrant group, except, of course, those immigrants who were not white.
They were free to practice their faith, keep their families intact, speak whichever language they chose, vote, hold public office, own land, etc.

Compare this with the treatment of First Nations people in Canada /Native Americans in the US.

 

[Bomb#20]

I believe that there is a long history of Irish blowing up British stuff in retaliation for how Ireland was treated.

Do you understand that these churches are on the tribal lands of First Nations people? If someone built something on your land without your permission, do you have the right to remove it as you see fit?

So who is it you think attended church services at these churches on the tribal lands of First Nations people before they were burned down? British Catholics? Italians? The Pope? You're talking about churches that the local indigenous population used. And you call that "built something on your land without your permission", as though that land were the personal property of the arsonist. If it's the tribal lands of First Nations people, well, does being an arsonist enraged over a long ago crime somehow make you a more genuine First Nations person than being an ordinary parishioner? What, does the circumstance that many of the local Metis converted to the oppressors' religion make their descendants hereditary race traitors who don't qualify to have an equal say over who has permission to have a building on the tribal lands of First Nations people?

 

[TomC]

What, does the circumstance that many of the local Metis converted to the oppressors' religion make their descendants hereditary race traitors who don't qualify to have an equal say over who has permission to have a building on the tribal lands of First Nations people?

That's what this thread is mostly about. Hating Catholics.

If child mortality rates in the 19th century doesn't work, switch to grave markers. If grave markers don't work, switch to parental notifications.

If your goal is to hate Catholic people you'll find a way.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

What, does the circumstance that many of the local Metis converted to the oppressors' religion make their descendants hereditary race traitors who don't qualify to have an equal say over who has permission to have a building on the tribal lands of First Nations people?

That's what this thread is mostly about. Hating Catholics.

If child mortality rates in the 19th century doesn't work, switch to grave markers. If grave markers don't work, switch to parental notifications.

If your goal is to hate Catholic people you'll find a way.
Tom

I don't hate all Catholics. I just hate the ones that do horrific shit.