Woke is white arrogance

[Gospel]

Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.

Bruh, you're in a different country so you gotta say it like "I'm a left progressive, Denmark style" then do a dance or something.

 

[DrZoidberg]

OK, it takes about four minutes for Zizek to make a point, and it's incoherent anyway.

You are taking the piss.



A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures....

I'm not seeing how this plays out among white academias. If a white academic acknowledges their privilege, it isn't necessarily a flex; I think it can come across as a genuine attempt to gain some perspective.

(I didn't watch 4 minutes: I gave up after one. He kept wiping his nose and scratching himself. What's all that? Some variation of Tourette's syndrome?)

Awareness of and empathy for other ethnicities, other cultures, other genders, etc. is good. Surely all but hard-core bigots will agree with that. Only the most ignorant white Americans are unaware that their ethnicity gives them advantages in the U.S. Do the anti-Wokers here deny any of that?

Some privileged people are smug or snobbish — that was true long before "Wokeness" became a thing. If they choose to be snobbish about their own "wokeness" instead of snobbish about something else ... so what? And sure, one can find — usually with help from Tucker Carlson or others of that ilk — examples of wokeness gone too far; but again ... so what? Such exceptional exaggerated examples of "embracing human diversity" are not on America's List of Top 100 Problems. Are they?

No, the whole "I Hate Wokeness" movement is just a crusade by the right-wing to make bigots feel better about themselves, and to sell more MAGA apparel.

I'd argue that wokeism has nothing to do with awereness and empathy for other ethicities and cultures. If they did that they'd ask representatives of these other ethnicities and cultures what they'd like. But that's not as fun using them as a baseball bat in a political proxy battle among priviliged whites. It's just something woke people say they care about. I've yet to see any evidence woke people actually care about brown people. What's their action plan? Awareness alone doesn't fix shit.

I don't think the woke want whites to be less priviliged at all. What's the action plan to fix that? Who, who is priviliged, doesn't enjoy being priviliged? I don't think anybody priviliged is willing to do anything to become less priviliged. Discriminatory laws are already gone. In the US they went away half a century ago. Most countries in Europe never had them. So that's obviously not what the wokes are fighting for. If it isn't that, what are they on about? Just having empathy? Gee... wow. What will you do next, send "thoughts and prayers"?

Yes, Zizek probably has some sort of neurological problem. You're not the first to point that out. But it's interesting how your wokeness doesn't seem to encompass sufferers of neurological problems. See how stupid wokeness is? It's an ever expanding sphere of victimhood with fuzzy edges. The woke categories are rigid. But people rarely fit neatly into a category.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.

Who? Who does this? Honestly, if it is just some random fucker who you don't know their name, aren't in any position of power or influence and you are still worried about their behaviour because it might make "your side look bad" fuck 'em and calm the fuck down. I'd rather be concerned about actual fuckers who are in important positions of power and influence and their unproductive behaviour.

Let me know when "woke" becomes like the Proud Boys - don't bother me beforehand.

I see the woke and the proud boys as symptoms of the same problem. Just because wokes aren't murdering people doesn't mean they aren't causing damage. Free speech and free expression is the foundation of western democracy. Wokes are often attacking this. That's not harmless.

I also dislike your tribalism. Being willfully blind to transgressions on your own side isn't a virtue. It's a vice. That's what leads to the increased polarization of our age.

 

[bigfield]

Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.

Your explanation for the term "Native American" is that it has to be an English word so racists can feel good about themselves?

As in:
"American" is superior to "Native American"?
"American" is superior to "Indian"?

The example Zizek gave in the video was pretty funny. One perticular guy prefers to be called "Indian" instead of "Native American" because it's a constant reminder of white people's stupidity. I can get behind that!

There's a page on WIkipedia that gives an overview of this problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

Your explanation doesn't feature at all. At most, it could be inferred by the fact that some indigenous people reject all exonyms, no matter what language they are in. You wouldn't fix this problem by picking a Native American word, either, because you'd be missing the point.

 

[untermensche]

Striving to refer to races or groups of people in ways that are not derogatory to them is this "woke"?

Striving to not hurt other people's feelings, even if you fail, is "woke"?

"Woke" sounds like good stuff.

The only thing bad is the unwillingness to try to find less offensive labels.

I commend the Cleveland baseball club and the Washington football club.

And don't like people who use the term "woke" in a derogatory manner that much.

It is basically a term to allow bad people to feel good about their evil thoughts.

Woke = caring about your fellow man, even if you are just a human and fail sometimes

 

[DrZoidberg]

Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.

Your explanation for the term "Native American" is that it has to be an English word so racists can feel good about themselves?

As in:
"American" is superior to "Native American"?
"American" is superior to "Indian"?

The example Zizek gave in the video was pretty funny. One perticular guy prefers to be called "Indian" instead of "Native American" because it's a constant reminder of white people's stupidity. I can get behind that!

There's a page on WIkipedia that gives an overview of this problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

Your explanation doesn't feature at all. At most, it could be inferred by the fact that some indigenous people reject all exonyms, no matter what language they are in. You wouldn't fix this problem by picking a Native American word, either, because you'd be missing the point.

No, wait... there's an even better way to settle this. Just fuck everybody's feelings. Don't put so much importance on what other people call you. Let everybody use whatever words they want. If it hurts your feelings... that's ok. We don't need to agree on using any terms. This is a stupid pseudo debate in order for one group, the woke's to get to inflate their own importance and feel superior to those who use the wrong words. We just need to get better at tolerating the fuck ups of ignorant people. And it's got to be ok to be ignorant. Not everybody needs to know every cultural quirk of every culture. That's just dumb. And demanding that from normal people is as ridiculous as it is extreme.

I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

In order to be considered a civilized citizen of USA nobody should be required to read that wikipedia page. Nobody. And nobody should be considered a bad person for using the wrong word. How about focusing on good intentions instead? Woke's don't seem to care about the intent. They're more focused on packaging than content. More focused on what can be copy pasted and shared on social media rather than what people are actually trying to do.

And more importantly, just because you use a more politically correct word than someone else, doesn't make you a better person than them. You know nothing about them or why they said what they said.

 

[ZiprHead]

Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.

Your explanation for the term "Native American" is that it has to be an English word so racists can feel good about themselves?

As in:
"American" is superior to "Native American"?
"American" is superior to "Indian"?

The example Zizek gave in the video was pretty funny. One perticular guy prefers to be called "Indian" instead of "Native American" because it's a constant reminder of white people's stupidity. I can get behind that!

There's a page on WIkipedia that gives an overview of this problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

Your explanation doesn't feature at all. At most, it could be inferred by the fact that some indigenous people reject all exonyms, no matter what language they are in. You wouldn't fix this problem by picking a Native American word, either, because you'd be missing the point.

No, wait... there's an even better way to settle this. Just fuck everybody's feelings. Don't put so much importance on what other people call you. Let everybody use whatever words they want. If it hurts your feelings... that's ok. We don't need to agree on using any terms. This is a stupid pseudo debate in order for one group, the woke's to get to inflate their own importance and feel superior to those who use the wrong words. We just need to get better at tolerating the fuck ups of ignorant people. And it's got to be ok to be ignorant. Not everybody needs to know every cultural quirk of every culture. That's just dumb. And demanding that from normal people is as ridiculous as it is extreme.

That sounds like a great way to create a peaceful and prosperous society.

 

[DrZoidberg]

No, wait... there's an even better way to settle this. Just fuck everybody's feelings. Don't put so much importance on what other people call you. Let everybody use whatever words they want. If it hurts your feelings... that's ok. We don't need to agree on using any terms. This is a stupid pseudo debate in order for one group, the woke's to get to inflate their own importance and feel superior to those who use the wrong words. We just need to get better at tolerating the fuck ups of ignorant people. And it's got to be ok to be ignorant. Not everybody needs to know every cultural quirk of every culture. That's just dumb. And demanding that from normal people is as ridiculous as it is extreme.

That sounds like a great way to create a peaceful and prosperous society.

I know you are being sarcastic. But yes, a society with greater compassion and less division. Wokes are social poison. It can only lead to greater division and witch hunts. There's no end to identifying "the enemy of the people".

 

[bigfield]

I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

Are you trying to out-woke me? If I was a better woke I probably would have used this idiotic red-herring on you when you brought up the topic of "Indian" vs "Native American" in the first place.

 

[KeepTalking]

Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.

Your explanation for the term "Native American" is that it has to be an English word so racists can feel good about themselves?

As in:
"American" is superior to "Native American"?
"American" is superior to "Indian"?

The example Zizek gave in the video was pretty funny. One perticular guy prefers to be called "Indian" instead of "Native American" because it's a constant reminder of white people's stupidity. I can get behind that!

There's a page on WIkipedia that gives an overview of this problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy

Your explanation doesn't feature at all. At most, it could be inferred by the fact that some indigenous people reject all exonyms, no matter what language they are in. You wouldn't fix this problem by picking a Native American word, either, because you'd be missing the point.

No, wait... there's an even better way to settle this. Just fuck everybody's feelings. Don't put so much importance on what other people call you. Let everybody use whatever words they want. If it hurts your feelings... that's ok. We don't need to agree on using any terms. This is a stupid pseudo debate in order for one group, the woke's to get to inflate their own importance and feel superior to those who use the wrong words. We just need to get better at tolerating the fuck ups of ignorant people. And it's got to be ok to be ignorant. Not everybody needs to know every cultural quirk of every culture. That's just dumb. And demanding that from normal people is as ridiculous as it is extreme.

I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

In order to be considered a civilized citizen of USA nobody should be required to read that wikipedia page. Nobody. And nobody should be considered a bad person for using the wrong word. How about focusing on good intentions instead? Woke's don't seem to care about the intent. They're more focused on packaging than content. More focused on what can be copy pasted and shared on social media rather than what people are actually trying to do.

And more importantly, just because you use a more politically correct word than someone else, doesn't make you a better person than them. You know nothing about them or why they said what they said.

If you don't want to sound like a conservative to those of us in the States, you might not want to use phrases that the MAGA hats proudly wear on their T-shirts, like "Fuck your feelings". Of course, you are free to say it, and I am not going to go out of my way to prevent you from saying it. I guess that makes me not "woke", and in that I would agree, despite often being labelled as such by conservatives whenever they don't like what I say.

I tend to avoid saying things that piss other people off, unless I am intentionally trying to piss them off. I find, however, that I feel the need to piss people off less frequently these days. I don't think it makes me a better person than anyone, it just makes me feel better about myself. As a wise woman once said:

"Ain't nobody got time for that."

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

Are you trying to out-woke me? If I was a better woke I probably would have used this idiotic red-herring on you when you brought up the topic of "Indian" vs "Native American" in the first place.

You put your finger on the issue. Woke is competitive consciousness. It's about who can show they're the most empathic. Because it's a competition they reduce everything to that which can be compared and quantified, and then they use that as a proxy for being the most empathic and compassionate. Missing the entire point of empathy and compassion. They're so busy being empathic that they stop actually being empathic. Instead they become mean and petty. They become everything they're supposed to NOT be. That's why woke is a social poison.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If you don't want to sound like a conservative to those of us in the States, you might not want to use phrases that the MAGA hats proudly wear on their T-shirts, like "Fuck your feelings". Of course, you are free to say it, and I am not going to go out of my way to prevent you from saying it. I guess that makes me not "woke", and in that I would agree, despite often being labelled as such by conservatives whenever they don't like what I say.

I tend to avoid saying things that piss other people off, unless I am intentionally trying to piss them off. I find, however, that I feel the need to piss people off less frequently these days. I don't think it makes me a better person than anyone, it just makes me feel better about myself. As a wise woman once said:

"Ain't nobody got time for that."

If the wokes could keep it to this, then we wouldn't have a problem. But they don't. They spend time policing other people's words and actions. And that's where it goes from constructive to destructive.

 

[bigfield]

I'm pretty sure that native Americans are more upset about being relegated to reserves and having their ancestors murdered rather than what words you use to call them. There's no culturally sensitive way to paper over that lil' transgression.

Are you trying to out-woke me? If I was a better woke I probably would have used this idiotic red-herring on you when you brought up the topic of "Indian" vs "Native American" in the first place.

You put your finger on the issue. Woke is competitive consciousness. It's about who can show they're the most empathic. Because it's a competition they reduce everything to that which can be compared and quantified, and then they use that as a proxy for being the most empathic and compassionate. Missing the entire point of empathy and compassion. They're so busy being empathic that they stop actually being empathic. Instead they become mean and petty. They become everything they're supposed to NOT be. That's why woke is a social poison.

Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Who? Who does this? Honestly, if it is just some random fucker who you don't know their name, aren't in any position of power or influence and you are still worried about their behaviour because it might make "your side look bad" fuck 'em and calm the fuck down.

 

[KeepTalking]

If you don't want to sound like a conservative to those of us in the States, you might not want to use phrases that the MAGA hats proudly wear on their T-shirts, like "Fuck your feelings". Of course, you are free to say it, and I am not going to go out of my way to prevent you from saying it. I guess that makes me not "woke", and in that I would agree, despite often being labelled as such by conservatives whenever they don't like what I say.

I tend to avoid saying things that piss other people off, unless I am intentionally trying to piss them off. I find, however, that I feel the need to piss people off less frequently these days. I don't think it makes me a better person than anyone, it just makes me feel better about myself. As a wise woman once said:

"Ain't nobody got time for that."

If the wokes could keep it to this, then we wouldn't have a problem. But they don't. They spend time policing other people's words and actions. And that's where it goes from constructive to destructive.

How do you know?

You present a YouTube video from someone else pontificating about "wokeness", and you rail constantly about things you perceive that the "woke" are saying and doing, but you provide no concrete examples of "the woke" actually doing that. I don't know who these "woke" people are that you are talking about. They certainly do not resemble anyone who I know who talked about being "woke" prior to a couple of years ago when the term became a conservative talking point. Maybe it's because the "woke" in Copenhagen are an entirely different group than the woke in East Saint Louis. As far as I know, the "woke" in Copenhagen do not have to be aware of how the color of their skin is perceived by the authorities, and how that affects every public move they make, so that could be part of the problem.

 

[TomC]

Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Oh yes, they are legion.

They strongly remind me of the uber-Evangelical Christian people.

Their noisy, smug, self righteousness is sometimes insufferable. While I recognize that not all Wokesters are like that, enough are to give me a tendency to use Woke as a derogatory.

This is coming from a gay white atheist who was on the board of the local NAACP branch for a couple of years. Who opposes abortion so much I support Planned Parenthood.

If empathetic and civilized behavior was all there was to Woke, I'd be all about it. But it isn't. Not in my long experience.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

So do you believe that posting this thread is not, somehow, a demonstration of your own feelings of arrogance and vanity? Are you not, yourself, telling a large segment of socety what they believe (against their own objections about your mischaracterization) and how that perspective is ignorant and wrong compared to yours? What does arrogance mean, if not that? Especially when your own source is some random Youtube video, not.. you know, an actual meaningful source. This makes it unearned arrogance, the worst kind if you ask me.

If it's a choice between racism-tolerant arrogance and explicitly anti-racist arrogance, I will happily choose the latter.

 

[KeepTalking]

Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Oh yes, they are legion.

They strongly remind me of the uber-Evangelical Christian people.

Their noisy, smug, self righteousness is sometimes insufferable. While I recognize that not all Wokesters are like that, enough are to give me a tendency to use Woke as a derogatory.

This is coming from a gay white atheist who was on the board of the local NAACP branch for a couple of years. Who opposes abortion so much I support Planned Parenthood.

If empathetic and civilized behavior was all there was to Woke, I'd be all about it. But it isn't. Not in my long experience.
Tom

That is just it, empathetic and civilized behavior has nothing to do with woke. Woke is about awareness, not what you do after you gain that awareness. That some people will act in an uncivil manner in an attempt to change the injustice that they see does not mean that it is a bad thing to become aware of that injustice in the first place.

 

[Gun Nut]

Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Oh yes, they are legion.

They strongly remind me of the uber-Evangelical Christian people.

Their noisy, smug, self righteousness is sometimes insufferable. While I recognize that not all Wokesters are like that, enough are to give me a tendency to use Woke as a derogatory.

This is coming from a gay white atheist who was on the board of the local NAACP branch for a couple of years. Who opposes abortion so much I support Planned Parenthood.

If empathetic and civilized behavior was all there was to Woke, I'd be all about it. But it isn't. Not in my long experience.
Tom

.. and "They" are my cousins, and their classmates, who attend classically woke universities this and the past several years... who's politicaly active stances are the precise thing that keep Democrats from holding power.
It is a case of them constantly attempting to out-woking each other... this is where the imaginary outrages come from... an attempt to win the awareness award of the day. The result being, "look at what the looney left wants to do if you vote for them"

No body gives a flying fuck about something common in society that poses an obstruction to a tiny number of people with a highly specific and rare situation.... except the woke asshole that wants to display their knowledge of this obscure situation.

At some point in our not-so-distant past, our society decided that placing ramps where stairs are is a good thing to do for people that have trouble with stairs. At no fucking point in our history did anyone ever consider stairs to be racist, un-woke, evils.... but if this woke shit was around then like it is today, anyone using stairs would be a racist trump supporting prick.

 

[TomC]

That is just it, empathetic and civilized behavior has nothing to do with woke.

Unfortunately, this is exactly true.

Woke is just like Christianity, in the sense that it doesn't mean much. It's an ideology. And complete assholes qualify as Woke, just as they might Christian. Or Muslim. Or Libertarian. Or Atheist. Or whatever.

Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

You put your finger on the issue. Woke is competitive consciousness. It's about who can show they're the most empathic. Because it's a competition they reduce everything to that which can be compared and quantified, and then they use that as a proxy for being the most empathic and compassionate. Missing the entire point of empathy and compassion. They're so busy being empathic that they stop actually being empathic. Instead they become mean and petty. They become everything they're supposed to NOT be. That's why woke is a social poison.

Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

Who? Who does this? Honestly, if it is just some random fucker who you don't know their name, aren't in any position of power or influence and you are still worried about their behaviour because it might make "your side look bad" fuck 'em and calm the fuck down.

"They" are everywhere. Last week I spent at an art festival absolutely full of it. This is in Denmark. Probably Europe's least woke country. Its in the Media everywhere. I've made plenty of threads here with examples. This Forums own Politesse makes plenty of Woke posts. Current advertising is full of wokeness. Silicon Valley companies make woke statements. We had pride here in Copenhagen last week. The city was covered in rainbow flags. I wonder how many of them were flown by people who have ever done anything for a gay person?

Yeah... Woke is a huge problem in the western world. My American friends who travel between Europe and USA say its much worse in USA.

I think it's a question of being aware of it. I was super woke only a couple of years ago, and had been my entire life. A couple of incidents made me aware of how warped my thinking was, and I finally snapped out of it.

Being woke is very seductive. I felt awesome. I was a crusader for good. Its was so easy to be virtuous. All I needed to do was to avoid words on the naughty list. I didn't have to do anything to help those in actual need.

Volonteering in a homeless shelter was the final nail in the woke coffin. That's when I realised that those who took their time to help mostly identified as Conservative. Conservatives did practical things to help. Progressives mostly went to parties.

I'm not defending conservatives now. I see it more as that today's progressives have been seduced into territory that is an ideological dead end.

I don't know why. But us liberals used to be the grounded ones. I want that back