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Breakdown In Civil Order

[TWEET]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Fascists continued to pepper anti-fascists with paintballs and rubber balls with law enforcement present. <a href="https://t.co/gdomWigwDv">https://t.co/gdomWigwDv</a></p>— Zakir Khan (@ZakirSpeaks) <a href="https://twitter.com/ZakirSpeaks/status/1425305327910592518?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 11, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/TWEET]

Portland.
 
Like I've said, for some people, if violence and chaos is initiated by authority figures, it's law and order. If it's powerless people protesting injustice and fascism, it's civilization breaking down around us.
 
How idealistically naive to the fact that that VAST majority of homelessness is by intentional choice of a damaged mental state, often brought on by severe drug addiction.
Poverty and circumstance is an extremely RARE source of homelessness... your "solution" would be instantly destroyed by the 80% who are insane in that category. They would eat the 20% who have a repairable situation and turn anything you give them into shit.

He blithely wrote, not only based on no data whatsoever, but indeed blatantly contradicting such data as exist.

Nation-wide statistics may not match my State, Colorado, which appears to have all of the insane ones... This has been attributed by many to the fact that Colorado has had recreational pot for several years. Pot is known to increase the symptoms, or even cause the emergence in those borderline cases of Schizophrenia. Indeed the type of mental illness you commonly (read, always) see in the homeless around here are the "raving lunatic" types that are talking to invisible people. Pot is also a gateway drug, but not in the way the propaganda used to say. Pot is a gateway OUT of opioid addiction. It binds to the same receptors, but is not physically addictive. The drug addicted homeless population that is not already dysfunctionally schizophrenic who are using pot as a cheaper, more available, legal means to get a "fix" are just increasing their likelihood of becoming dysfunctional.
I'm not blaming pot.. but the pot ain't helping the situation with them any, for sure.

I was ranting about a homeless guy that was camping out in the bushes across the street from my house to a super-woke family member that thought it was just disgusting to speak negatively of the homeless - poor victims of society that has thrown them away, and all that. Well, that family member stayed at my house just a few weeks ago. She has a completely different view now that she has seen them for herself.. She said, "I get it now.. there is no helping them. they don't want help, they just as well want the world to burn".

Anyway, I apologize for my use of the word "naive"... it is not. It's just lack of experience with specific areas' situation.
 
Breakdown In Civil Order

I am not certain how increasing the corporate crime investigations will eliminate random shootings? Perhaps you could elaborate?

I am not certain why you consider that a necessary goal for alternatives to old-fashioned policing, given that old-fashioned policing has demonstrably failed to achieve that goal.

If at first, you don't succeed, try something else.

The heavy-handed authoritarian approach is obviously not working, so attempting an alternative is surely worthy of at least sufficient respect not to be branded a failure for not hitting a target that the current approach also cannot hit.

Ah, old-fashioned policing works just fine. See New York City 1994 - 2013.

The decrease in crime over the period you quote had little to do with "old-fashion policing" and everything to do with a demographic change of fewer males 18 to 26-years old in the population because those are who commit street crimes.

Crime actually has probably increased dramatically in that period in the dollar amount stolen because the other segment of the population who commit crimes has increased, the upper class. But we don't police these crimes with the vigor that we apply to street crimes. Witness the reduction in the policing by the IRS or the near-total, only one person, lack of criminal indictments for the criminal acts that caused the Great Financial Crisis and Recession of 2008.

Even if you argue that the upper class has gained their dramatic increase in income and wealth legally you can't deny that much of it was because the wealthy have dramatically increased their control of the government over the fifty years of neoliberalism to make more of what was previously illegal legal. Witness the reduced banking regulation leading directly to the Great Recession of 2008, the increase in the money in politics due to the lifting of any campaign contribution regulations, the reduced control of the stock market because of Congress, single-minded dedication to deregulation -- the provision that the government can't impose any regulation or oversight on derivatives,

So while the increased scrutiny of the corporations and the income tax forms of the very wealthy won't reduce common street crimes there are many other reasons to do these things. Allowing corporations to form cartels, monopolies, and monosomies result in reduced competition and higher prices. Turning a blind eye to income tax fraud by corporations and high-income individuals increase the national debt, reduces the money available for needed programs, and erodes the rule of law. Allowing this level of corruption to go unchecked leaves the losers in society susceptible to exploitation by a make-believe populist, putting an incompetent in charge of the government in times of a grave threat to the country.
 
How idealistically naive to the fact that that VAST majority of homelessness is by intentional choice of a damaged mental state, often brought on by severe drug addiction.
Poverty and circumstance is an extremely RARE source of homelessness... your "solution" would be instantly destroyed by the 80% who are insane in that category. They would eat the 20% who have a repairable situation and turn anything you give them into shit.

He blithely wrote, not only based on no data whatsoever, but indeed blatantly contradicting such data as exist.

Nation-wide statistics may not match my State, Colorado, which appears to have all of the insane ones... This has been attributed by many to the fact that Colorado has had recreational pot for several years. Pot is known to increase the symptoms, or even cause the emergence in those borderline cases of Schizophrenia. Indeed the type of mental illness you commonly (read, always) see in the homeless around here are the "raving lunatic" types that are talking to invisible people. Pot is also a gateway drug, but not in the way the propaganda used to say. Pot is a gateway OUT of opioid addiction. It binds to the same receptors, but is not physically addictive. The drug addicted homeless population that is not already dysfunctionally schizophrenic who are using pot as a cheaper, more available, legal means to get a "fix" are just increasing their likelihood of becoming dysfunctional.
I'm not blaming pot.. but the pot ain't helping the situation with them any, for sure.

I was ranting about a homeless guy that was camping out in the bushes across the street from my house to a super-woke family member that thought it was just disgusting to speak negatively of the homeless - poor victims of society that has thrown them away, and all that. Well, that family member stayed at my house just a few weeks ago. She has a completely different view now that she has seen them for herself.. She said, "I get it now.. there is no helping them. they don't want help, they just as well want the world to burn".

Anyway, I apologize for my use of the word "naive"... it is not. It's just lack of experience with specific areas' situation.

Another element I was not at all clear enough about is that I also was only referring to the homeless people out on the street, refusing the assistance that is available... that was probably an important distinction. Those that are accepting help (placed in housing and receiving all sorts of assistance) are not the insane ones.
The ones that are choosing to be on the streets (in Colorado it is a choice.. there are approximately 3,000 unused beds state-wide, mostly in Denver) are the ones I am saying are raving lunatics.
 
Nation-wide statistics may not match my State, Colorado, which appears to have all of the insane ones... This has been attributed by many to the fact that Colorado has had recreational pot for several years. Pot is known to increase the symptoms, or even cause the emergence in those borderline cases of Schizophrenia. Indeed the type of mental illness you commonly (read, always) see in the homeless around here are the "raving lunatic" types that are talking to invisible people. Pot is also a gateway drug, but not in the way the propaganda used to say. Pot is a gateway OUT of opioid addiction. It binds to the same receptors, but is not physically addictive. The drug addicted homeless population that is not already dysfunctionally schizophrenic who are using pot as a cheaper, more available, legal means to get a "fix" are just increasing their likelihood of becoming dysfunctional.
I'm not blaming pot.. but the pot ain't helping the situation with them any, for sure.

I was ranting about a homeless guy that was camping out in the bushes across the street from my house to a super-woke family member that thought it was just disgusting to speak negatively of the homeless - poor victims of society that has thrown them away, and all that. Well, that family member stayed at my house just a few weeks ago. She has a completely different view now that she has seen them for herself.. She said, "I get it now.. there is no helping them. they don't want help, they just as well want the world to burn".

Anyway, I apologize for my use of the word "naive"... it is not. It's just lack of experience with specific areas' situation.
well i'm also in colorado and my wife works in government social services, so... once again, you're spouting a gibbering load of bullshit.

you may have a single personal anecdote about how a homeless scared you, and good for you, but you're 100% factually wrong in every way in your pathetic attempts to lie about the nature of reality.
 
Another element I was not at all clear enough about is that I also was only referring to the homeless people out on the street, refusing the assistance that is available... that was probably an important distinction. Those that are accepting help (placed in housing and receiving all sorts of assistance) are not the insane ones.
The ones that are choosing to be on the streets (in Colorado it is a choice.. there are approximately 3,000 unused beds state-wide, mostly in Denver) are the ones I am saying are raving lunatics.
wow you're just on a roll with this. is there an award for 'most amount of factually inaccurate crap posted on a single topic'?
the homeless issue in colorado and especially in denver is an economic one. if you haven't noticed the exponential increase in the number of homeless in denver in the last year and a half due to people losing their homes due to having lost their jobs then you're [removed] [not paying attention]
 
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Breakdown In Civil Order

Ah, old-fashioned policing works just fine. See New York City 1994 - 2013.

The decrease in crime over the period you quote had little to do with "old-fashion policing" and everything to do with a demographic change of fewer males 18 to 26-years old in the population because those are who commit street crimes.

Crime actually has probably increased dramatically in that period in the dollar amount stolen because the other segment of the population who commit crimes has increased, the upper class. But we don't police these crimes with the vigor that we apply to street crimes. Witness the reduction in the policing by the IRS or the near-total, only one person, lack of criminal indictments for the criminal acts that caused the Great Financial Crisis and Recession of 2008.

Even if you argue that the upper class has gained their dramatic increase in income and wealth legally you can't deny that much of it was because the wealthy have dramatically increased their control of the government over the fifty years of neoliberalism to make more of what was previously illegal legal. Witness the reduced banking regulation leading directly to the Great Recession of 2008, the increase in the money in politics due to the lifting of any campaign contribution regulations, the reduced control of the stock market because of Congress, single-minded dedication to deregulation -- the provision that the government can't impose any regulation or oversight on derivatives,

So while the increased scrutiny of the corporations and the income tax forms of the very wealthy won't reduce common street crimes there are many other reasons to do these things. Allowing corporations to form cartels, monopolies, and monosomies result in reduced competition and higher prices. Turning a blind eye to income tax fraud by corporations and high-income individuals increase the national debt, reduces the money available for needed programs, and erodes the rule of law. Allowing this level of corruption to go unchecked leaves the losers in society susceptible to exploitation by a make-believe populist, putting an incompetent in charge of the government in times of a grave threat to the country.

Damn, man. Do people feel safe on the streets? Are they concerned about random assaults / shootings? Who cares about that, right? Eat the rich.
 
Fascists continued to pepper anti-fascists with paintballs and rubber balls with law enforcement present.

Antifas (whose origins are as a paramilitary arm of the German Communist Party) have been terrorizing Portland for years, and things have gotten a lot worse since last Summer when Antifas have been rioting for months on end.
People painballing these scumbags are not necessarily fascist just because they oppose Antifa rioters. And in case they are fascist (highly questionable, as Antifas call everybody opposed to them "fascist"), pox on both their houses!
 
Like I've said, for some people, if violence and chaos is initiated by authority figures, it's law and order.
Violence by "authority figures" is sometimes necessary as part of a functioning society:  Monopoly on violence
Where do you get "chaos" from, though? It is your side causing chaos by burning down and vandalizing businesses and government buildings on the regular.

If it's powerless people protesting injustice and fascism, it's civilization breaking down around us.
Rioting is not a legitimate protest. Looting is not legitimate protest. Arson is not legitimate protest. Blocking interstates and occupying city blocks as "autonomous zones" is not legitimate protest. Shooting 8 year-old girls in the head is not legitimate protest.
And left-wing extremists not getting their way all the time is not "fascism".
 
LOL. Why would you believe your lying eyes?

Because it doesn't fit their "Antifa good, everybody they oppose bad" mantra. You read it from Angry Floof, when those she deems "powerless" (but only those on the Left, of course) vandalize, burn, loot etc., they are just "protesting injustice and fascism". How noble and selfless of them. :rolleyes:
 
But we don't police these crimes with the vigor that we apply to street crimes.

Which is why Bernie Madoff got off scot free, right?

Any BS to justify deflecting from violent and property crimes (whether motivated by politics as in by #BLM and Antifa or just motivated by avarice) in US cities that is being largely neglected by the so-called "progressive" DAs like Boudin, Garcon, Foxx, Schmidt etc.
 
Like I've said, for some people, if violence and chaos is initiated by authority figures, it's law and order.
Violence by "authority figures" is sometimes necessary as part of a functioning society:  Monopoly on violence
Where do you get "chaos" from, though? It is your side causing chaos by burning down and vandalizing businesses and government buildings on the regular.

If it's powerless people protesting injustice and fascism, it's civilization breaking down around us.
Rioting is not a legitimate protest. Looting is not legitimate protest. Arson is not legitimate protest. Blocking interstates and occupying city blocks as "autonomous zones" is not legitimate protest. Shooting 8 year-old girls in the head is not legitimate protest.
And left-wing extremists not getting their way all the time is not "fascism".

Legitimate action isn't effective in achieving change. Well behaved protesters are greeted with a condescending smile, and promptly ignored. So fuck off with your "is not legitimate" claim - of course it's fucking not, it isn't supposed to be and your desire for it to be translates directly into a desire not to be in any way aware of the existence of the problems being protested against.

And heavy handed enforcement is futile. The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
 
That homelessness is considered a law enforcement issue, and that moving people on is seen as a solution, would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
Moving them is a solution to clean up particular parts of the city like downtowns or touristy areas.
Of course, that just shifts the problem, so the real solution would be to make it easier to institutionalize them, but that is very difficult to do.

If people are sufficiently poor as to need to commit crimes to survive, they will commit crimes.
And if they steal and rob, they need to go to jail for it.

If (as is the case in most US cities) you spend more on policing to try to solve that crime problem than would be needed to provide the necessities of life to these people, so that crime wasn't necessary for them, then your system is insane and broken.
This apologetics for criminals is insane to me. It's "how he gonna get his money" all over again. Criminals are by and large criminals because they think robbing somebody or burgling a house or shoplifting (especially in a city like San Francisco) is a much easier lifestyle than working 9-5 every day. And in these "progressive" cities it is also quite low risk. Even if they get caught, the DA is likely to give them a slap on the wrist if that.
There was a case in NY where a thug was arrested 19 times, 6 of those for burglaries, but was released without bail each time. He was only kept in jail once he sexually assaulted a little girl in her bedroom.
NYC serial burglar busted for sneaking into sleeping 10-year-old girl’s bedroom, rubbing his genitals on her feet

You think people like that would be upstanding citizens if we'd just give them more money in addition to all the food stamps, Section 8 etc. they already receive?

Fighting crime by making the cops into the biggest, baddest, and scariest thugs out there, in the hope of scaring the criminals into behaving, is only going to work if the criminals are well off enough not to need to overcome their fear of the cops in order to survive. If they are not, they will just respond by doing everything possible to make life harder for the police. And they will always outnumber the police.
And now their tactic is "defund police" aided by their political allies like Cori Bush, AOC and Jamaal Bowman. Because if you defund police, the criminals will have a much easier time.

You cannot force people to respect you. You can force them to fear you, but that's a VERY different thing.
These thugs will not respect police anyway. But in progressive cities they do not even have to fear them, because they know that even when they get busted, the DA is on their side. As are many in the city councils, state legislatures and even the Congress. A Fifth Column basically.

Successful policing isn't even difficult. It's been understood for at least 150 years, and the way to do it is set out in the 'Peelian Principles' adopted for the first modern police force by Robert Peel:
A lot of these principles sound good in theory, but have to be modified in practice. I wonder how Peel would del with Crips and Blood in LA's South Central or Compton ...
 
Legitimate action isn't effective in achieving change. Well behaved protesters are greeted with a condescending smile, and promptly ignored.
So you are justifying burning shit down and destroying businesses and government buildings, because if we should listen to anybody about what kind of change should be achieved, it is violent mobs of extremists, right? Of course, you limit this only to left wing rioters. I do not think you would offer the "well behaved protesters are greeted with a condescending smile" apologetic for January 6th rioters, so why should you do the same for #BLM and Antifa rioters?

So fuck off with your "is not legitimate" claim - of course it's fucking not, it isn't supposed to be and your desire for it to be translates directly into a desire not to be in any way aware of the existence of the problems being protested against.

There are right ways and wrong ways to effect change. Rioting is the wrong way no matter what way I or you may feel about the demands of a particular group doing the rioting. Or occupied "autonomous zones" like in Seattle and Minneapolis.

And heavy handed enforcement is futile. The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

On the contrary, January 6th rioters are being vigorously prosecuted and it is working. But when you don't prosecute, as Portland DA did with Antifa rioters for the most part, you get months of sustained rioting.
 
Criminals are by and large criminals because they think robbing somebody or burgling a house or shoplifting (especially in a city like San Francisco) is a much easier lifestyle than working 9-5 every day.
ok so let's take that as read for the sake of discussion.
how is that a refutation of the fact that providing these people with a moderate amount of resources so that they don't feel compelled to commit crime is a more effective way to reduce crime than a militarized police force which punishes them for having done crime?

You think people like that would be upstanding citizens if we'd just give them more money in addition to all the food stamps, Section 8 etc. they already receive?
firstly, food stamps and section 8 and "etc" generally result in having the economic resource to exist barely above the poverty line, IE those things are baaaaaarely a scratch above living in an alley and eating out of a dumpster.

secondly, there is a certain percentage of the human population which is just... fucked up. this is true of the rich, the poor, every strand of humanity in every direction. that sometimes those fucked up people are poor is no more the fault of 'the poor' than harvey weinstein is the fault of 'the rich'. though of course environmental factors can make such inclinations far worse.

thirdly, for the most part the answer to your question is yes. if you took every burglar and repeat-offender petty criminal and just gave them a house or a decent apartment and 45k a year, petty crime would plummet.
you probably wouldn't see an immediate change in social and cultural behavior from that segment of the population, because unfortunately humans tend to be highly susceptible to behavior and attitudes learned up to their early teens and it's extremely difficult for them to unlearn those, but within a generation or two you'd see a radical change in that portion of society.

And now their tactic is "defund police" aided by their political allies like Cori Bush, AOC and Jamaal Bowman. Because if you defund police, the criminals will have a much easier time.
an easier time of what?
"defund the police" as a political movement wants to take away military gear from cops, and to shift public spending away from the current paradigm of "assault, subdue, punish" and put money into "assist, rehabilitate, provide".
how does that change how easy it is to commit crime?
 
ok so let's take that as read for the sake of discussion.
how is that a refutation of the fact that providing these people with a moderate amount of resources so that they don't feel compelled to commit crime is a more effective way to reduce crime than a militarized police force which punishes them for having done crime?


firstly, food stamps and section 8 and "etc" generally result in having the economic resource to exist barely above the poverty line, IE those things are baaaaaarely a scratch above living in an alley and eating out of a dumpster.

secondly, there is a certain percentage of the human population which is just... fucked up. this is true of the rich, the poor, every strand of humanity in every direction. that sometimes those fucked up people are poor is no more the fault of 'the poor' than harvey weinstein is the fault of 'the rich'. though of course environmental factors can make such inclinations far worse.

thirdly, for the most part the answer to your question is yes. if you took every burglar and repeat-offender petty criminal and just gave them a house or a decent apartment and 45k a year, petty crime would plummet.
you probably wouldn't see an immediate change in social and cultural behavior from that segment of the population, because unfortunately humans tend to be highly susceptible to behavior and attitudes learned up to their early teens and it's extremely difficult for them to unlearn those, but within a generation or two you'd see a radical change in that portion of society.

And now their tactic is "defund police" aided by their political allies like Cori Bush, AOC and Jamaal Bowman. Because if you defund police, the criminals will have a much easier time.
an easier time of what?
"defund the police" as a political movement wants to take away military gear from cops, and to shift public spending away from the current paradigm of "assault, subdue, punish" and put money into "assist, rehabilitate, provide".
how does that change how easy it is to commit crime?

Of course the issue here is that "assist, rehabilitate and provide" is very very expensive. Far more expensive than "assess, put down threats, arrest". And there are very few communities that can afford $150 an hour psychologist cops in their community.
 
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