Why HRW is untrustworthy

[marc]

Say I see a bomb coming. Natural reaction to the explosion is to flinch away, which I do without thinking. The shockwave hits with just enough force to knock my already unbalanced body over and I fall. In my heightened emotional state, with adrenaline pumping, the second it takes to hit the ground feels a lot longer, imperfect memory embellishes it further and I am convinced I went flying back. I tell that to a reporter who repeats my story, which was honestly given, and since there is no video footage of my fall, the reporter only has my first hand account to go on…. Which could probably be said of any eye witness testimony.

So if that is all, then there is not much reason to accuse a report of being intentionally dishonest or even wrong.

 

[ZiprHead]

Loren and Barbos appear to be 'lifting themselves on their own petard'.

They better keep their hands off my petard. Pervs.

 

[Jarhyn]

Say I see a bomb coming. Natural reaction to the explosion is to flinch away, which I do without thinking. The shockwave hits with just enough force to knock my already unbalanced body over and I fall. In my heightened emotional state, with adrenaline pumping, the second it takes to hit the ground feels a lot longer, imperfect memory embellishes it further and I am convinced I went flying back. I tell that to a reporter who repeats my story, which was honestly given, and since there is no video footage of my fall, the reporter only has my first hand account to go on…. Which could probably be said of any eye witness testimony.

So if that is all, then there is not much reason to accuse a report of being intentionally dishonest or even wrong.

Also entirely possible. There are a wide array of things that could have gone on in that moment that makes of it an honestly experienced account of a real attack. He lived; He has a story to tell. Others didn't; Others don't.

An attack happened that scarred and horrified people. Loren apparently wants to pretend it didn't happen because he doesn't like the way that someone experienced it?

I know more about this attack and hate it more, specifically because LP is complaining so much about the account. Congrats LP, you accomplished the opposite of your goal.

 

[barbos]

That is not true. The fact is that the shockwave will have a different shape than the blowout of the blast. Often, they can even be inverted. It all depends on what side tamping exists on, versus what side clear air is on, and how the explosive is distributed and even what shapes the rocks underground where the shell makes contact. A claymore is a bunch of HE, and you can stand practically right behind the thing...

Are you really going to die on this hill discussing the dynamics of high explosives with a combat engineer?

I think you will die attacking his hill.
He is right pointing out that Hollywood depicture of explosions where everyone gets thrown out intact is utterly incorrect.
To get thrown (intact) you need to be subjected to relatively small force for extended period of time. But that's not how military ordinance normally explodes. It detonates and creates violent shockwave with very short wavefront. It does not throw stuff around it just shreds it when it passes.
It can throw you a little, but you will be in small pisses.

Now, if you mix air with flammable gas or aerosole and ignite it then it will produce basically a wind which can throw you more less intact. But that's not detonation.

See that's your problem. You don't understand explosives very well either I guess. Actual explosives do two things. They put out a shockwave, yes, but that shockwave is created by expanding gas.

No, it's actually your problem. You don't understand that amount of gases these explosives produce is actually tiny. Air density is about 1.2 kg/m^3
And what explosives does is to convert all explosives into gas very rapidly. So typical grenade has 100 grams of explosives. That's 0.1m^3 meter of gas, of course it's hot gas, so it takes more - like around 0.5 m^3 maybe.
That's nothing, it will not move anything unless it's extremely close to explosion, and in that case it t will be blown to pieces anyway. Well, not with a grenade. it's too small even for that.

 

[barbos]

Say I see a bomb coming. Natural reaction to the explosion is to flinch away, which I do without thinking. The shockwave hits with just enough force to knock my already unbalanced body over and I fall. In my heightened emotional state, with adrenaline pumping, the second it takes to hit the ground feels a lot longer, imperfect memory embellishes it further and I am convinced I went flying back. I tell that to a reporter who repeats my story, which was honestly given, and since there is no video footage of my fall, the reporter only has my first hand account to go on…. Which could probably be said of any eye witness testimony.

So if that is all, then there is not much reason to accuse a report of being intentionally dishonest or even wrong.

I agree. But having said that, Palestinians do make shit up, and do it routinely.

 

[Jarhyn]

See that's your problem. You don't understand explosives very well either I guess. Actual explosives do two things. They put out a shockwave, yes, but that shockwave is created by expanding gas.

No, it's actually your problem. You don't understand that amount of gases these explosives produce is actually tiny. Air density is about 1.2 kg/m^3
And what explosives does is to convert all explosives into gas very rapidly. So typical grenade has 100 grams of explosives. That's 0.1m^3 meter of gas, of course it's hot gas, so it takes more - like around 0.5 m^3 maybe.
That's nothing, it will not move anything unless it's extremely close to explosion, and in that case it t will be blown to pieces anyway. Well, not with a grenade. it's too small even for that.

Comparing a grenade to a mortar... So honest.

 

[barbos]

See that's your problem. You don't understand explosives very well either I guess. Actual explosives do two things. They put out a shockwave, yes, but that shockwave is created by expanding gas.

No, it's actually your problem. You don't understand that amount of gases these explosives produce is actually tiny. Air density is about 1.2 kg/m^3
And what explosives does is to convert all explosives into gas very rapidly. So typical grenade has 100 grams of explosives. That's 0.1m^3 meter of gas, of course it's hot gas, so it takes more - like around 0.5 m^3 maybe.
That's nothing, it will not move anything unless it's extremely close to explosion, and in that case it t will be blown to pieces anyway. Well, not with a grenade. it's too small even for that.

Comparing a grenade to a mortar... So honest.

You've never seen movies with Stallone?

 

[untermensche]

Say I see a bomb coming. Natural reaction to the explosion is to flinch away, which I do without thinking. The shockwave hits with just enough force to knock my already unbalanced body over and I fall. In my heightened emotional state, with adrenaline pumping, the second it takes to hit the ground feels a lot longer, imperfect memory embellishes it further and I am convinced I went flying back. I tell that to a reporter who repeats my story, which was honestly given, and since there is no video footage of my fall, the reporter only has my first hand account to go on…. Which could probably be said of any eye witness testimony.

So if that is all, then there is not much reason to accuse a report of being intentionally dishonest or even wrong.

I agree. But having said that, Palestinians do make shit up, and do it routinely.

?

The State of Israel is a modern propaganda State, like the US and Russia and so many more.

Any lies from the poor Palestinians pales to the constant lies and distortions from the government of Israel.

Nothing the government of Israel says is the truth.

It is all a huge propaganda effort to paint a very weak enemy as somehow powerful so the government of Israel can continue to steal land and sadistically kill at will and oppress millions.

 

[Jarhyn]

Comparing a grenade to a mortar... So honest.

You've never seen movies with Stallone?

I don't care about any movies involving Stallone. They are not reality. They aren't even very good. They're just ultraviolent kill-fests. I've lost my taste for most such media.

At any rate, that has nothing to do with the conversation.

Not to mention that anything with the force to propel a 10 lb rock fast enough to go through a wall can probably propel a human mass, in circumstances of attenuation, fast enough to end up on their butt.

Would you lot rather that he ended up in the direct shockwave and turned to jelly? Then he wouldn't have a story to tell at all.

 

[barbos]

Say I see a bomb coming. Natural reaction to the explosion is to flinch away, which I do without thinking. The shockwave hits with just enough force to knock my already unbalanced body over and I fall. In my heightened emotional state, with adrenaline pumping, the second it takes to hit the ground feels a lot longer, imperfect memory embellishes it further and I am convinced I went flying back. I tell that to a reporter who repeats my story, which was honestly given, and since there is no video footage of my fall, the reporter only has my first hand account to go on…. Which could probably be said of any eye witness testimony.

So if that is all, then there is not much reason to accuse a report of being intentionally dishonest or even wrong.

I agree. But having said that, Palestinians do make shit up, and do it routinely.

?

The State of Israel is a modern propaganda State, like the US and Russia and so many more.

Any lies from the poor Palestinians pales to the constant lies and distortions from the government of Israel.

Nothing the government of Israel says is the truth.

It is all a huge propaganda effort to paint a very weak enemy as somehow powerful so the government of Israel can continue to steal land and sadistically kill at will and oppress millions.

Palestinian lies insult my intelligence. I prefer Israel over Palestine any day

 

[barbos]

Comparing a grenade to a mortar... So honest.

You've never seen movies with Stallone?

I don't care about any movies involving Stallone. They are not reality.

Exactly! but you keep trying to prove that they are,

 

[Jarhyn]

I don't care about any movies involving Stallone. They are not reality.

Exactly! but you keep trying to prove that they are,

No, I keep trying to prove they are exactly as they are: chaotic, violent, highly irregular events that may or may not cause pushes, shoves, hard blasts, and concussive damage. I'm not claiming they are more than they are. You and LP are claiming they are different than they are, and then using this claim of difference to justify criticism of a piece of media. You criticise this piece of media, because they reported this as an account of an attack. They do not to my knowledge claim it is accurate, merely that the observer was there, and reference it to say he experienced something. The claim I and others here have made is that it is not impossible, though fairly unlikely, that the basic story is accurate and that it is entirely consistent in any regard with being in an attack.

So, do you wish to claim that the witness was not in an attack?

If that is not your point you don't really have one.

 

[laughing dog]

Say I see a bomb coming. Natural reaction to the explosion is to flinch away, which I do without thinking. The shockwave hits with just enough force to knock my already unbalanced body over and I fall. In my heightened emotional state, with adrenaline pumping, the second it takes to hit the ground feels a lot longer, imperfect memory embellishes it further and I am convinced I went flying back. I tell that to a reporter who repeats my story, which was honestly given, and since there is no video footage of my fall, the reporter only has my first hand account to go on…. Which could probably be said of any eye witness testimony.

So if that is all, then there is not much reason to accuse a report of being intentionally dishonest or even wrong.

I agree. But having said that, Palestinians do make shit up, and do it routinely.

So do Russians.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

See that's your problem. You don't understand explosives very well either I guess. Actual explosives do two things. They put out a shockwave, yes, but that shockwave is created by expanding gas. When the wavefront passes, there's decompression and that part actually drags shit behind it, a negative pressure zone behind an expanding ball of gas, so you get hit by a wall, and then pulled behind it, and then you will end up getting pushed like a sail.

But the shockwave does not always pop out in a sphere. Depending on available cavities, the shape of the charge, or the surfaces it explodes against/inside, different shapes of both shock wave and gas will happen.

Which says nothing about whether you can be pushed by the wind without first being killed by the shockwave. He saw the detonation, that shockwave was coming straight at him.

He saw what he thought was the detonation. It happened in a time frame that the human eye doesn't have the bandwidth to differentiate the events of.

If you agree he saw a detonation, then you can't really claim he was lying about being in an IDF attack, at any rate.

I think it's more likely the report is mostly fabrication. Plenty of the reports out of Gaza clearly are.

BTW, Hamas' response to this? "Repair" the street by putting down pavers. That's much more expensive, but it will make it harder for Israel to bomb what's underneath.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

See that's your problem. You don't understand explosives very well either I guess. Actual explosives do two things. They put out a shockwave, yes, but that shockwave is created by expanding gas.

No, it's actually your problem. You don't understand that amount of gases these explosives produce is actually tiny. Air density is about 1.2 kg/m^3
And what explosives does is to convert all explosives into gas very rapidly. So typical grenade has 100 grams of explosives. That's 0.1m^3 meter of gas, of course it's hot gas, so it takes more - like around 0.5 m^3 maybe.
That's nothing, it will not move anything unless it's extremely close to explosion, and in that case it t will be blown to pieces anyway. Well, not with a grenade. it's too small even for that.

I think you're .5 m^3 is high--the primary purpose of the grenade is to convert that energy into accelerating fragments of the casing and that's going to soak up some of the energy. I'd have no problem with .5 m^3 if the charge exploded unconfined.

 

[Jarhyn]

He saw what he thought was the detonation. It happened in a time frame that the human eye doesn't have the bandwidth to differentiate the events of.

If you agree he saw a detonation, then you can't really claim he was lying about being in an IDF attack, at any rate.

I think it's more likely the report is mostly fabrication. Plenty of the reports out of Gaza clearly are.

BTW, Hamas' response to this? "Repair" the street by putting down pavers. That's much more expensive, but it will make it harder for Israel to bomb what's underneath.

You have a hurdles for that claim and position: justify the belief that he could not have experienced something that would have encoded these memories.

I maintain that the experience could have been accurate in a variety of circumstances to a fairly high degree. Various other posters have supplied a more difficult hurdle. You have attempted neither and claimed you have finished the course. But the fact is, you can't even get over your initial claim let alone the actual one you must: that this is a fabrication on the basis of what someone described.

These experiences are the likely result of a vast array of hypothetical experiences, from flinching away from a blast that attenuated in different directions to being actually shoved by the force of indirect fire detonation, necessarily also attenuated.

 

[laughing dog]

He saw what he thought was the detonation. It happened in a time frame that the human eye doesn't have the bandwidth to differentiate the events of.

If you agree he saw a detonation, then you can't really claim he was lying about being in an IDF attack, at any rate.

I think it's more likely the report is mostly fabrication. Plenty of the reports out of Gaza clearly are.

BTW, Hamas' response to this? "Repair" the street by putting down pavers. That's much more expensive, but it will make it harder for Israel to bomb what's underneath.

You have a hurdles for that claim and position: justify the belief that he could not have experienced something that would have encoded these memories.

I maintain that the experience could have been accurate in a variety of circumstances to a fairly high degree. Various other posters have supplied a more difficult hurdle. You have attempted neither and claimed you have finished the course. But the fact is, you can't even get over your initial claim let alone the actual one you must: that this is a fabrication on the basis of what someone described.

These experiences are the likely result of a vast array of hypothetical experiences, from flinching away from a blast that attenuated in different directions to being actually shoved by the force of indirect fire detonation, necessarily also attenuated.

Note that "likely a fabrication" is a tacit admission of the possibility of the truth of the report.

 

[barbos]

I don't care about any movies involving Stallone. They are not reality.

Exactly! but you keep trying to prove that they are,

No, I keep trying to prove they are exactly as they are: chaotic, violent, highly irregular events that may or may not cause pushes, shoves, hard blasts, and concussive damage. I'm not claiming they are more than they are. You and LP are claiming they are different than they are, and then using this claim of difference to justify criticism of a piece of media. You criticise this piece of media, because they reported this as an account of an attack. They do not to my knowledge claim it is accurate, merely that the observer was there, and reference it to say he experienced something. The claim I and others here have made is that it is not impossible, though fairly unlikely, that the basic story is accurate and that it is entirely consistent in any regard with being in an attack.

So, do you wish to claim that the witness was not in an attack?

If that is not your point you don't really have one.

I have had enough with Palestinian lies. They lie way more than Israel and they lie stupidly.
Lying seems to be very prevalent in Arabic countries in general.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You have a hurdles for that claim and position: justify the belief that he could not have experienced something that would have encoded these memories.

I maintain that the experience could have been accurate in a variety of circumstances to a fairly high degree. Various other posters have supplied a more difficult hurdle. You have attempted neither and claimed you have finished the course. But the fact is, you can't even get over your initial claim let alone the actual one you must: that this is a fabrication on the basis of what someone described.

These experiences are the likely result of a vast array of hypothetical experiences, from flinching away from a blast that attenuated in different directions to being actually shoved by the force of indirect fire detonation, necessarily also attenuated.

Note that "likely a fabrication" is a tacit admission of the possibility of the truth of the report.

"Likely a fabrication" as in he made no such observation at all, his injuries were sustained by other means. vs considerably embellished as there's no way he was thrown through the air at all.

For that matter, there's another problem I just realized: His reported detonation height. It's going to be moving way too fast to even estimate that. The bomb is probably falling at 100-200 m/s, meaning it's .005 to .01 seconds per meter--eyes can't accurately locate something at that kind of speed.

 

[bilby]

You have a hurdles for that claim and position: justify the belief that he could not have experienced something that would have encoded these memories.

I maintain that the experience could have been accurate in a variety of circumstances to a fairly high degree. Various other posters have supplied a more difficult hurdle. You have attempted neither and claimed you have finished the course. But the fact is, you can't even get over your initial claim let alone the actual one you must: that this is a fabrication on the basis of what someone described.

These experiences are the likely result of a vast array of hypothetical experiences, from flinching away from a blast that attenuated in different directions to being actually shoved by the force of indirect fire detonation, necessarily also attenuated.

Note that "likely a fabrication" is a tacit admission of the possibility of the truth of the report.

"Likely a fabrication" as in he made no such observation at all, his injuries were sustained by other means. vs considerably embellished as there's no way he was thrown through the air at all.

For that matter, there's another problem I just realized: His reported detonation height. It's going to be moving way too fast to even estimate that. The bomb is probably falling at 100-200 m/s, meaning it's .005 to .01 seconds per meter--eyes can't accurately locate something at that kind of speed.

Nobody's buying what you're selling.

Literally nobody cares whether this guy got some of the details wrong when recounting his story. It's perfectly reasonable and in keeping with both the FACT that the IDF has attacked locations in Gaza where civilians are present; and with eyewitness accounts of coming under attack from non-Palestinians in unrelated conflict zones elsewhere in the world.

You want to disbelieve the story. So you are happy with even the flimsiest rationalisation that allows you to dismiss it out of hand.

Others do not share your desire to disbelieve. They cannot be persuaded by your weak as fuck arguments, because they are weak as fuck.

Thinking up more, weaker, dismissals isn't helping your case, except in your head - where it is already inassailable, so the effort is even wasted on yourself.

Stop digging. It's embarrassing to watch.