American civil war question

[Gospel]

I honestly think America would be much stronger today if blacks in the south were given the authority and support in taking over farms properties and other businesses from the confederacy and slowly but surely ride the south of them almost entirely. Plus it would have possibly avoided the current condition fo the black community being that from the start we were given a sense of ownership. BUT NOOO, LET THE RACIST FUCKS KEEP THEIR STUFF AND SLAVES SET FREE TO DO THE NOTHING THEY WERE ALLOWED TO DO. What a fucking farce.

They created, through engineering, a racial culture of uniform poverty. Why is it so out of the pale to engineer the uniform poverty out of the culture? It takes work, sure, but it only takes a critical mass of access to wealth peppered across a community for it to start gaining traction.

Black Wallstreet was black people's answer that was working until the fucking confederate "brothers and sisters" America failed to dispatch from positions of wealth and power decided it was better to loot & murder its occupants. I can only imagine how much more advanced America would be today if it was not held back by its beloved evil "brothers and sisters".

 

[Toni]

No, the North should have treated the South as defeated and as brothers and sisters, although, let’s be frank, the women were not thought of as beyond their own families’ responsibility. More or less, that was what happened. We cannot, we must not forget that the South was us. They were literally our brothers and sisters. Our founding fathers made a compromise that was/is detestable but one the felt they had to do in order to form our nation.

Today most of us recognized slavery as an institution and the kidnapping and enslavement of people who just happened to be from Africa and the attempted genocide of Indians and the theft of their lands as the unconscionable evils that they were and remain. I say most of us because there frankly are those among us who see these things as necessary and not necessarily evil. Of course they were horrendously evil and we still bear the scars of those evils today—all of us. The scars and the burden and the price of such evil is still visited most heavily on the descendants of enslaved people and on Native Americans today. I am aware that the previous statement is a vast understatement. I simply do not have the words to adequately express the evil and shame that those of us who have benefited from these di not actually recognize that we have benefited because this was all ‘a long time ago.’ Or rather admit it. Obviously those who rail so loudly against CRT feel the deep shame and must attempt to enact laws to prevent the totality of our history from being taught.

Well until the day they are no longer seen as "brothers and sisters" America will remain racist. Those racist "brothers and sisters" were not needed to keep America going. Black people would have happily assisted in not only rebuilding the south (which they did) but running it along with whites from the north. I will never understand why they weren't trusted with that but instead left once more in the hands of their former "owners".

I disagree. We must recognize them as brothers and sisters. We cannot pretend that they are not us, that we are not all people of the same family. Surely each of us has family members that are not merely flawed but actually detestable. That doesn't make them less human beings, even if they are despicable. The ONLY way out of this us/them world view that allows us to treat 'them,' whoever them happens to be is to recognize that they are also a part of us, even if we find that part despicable and detestable. This is NOT the same thing as accepting their behavior or adopting the same world view or view on any issues. None of us, not one of us is without sin, as the Christians would say but I believe it is true. We're all flawed, limited. Somewhere inside all of us is a meanness, a pettiness, a desire to see ourselves as somehow 'better than that.'

That doesn't mean that there isn't a ranking of evil, degrees of horrible.

Not every person in the South was a slave holder or even sympathetic to the Southern causes. Not every Northerner believed that slaves should be freed. Hell, one of the most liberal ideas of the time was that enslaved people should be 'sent back to where they came from' without recognizing that by the time the Civil War arrived, none had been born in any African nation and a not inconsiderable number carried blood of European descent.

The reason that the freed blacks were not 'trusted' with running things (although they were sometimes exploited and 'put in charge' or even elected to office) was because they were not really seen as full fledged human beings capable of education, thought, self governance, the ability to exist outside of slavery. How can one enslave a person if you recognize them as a person, as a fellow human being? I think that you can't and so you must tell yourself that somehow, they are less than you, less human and so that it is only right and just that you treat them as befit their station (a sentiment that was very prevalent throughout the world, whatever that country and that station the higher up on the social ladder believed the other person to be) and their lot in life. There was a huge perversion of religion that allowed white people to believe that God ordained slavery and that it was Christian whites' responsibility to care for those poor black slaves and to teach them Christianity. That their minds were childlike and their morals nearly non-existent. Talk about projection, there!
In order to justify treating those who were clearly as human as white people like livestock, white people had to convince themselves that black people were little more than livestock--making the rape of black people despicable on a different level--I can't even say worse level. There are some things so evil that there simply is no ranking--and slavery is one of them.

Actually I think that the rape of enslaved people is a prime indicator of the recognition that the enslaved people were fully human, despite the big lie of the day that was popularly held that black people were lesser beings.

I think that is a lesson that we must all learn and embrace: we truly are all brothers and sisters. That doesn't mean that we have to like each other or agree with each other. Most of us have family members we detest and are loathe to recognize as family but they are family whether we like it or not.

 

[Gospel]

Toni, how would America be lowering itself to the confederates standards by applying its own laws?

Treason:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

I underlined & bolded the single most important part. all leadership positions should have been changed full fucking stop. But nooo, what happened was the law was set aside for their beloved brothers and sisters because America was still racists AF.

The rest of what you've said amounts to apologetics and outright insane rhetoric. I'm not here for that bullshit.

 

[Toni]

Toni, how would America be lowering itself to the confederates standards by applying its own laws?

Treason:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

I underlined & bolded the single most important part. all leadership positions should have been changed full fucking stop. But nooo, what happened was the law was set aside for their beloved brothers and sisters because America was still racists AF.

The rest of what you've said amounts to apologetics and outright insane rhetoric. I'm not here for that bullshit.

Apologetics??????


I'm not here for bullshit either.

What the fuck do you mean by this:

Toni, how would America be lowering itself to the confederates standards by applying its own laws?

Treason:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

I underlined & bolded the single most important part. all leadership positions should have been changed full fucking stop. But nooo, what happened was the law was set aside for their beloved brothers and sisters because America was still racists AF.

The rest of what you've said amounts to apologetics and outright insane rhetoric. I'm not here for that bullshit.

I'm pretty sure that I said that all of America was racist AF then and it's not much better now.

Do I think that all confederate leadership should have been punished more than they were? OF COURSE I DO. We sure as shit should never have allowed monuments and statues to be erected in their honor/memory nor the southern ideals of slavery held in some sort of glorified nostalgia.

Do I have a time machine where I can go back and imprison Jeff Davis and all of his ilk? Nope. I sure don't.

Do I think that among the many reasons that the US Government failed to try for treason the Confederate leaders, convict them and imprison them and perhaps execute them was racism? I'm sure that was some of the reasons. The rest were pragmatic--if the United part of the United States was to hold, we had to find some ways to make some peace with them, to recognize them as the brothers they were. Or else why bother stopping them from succeeding?

Do I think they did enough to punish the Confederates? Nope. I don't.
Was I alive to change it? Nope. I wasn't.
And I still do not have a time machine to change history.

The best I can do is to do my best to advocate for equal rights, restitution, treating each other like equals for real.

FFS, we watched an outgoing POTUS attempt to overthrow our government with an armed insurrection and a whole lot of us are unwilling to call that out as the treason that it was. And it was treason. And we saw it with our own eyes. If we cannot even see treason NOW, having had over 160 years to think about what treason looks like, then it's really hard to have any hope for humanity.

 

[Gospel]

Toni, how would America be lowering itself to the confederates standards by applying its own laws?

Treason:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

I underlined & bolded the single most important part. all leadership positions should have been changed full fucking stop. But nooo, what happened was the law was set aside for their beloved brothers and sisters because America was still racists AF.

The rest of what you've said amounts to apologetics and outright insane rhetoric. I'm not here for that bullshit.

Apologetics??????


I'm not here for bullshit either.

What the fuck do you mean by this:

Toni, how would America be lowering itself to the confederates standards by applying its own laws?

Treason:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

I underlined & bolded the single most important part. all leadership positions should have been changed full fucking stop. But nooo, what happened was the law was set aside for their beloved brothers and sisters because America was still racists AF.

The rest of what you've said amounts to apologetics and outright insane rhetoric. I'm not here for that bullshit.

I'm pretty sure that I said that all of America was racist AF then and it's not much better now.

Do I think that all confederate leadership should have been punished more than they were? OF COURSE I DO. We sure as shit should never have allowed monuments and statues to be erected in their honor/memory nor the southern ideals of slavery held in some sort of glorified nostalgia.

Do I have a time machine where I can go back and imprison Jeff Davis and all of his ilk? Nope. I sure don't.

Do I think that among the many reasons that the US Government failed to try for treason the Confederate leaders, convict them and imprison them and perhaps execute them was racism? I'm sure that was some of the reasons. The rest were pragmatic--if the United part of the United States was to hold, we had to find some ways to make some peace with them, to recognize them as the brothers they were. Or else why bother stopping them from succeeding?

Do I think they did enough to punish the Confederates? Nope. I don't.
Was I alive to change it? Nope. I wasn't.
And I still do not have a time machine to change history.

The best I can do is to do my best to advocate for equal rights, restitution, treating each other like equals for real.

I'm stating facts. Whether or not you have a time machine is irrelevant. Knowing what happened in the past (and not the white-washed one) should help not hinder any efforts to both understand the issues & work towards making things better in the future. Talking about those confederate-loving fucks as if they are brothers and sisters is not in alignment with what they were/are. Well then again, if black people still aren't considered brothers and sisters to America it would make sense. Because there is no flying fucking way we're seeing confederate-lovers as our brothers and sisters.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

White Southerners didn't invent racism and slavery and genocide. The world's civilizations invented those institutions in the distant past, likely before civilization ever appeared. When institutions are around that long they don't disappear overnight. The world is moving in the proper direction seems to me. There is no perfect direction.

 

[Gospel]

White Southerners didn't invent racism and slavery and genocide. The world's civilizations invented those institutions in the distant past, likely before civilization ever appeared. When institutions are around that long they don't disappear overnight. The world is moving in the proper direction seems to me. There is no perfect direction.

what the fantastic fuck does this have to do with what Lincoln and Johnson should have done with the defeated treasonist filth in the south after the Civil War?

 

[Trausti]

White Southerners didn't invent racism and slavery and genocide. The world's civilizations invented those institutions in the distant past, likely before civilization ever appeared. When institutions are around that long they don't disappear overnight. The world is moving in the proper direction seems to me. There is no perfect direction.

what the fantastic fuck does this have to do with what Lincoln and Johnson should have done with the defeated treasonist filth in the south after the Civil War?

A chief reason there were no treason trials was the worry that they would be unsuccessful and validate the rebellion. The Constitution does not speak on a state leaving the federal republic. It was not until 1869, a year after Johnson had issued a general pardon, that the Supreme Court held that a state could not unilaterally leave the Union.

 

[Gospel]

FFS, we watched an outgoing POTUS attempt to overthrow our government with an armed insurrection and a whole lot of us are unwilling to call that out as the treason that it was. And it was treason. And we saw it with our own eyes. If we cannot even see treason NOW, having had over 160 years to think about what treason looks like, then it's really hard to have any hope for humanity.

I think you added this after my reply. Yeah, the reason why January 6th, 2021 is a thing is that Americans see them as "brothers and sisters". Their flags can legally be flown, their monuments can legally stand, and their organizations can legally operate because they are brothers and sisters.

 

[Gospel]

White Southerners didn't invent racism and slavery and genocide. The world's civilizations invented those institutions in the distant past, likely before civilization ever appeared. When institutions are around that long they don't disappear overnight. The world is moving in the proper direction seems to me. There is no perfect direction.

what the fantastic fuck does this have to do with what Lincoln and Johnson should have done with the defeated treasonist filth in the south after the Civil War?

A chief reason there were no treason trials was the worry that they would be unsuccessful and validate the rebellion. The Constitution does not speak on a state leaving the federal republic. It was not until 1869, a year after Johnson had issued a general pardon, that the Supreme Court held that a state could not unilaterally leave the Union.

Now that's a good point. I wonder what would have happened if the Trials commenced, and during the long process, it was found that they can legally leave the union. My guess is America (Lincoln's) would have been like, "so fucking what you want to do this the easy way or hard way?", then distributed a million are so firearms around the south to all the slaves and say, you want your freedom you must help us take it. Best believe Black Wallstreet would be a beacon of beauty today with a majority black-owned south as its backdrop. They were pussies that quit after their main shooter got shot anyway. Black people had every reason to go for blood looking in the eyes of our suffering children.

 

[Toni]

Apologetics??????


I'm not here for bullshit either.

What the fuck do you mean by this:




I'm pretty sure that I said that all of America was racist AF then and it's not much better now.

Do I think that all confederate leadership should have been punished more than they were? OF COURSE I DO. We sure as shit should never have allowed monuments and statues to be erected in their honor/memory nor the southern ideals of slavery held in some sort of glorified nostalgia.

Do I have a time machine where I can go back and imprison Jeff Davis and all of his ilk? Nope. I sure don't.

Do I think that among the many reasons that the US Government failed to try for treason the Confederate leaders, convict them and imprison them and perhaps execute them was racism? I'm sure that was some of the reasons. The rest were pragmatic--if the United part of the United States was to hold, we had to find some ways to make some peace with them, to recognize them as the brothers they were. Or else why bother stopping them from succeeding?

Do I think they did enough to punish the Confederates? Nope. I don't.
Was I alive to change it? Nope. I wasn't.
And I still do not have a time machine to change history.

The best I can do is to do my best to advocate for equal rights, restitution, treating each other like equals for real.

I'm stating facts. Whether or not you have a time machine is irrelevant. Knowing what happened in the past (and not the white-washed one) should help not hinder any efforts to both understand the issues & work towards making things better in the future. Talking about those confederate-loving fucks as if they are brothers and sisters is not in alignment with what they were/are. Well then again, if black people still aren't considered brothers and sisters to America it would make sense. Because there is no flying fucking way we're seeing confederate-lovers as our brothers and sisters.

You probably have a different kind of family than I do. I really like to pretend that the worst racists and worst fuck ups are related to me by marriage and not genetically but that would include ignoring some unpleasant facts. I stand by my opinion that the worst of the racists in my personal family are not genetically related to me--but they are still family. That does not mean that some of my genetically linked family members are not racist fucks. Unfortunately, we have some of those too.

I have a bunch of racists in my family who are not people I call brother or sister but who I have to claim as cousin, or refer to as my step cousins or my father's step children from (pick a marriage) or my grandmother's third husband who was a member of the Klan (dead now for over 50 years). I cannot forget that these are my family, no matter how despicable I find some of their attitudes about race, among other issues. Some of them have some other pretty despicable beliefs, and actions but let's just keep it to race. I don't like that at all. For some, I simply do not have any kind of relationship with them and haven't since I reached adulthood and had a choice.

But there are other people I grew up with, none of whom would count themselves as racist (even my Klan grandfather didn't think he was a racist) who are otherwise pretty decent human beings--they work hard, and would do just about anything for anyone. But probably more so if the person in need was also white and American born.. And preferably, grew up in the same county.

I think we are fooling ourselves if we do not recognize that most white people have some work to do regarding how we treat other people who may not look like us or speak the same language or with the same accent. And the more the other people don't look like us, the more we don't treat them like us.

And we need to. We need to treat everyone like us. Like our brothers and sisters.

That doesn't mean that we have to like them or want to invite them in our houses. It definitely does not mean that we do not charge them with crimes they have committed, and if found guilty, impose the appropriate sentence. It doesn't mean we have to agree with them or talk to them. But if we don't talk with them--not to, but with, we will never get them to change their minds. And if you haven't noticed: they ain't dying out so we can't count on that.

 

[Gospel]

Apologetics??????


I'm not here for bullshit either.

What the fuck do you mean by this:




I'm pretty sure that I said that all of America was racist AF then and it's not much better now.

Do I think that all confederate leadership should have been punished more than they were? OF COURSE I DO. We sure as shit should never have allowed monuments and statues to be erected in their honor/memory nor the southern ideals of slavery held in some sort of glorified nostalgia.

Do I have a time machine where I can go back and imprison Jeff Davis and all of his ilk? Nope. I sure don't.

Do I think that among the many reasons that the US Government failed to try for treason the Confederate leaders, convict them and imprison them and perhaps execute them was racism? I'm sure that was some of the reasons. The rest were pragmatic--if the United part of the United States was to hold, we had to find some ways to make some peace with them, to recognize them as the brothers they were. Or else why bother stopping them from succeeding?

Do I think they did enough to punish the Confederates? Nope. I don't.
Was I alive to change it? Nope. I wasn't.
And I still do not have a time machine to change history.

The best I can do is to do my best to advocate for equal rights, restitution, treating each other like equals for real.

I'm stating facts. Whether or not you have a time machine is irrelevant. Knowing what happened in the past (and not the white-washed one) should help not hinder any efforts to both understand the issues & work towards making things better in the future. Talking about those confederate-loving fucks as if they are brothers and sisters is not in alignment with what they were/are. Well then again, if black people still aren't considered brothers and sisters to America it would make sense. Because there is no flying fucking way we're seeing confederate-lovers as our brothers and sisters.

You probably have a different kind of family than I do. I really like to pretend that the worst racists and worst fuck ups are related to me by marriage and not genetically but that would include ignoring some unpleasant facts. I stand by my opinion that the worst of the racists in my personal family are not genetically related to me--but they are still family. That does not mean that some of my genetically linked family members are not racist fucks. Unfortunately, we have some of those too.

I have a bunch of racists in my family who are not people I call brother or sister but who I have to claim as cousin, or refer to as my step cousins or my father's step children from (pick a marriage) or my grandmother's third husband who was a member of the Klan (dead now for over 50 years). I cannot forget that these are my family, no matter how despicable I find some of their attitudes about race, among other issues. Some of them have some other pretty despicable beliefs, and actions but let's just keep it to race. I don't like that at all. For some, I simply do not have any kind of relationship with them and haven't since I reached adulthood and had a choice.

But there are other people I grew up with, none of whom would count themselves as racist (even my Klan grandfather didn't think he was a racist) who are otherwise pretty decent human beings--they work hard, and would do just about anything for anyone. But probably more so if the person in need was also white and American born.. And preferably, grew up in the same county.

I think we are fooling ourselves if we do not recognize that most white people have some work to do regarding how we treat other people who may not look like us or speak the same language or with the same accent. And the more the other people don't look like us, the more we don't treat them like us.

And we need to. We need to treat everyone like us. Like our brothers and sisters.

That doesn't mean that we have to like them or want to invite them in our houses. It definitely does not mean that we do not charge them with crimes they have committed, and if found guilty, impose the appropriate sentence. It doesn't mean we have to agree with them or talk to them. But if we don't talk with them--not to, but with, we will never get them to change their minds. And if you haven't noticed: they ain't dying out so we can't count on that.

I'm not talking about what you should do with your personal relationship with your family members. I ain't Doctor Phill bruh. I'm talking about what America should have done with traitors who waged war against America after the Civil War was over.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

White Southerners didn't invent racism and slavery and genocide. The world's civilizations invented those institutions in the distant past, likely before civilization ever appeared. When institutions are around that long they don't disappear overnight. The world is moving in the proper direction seems to me. There is no perfect direction.

what the fantastic fuck does this have to do with what Lincoln and Johnson should have done with the defeated treasonist filth in the south after the Civil War?

Do I really need to explain that to you? Think about it and if you're still stumped I'll try to help.

 

[Bomb#20]

...it wouldn't mean I wouldn't order an assault on a defended position, and it wouldn't mean what subsequently cost us the battle was not my military ineptitude but my failure to order a war crime against the local civilian population.

... War crime my ass, we're talking about people that participated in raping children & selling babies and thought that was worth destroying America for.

And you can tell whether somebody participated in raping children & selling babies and thought that was worth destroying America for by inspecting his street address to check if he's in the local civilian population?

Edit: I don't mean Bomb#20 to get outta here. I like you It's a figure of speech.

I like you too!

 

[Emily Lake]

The ruling entity of a colony is not considered foreign.

Just like Puerto Rico is not considered a foreign country.

Puerto Rico isn't a US colony. The US acquired PR as "spoils of war" from the Spanish. Probably doesn't make that any better, just more accurate.

 

[Gospel]

And you can tell whether somebody participated in raping children & selling babies and thought that was worth destroying America for by inspecting his street address to check if he's in the local civilian population?

Edit: I don't mean Bomb#20 to get outta here. I like you It's a figure of speech.

I like you too!

I have no idea what you're getting at. Are you insinuating that no confederate leaders and soldiers were captured? The law was to try and then execute them for treason after being found guilty. This was done many times but dwindled over time. Meanwhile, the ring leader for example Fuckery E Lee walked free while some of his fighters were being executed. As far as the rest of the south, the only thing I find reasonable is to remove and restrict every fucking last one of them from surving in any governmental copacity. from the police to the judges. That would have been a great time to apoint black people in leadership positions. What happened instead was the status quo was kept with a "promise" to not do as they were before the war and free the slaves. Slaves were free, but then restricted from doing a mutha fucking thing because guess who was still running the south?

Do I have the long-short of it wrong?

 

[Gospel]

White Southerners didn't invent racism and slavery and genocide. The world's civilizations invented those institutions in the distant past, likely before civilization ever appeared. When institutions are around that long they don't disappear overnight. The world is moving in the proper direction seems to me. There is no perfect direction.

what the fantastic fuck does this have to do with what Lincoln and Johnson should have done with the defeated treasonist filth in the south after the Civil War?

Do I really need to explain that to you? Think about it and if you're still stumped I'll try to help.

Yeah, I'm stumped and need your help because you didn't say what Lincoln and Johnson should have done with the defeated treasonist filth in the south after the Civil War. Unless I missed it.

 

[Trausti]

Do I really need to explain that to you? Think about it and if you're still stumped I'll try to help.

Yeah, I'm stumped and need your help because you didn't say what Lincoln and Johnson should have done with the defeated treasonist filth in the south after the Civil War. Unless I missed it.

What could they do? If the Union position was that the Southern states never legally left the Union, then the Confederates were entitled to due process and a jury trial.

 

[Gospel]

Do I really need to explain that to you? Think about it and if you're still stumped I'll try to help.

Yeah, I'm stumped and need your help because you didn't say what Lincoln and Johnson should have done with the defeated treasonist filth in the south after the Civil War. Unless I missed it.

What could they do? If the Union position was that the Southern states never legally left the Union, then the Confederates were entitled to due process and a jury trial.

Executed the Law of the United States of America instead of Pardoning them. Everyone had a stomach for all the atrocities America has commited before, why stop when it's for the right reason? Hmm? Oh I know, because they look like you.

 

[Trausti]

What could they do? If the Union position was that the Southern states never legally left the Union, then the Confederates were entitled to due process and a jury trial.

Executed the Law of the United States of America instead of Pardoning them. Everyone had a stomach for all the atrocities America has commited before, why stop when it's for the right reason? Hmm? Oh I know, because they look like you.

No. If they were acquitted at trial or on appeal, it would have been a political catastrophe; that the Union/federal government was wrong to pursue the war.