Woke is white arrogance

[Patooka]

Following your logic I should want more educated people since I am highly educated.

There is a big difference between educated and indoctrinated. MAGA supporters who unconditionally believe the election was stolen are the latter. Please don't ever use the word logic to support your arguments ever again.

 

[Politesse]

Bragging about education makes more sense to me than bragging about penis size. It seems to me that the size of your penis says more about what your mother was looking for in a sexual partner than it does about your personal virtues or accomplishments per se. All power to her, of course, but how does that say anything in particular about you as a person?

 

[bigfield]

Who are "they"? Do they actually exist and are they people worth worrying about?

"They" are everywhere. Last week I spent at an art festival absolutely full of it. This is in Denmark. Probably Europe's least woke country. Its in the Media everywhere. I've made plenty of threads here with examples. This Forums own Politesse makes plenty of Woke posts. Current advertising is full of wokeness. Silicon Valley companies make woke statements. We had pride here in Copenhagen last week. The city was covered in rainbow flags. I wonder how many of them were flown by people who have ever done anything for a gay person?

You've characterised woke as entirely pretentious and insincere and concerned solely with improving one's own esteem, but that is definitely not the impression I get from reading Politesse's posts. I see the opposite: Politesse's posts indicate he's a academic who takes his subject matter seriously and has genuine interest in understanding people. You yourself advocate for the tolerance of ignorance, but it should be obvious that this is totally incompatible with the pursuit of knowledge. I certainly would not expect a serious academic to be willing to let ignorant statements about society and human nature go unchallenged.

I would agree that woke advertising and corporate PR is obviously cynical virtue signalling. I don't think it's a useful reflection of anyone other than the people those companies are marketing to.

I don't remember any of your media examples other than a couple of vague complaints that the Swedish public broadcaster was too politically correct.

Volonteering in a homeless shelter was the final nail in the woke coffin. That's when I realised that those who took their time to help mostly identified as Conservative. Conservatives did practical things to help. Progressives mostly went to parties.

I'm not defending conservatives now. I see it more as that today's progressives have been seduced into territory that is an ideological dead end.

Soup kitchens are entirely consistent with religious conservatives' values. A lot of church communities put a high value on charity and community service.

However, there seems to be a common idea among conservatives that this kind of charity should exist instead of government-run welfare. Government should stay out of the business of helping the needy, because that is the job of the people. Therefore, the purpose of charity is not simply to help those in need, but to have in place a social hierarchy where everyone has a place. Some people's place is to be a beggar; some people's place is to be a virtuous volunteer or donor.

I've seen a few conservatives boast online that they are the ones feeding and clothing the homeless, but at the same time, those same people oppose more ambitious projects that would actually put people in houses and buy food for themselves. Those more ambitious projects are typically characterised as left-wing policies, because government assumes the community's responsibility to look after the poor. Do these conservatives feel like they are being robbed of an opportunity to be charitable? Do they disagree with who exactly government is helping? I don't really understand the attitude.

I think you'll find that progressives do practical things to help as well, but you're probably looking in the wrong places. Progressives are more likely to make practical help their full time occupation. For an example specific to homelessness, there are social workers whose full time job is to find vulnerable people a place to live and a job, and they work within a network of other people whose full time job is providing for people's wellbeing and future. Mind you, you might not meet these people if your social calendar finds you mixing with pretentious wankers at art exhibitions.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.

It's not an insult. Its a question of different values. I think you are sincere. At least you come across as such. I think you see yourself as a good person making the world a better place with your woke posts. Woke people often do.

If it was just about awereness, or spreading awereness, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes from demanding that others also are aware. And attacking those who aren't. Its aware oneupmanship.

 

[Patooka]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwmYoFscIk8[/youtube]

 

[Politesse]

Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.

It's not an insult. Its a question of different values. I think you are sincere. At least you come across as such. I think you see yourself as a good person making the world a better place with your woke posts. Woke people often do.

If it was just about awereness, or spreading awereness, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes from demanding that others also are aware. And attacking those who aren't. Its aware oneupmanship.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but you live in a society. People aren't really going to stay out of your business, and you don't really stay out of theirs either. You're old enough to know better by now.

You're also not ashamed to tell others how they ought to believe and act - no one forced you to create this thread attacking other people for thinking wrong and demanding that they become "aware" of the views of your favorite communist Youtube philosopher - so what kind of an overt double standard are you running here?

 

[zorq]

Okay, I have met a few people who might qualify as a "woke evangelist" but only one of them was truly annoying. Most would just bring up topics of their interest that happened in the recent news. The annoying one would get huffy if she encountered something that offended her sensibilities. But none of these people saw "wokeness" as a competition. None of them were striving to prove their superiority and only the annoying one would ever show condescension to others.

Dr. Zoidberg, maybe your issue isn't with wokeness. Maybe it's with some assholes in your personal life. Or maybe the wokeness you have a problem with is a regional issue which isn't quite the same wokeness as it exists in other places. (Or maybe I'm the aberration)

Either way, telling people that they are being assholes is fine by me. I still don't understand your aversion to it. This thread seems to be an indictment against "the woke" (as you see them) because you think they are arrogant assholes. But then you present your alternative philosophy that boils down to "nobody should bother the assholes, let them be dicks in peace and they might go away." It just doesn't make sense, and it contradicts the very premise of this thread which seems to be to let woke assholes know that (in your opinion) their efforts to eliminate assholes are the opposite of productive. But if you truly believed in letting assholes do their assholishness in peace, then where the hell did this thread come from?

An asshole can't address their dick behavior unless they become aware of it. That's why you posted this thread, and that's why woke people point out the failures of others to empathize.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIeZZ3vNsvM[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

These have also been called luxury beliefs, as material items no longer distinguish the rich from the poor. Those who espouse these beliefs don’t bear the costs of these beliefs; e.g., the “defund the police” crowd who live in safe or gated communities or who have personal security; or the White liberal who publicly bemoans the lack of racial diversity in his profession or field but never offers to resign so a non-White can take his place.

In addition to what you just said, these beliefs are also heavily taught in liberal institutions. And today there are far too many over educated people competing for too few good paying jobs. These people really can't brag about their money or their penis size (which they really don't have that much of anyway) so they brag to each other about what they learned in school.

And how often are you fixated on the penises of people you don’t care for?

 

[Jarhyn]

Hey Gospel, I think you and I can resolve this fairly quickly as far as to whether the OP title is true. I'm white, you're black. Is what I am "arrogant" in primary character, as regards my racial outlook?

And keep in mind, I am admittedly a rather arrogant person at times; but this is not about what one person can be and rather about the character of what one person is, with regards to another person, in a way that may disprove, through example, the claim of the OP.

 

[Toni]

I just wanted to point out the obvious: There is definitely a lot of white arrogance in this thread.

 

[Politesse]

I just wanted to point out the obvious: There is definitely a lot of white arrogance in this thread.

Critical race theory confirmed?

 

[Elixir]

Following your logic I should want more educated people since I am highly educated.

There is a big difference between educated and indoctrinated. MAGA supporters who unconditionally believe the election was stolen are the latter.

Yes, you have put your finger on the communication problem here.
@RVonse is highly indoctrinated, part of which involves maintaining ignorance of facts the run counter to the indoctrination. Another part is that he mistakes watching "rather long videos" from the My Pillow crackhead guy for education.
Belief that the election was stolen despite a complete and utter lack of evidence of fraud, belief that Rudi found anything incriminating on "Hunter's laptop" ... and at least a half dozen other counter-factual beliefs evinced by RV, can only arise from exposure to right wing propaganda, and insulation from factual sources.

There's not much that can be done about it. In the famous words of Mae West, you can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Accusing me of social awareness is the weirdest "insult"! Will you try to hurt my widdle feelings by calling me a social justice warrior, next? Or anti-fascist?

I don't believe most of the nonsense you claim that "Woke" people do, but if you think I'm scared or offended by the word itself, I am not.

It's not an insult. Its a question of different values. I think you are sincere. At least you come across as such. I think you see yourself as a good person making the world a better place with your woke posts. Woke people often do.

If it was just about awereness, or spreading awereness, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes from demanding that others also are aware. And attacking those who aren't. Its aware oneupmanship.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but you live in a society. People aren't really going to stay out of your business, and you don't really stay out of theirs either. You're old enough to know better by now.

You're also not ashamed to tell others how they ought to believe and act - no one forced you to create this thread attacking other people for thinking wrong and demanding that they become "aware" of the views of your favorite communist Youtube philosopher - so what kind of an overt double standard are you running here?

I only shame people for trying to use social pressure to kill free expression. To use bullying tactics to silence dissent. I think it's evil. Woke is basically a version of, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And the antithesis of progress and liberal values.

Zizek isn't really a communist. In the 90'ies he was the party leader for Slovenians liberal party. Ie market liberal. He only says he's a communist to fuck with people. What he says is that he's a "Stalinist". In Eastern Europe that's like saying you're a Nazi or the Devil. Obviously he isn't that. He says it because he dislikes black and white political dichotomies and has the opinion that if you don't understand that he's joking then you should stop listening to him.

This is also a major problem with woke. We're supposed to give a shit if other people get offended by our actions. Other people's offence is our problem. By necessity, that means we demand that the public discourse is adapted to the dumbest members of society. That's not how to create progress (which is what the left is supposed to be all about).

He has no interest in dumbing down to convince stupid people. As a philosopher his job is to provide brutal truths and dissect anything we uncritically take for granted. He's too intelligent to be easily dismissed IMHO. If you do that then, I think, it's most likely you who is intellectually lazy, and think it's scary to honestly look at and question your own behaviour. You know... authenticity. All famous philosopher are famous for good reasons.

edit: I just assume he's joking about being a Stalinist. He hasn't said he isn't. But I'd say his beliefs are incompatible with Stalinism. And considering his dark sense of humour I think it's absoutely a joke. I've read several of his books. So I'm pretty convinced it's a joke.

edit: I also think that it's ok to be offensive. Back in the day, 40'ies, 50'ies and 60'ies being allowed to be offensive was what progressives were fighting for. At some point in the 70'ies something went horribly wrong in the left. Was it possibly Sex Pistols?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

When did "Woke" have to do with being offended. CRT/Woke is about systemic/unrealized process issues that take race into account negatively (ID recognition software, hiring processes), without it being recognized. And then there are the times it is recognized. Like the valuation of the same home of a black family verses a white family, but in the spirit of commonality, assumed to not be intentional.

That has fuck all to do with being offended and can cost families tens of thousands in a sale, employment at a better location, etc... Stuff that perpetuates a lot down the road. A black family isn't whining about being offended their house was reappraised for $60,000 more using photos of white people in their home. They want their fucking money!

You are just going off on the typical anti "PC" arguments, whining about whether people should be bothered if they act like racists.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Okay, I have met a few people who might qualify as a "woke evangelist" but only one of them was truly annoying. Most would just bring up topics of their interest that happened in the recent news. The annoying one would get huffy if she encountered something that offended her sensibilities. But none of these people saw "wokeness" as a competition. None of them were striving to prove their superiority and only the annoying one would ever show condescension to others.

Dr. Zoidberg, maybe your issue isn't with wokeness. Maybe it's with some assholes in your personal life. Or maybe the wokeness you have a problem with is a regional issue which isn't quite the same wokeness as it exists in other places. (Or maybe I'm the aberration)

Either way, telling people that they are being assholes is fine by me. I still don't understand your aversion to it. This thread seems to be an indictment against "the woke" (as you see them) because you think they are arrogant assholes. But then you present your alternative philosophy that boils down to "nobody should bother the assholes, let them be dicks in peace and they might go away." It just doesn't make sense, and it contradicts the very premise of this thread which seems to be to let woke assholes know that (in your opinion) their efforts to eliminate assholes are the opposite of productive. But if you truly believed in letting assholes do their assholishness in peace, then where the hell did this thread come from?

An asshole can't address their dick behavior unless they become aware of it. That's why you posted this thread, and that's why woke people point out the failures of others to empathize.

I'm 100% ok with people being assholes. Nobody ever needs to be nice to me, or anyone. I'm super cool with being offended. Nobody should feel forced to invite anybody to any party.

My problem with woke is more along the lines of it being an existential threat to liberal values, democracy and western civilization. Which is a problem. If we have Trumpism on one side, ie a existential threat to liberal values, democracy and western civilisation on one hand and woke on the other, we might find ourselves in the same situation Turkey was in which led to Erdogan's power grab.

If an anti-democratic force are trying to grab power and you have been elected as leader, but you are an opportunistic scumbag who have reached power simply by virtue signaling and making statements every intelligent person sees right through, you might think to yourself, "hm... I can take power here. Who's to stop me?" If you think Middle-Eastern countries are uniquely vulnerable to this, remember that Germany in the 1920'ies was the global epicenter of philosophy and scientific thought.

Middle-Eastern Islamism has a lot of parallels with Western wokism. Both are fine with dispensing with freedom of expression on the altar of moralism and virtue. Both are utterly ruthless when it comes to having a polished public surface. Within Islamism and Wokism leadership is mostly just about parroting popular slogans while having policies utterly devoid of any substance. It's leaders are more concerned about just staying in power for its own sake rather than doing anything worthwhile with that power. They must surely know everything out of their mouth is disingenuous. At this point it's all utter fantasy.

I've been woke. I've been in these circles. I know how the woke brain works from the inside. It's essentially a cult. Endlessly repeat and validate the most virtuous statements. Be extremely critical of those who fail to repeat the most virtuous statements accurately. Invent convoluted theoretical academical frameworks that identify enemies we can form a movement in opposition to (Racism, patriarchy etc). If we can't find people racist enough, we'll twist reality to make them more racist.

It's an extremely dangerous and seductive ideology IMHO. That's why I argue against it so much.

But I don't think we're heading towards an apocalypse. I think western democracy is too ingrained by this point and I do woke will collapse in a whimper and die out. But it might get messy before we reach that point. Political instability and a fall in western prestige and power.

edit: In the Covid thread on this forum I got the impression that there was a correlation between woke users and the lack of respect for basic human rights.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Okay, I have met a few people who might qualify as a "woke evangelist" but only one of them was truly annoying. Most would just bring up topics of their interest that happened in the recent news. The annoying one would get huffy if she encountered something that offended her sensibilities. But none of these people saw "wokeness" as a competition. None of them were striving to prove their superiority and only the annoying one would ever show condescension to others.

Dr. Zoidberg, maybe your issue isn't with wokeness. Maybe it's with some assholes in your personal life. Or maybe the wokeness you have a problem with is a regional issue which isn't quite the same wokeness as it exists in other places. (Or maybe I'm the aberration)

Either way, telling people that they are being assholes is fine by me. I still don't understand your aversion to it. This thread seems to be an indictment against "the woke" (as you see them) because you think they are arrogant assholes. But then you present your alternative philosophy that boils down to "nobody should bother the assholes, let them be dicks in peace and they might go away." It just doesn't make sense, and it contradicts the very premise of this thread which seems to be to let woke assholes know that (in your opinion) their efforts to eliminate assholes are the opposite of productive. But if you truly believed in letting assholes do their assholishness in peace, then where the hell did this thread come from?

An asshole can't address their dick behavior unless they become aware of it. That's why you posted this thread, and that's why woke people point out the failures of others to empathize.

I'm 100% ok with people being assholes. Nobody ever needs to be nice to me, or anyone. I'm super cool with being offended. Nobody should feel forced to invite anybody to any party.

My problem with woke is more along the lines of it being an existential threat to liberal values, democracy and western civilization. Which is a problem. If we have Trumpism on one side, ie a existential threat to liberal values, democracy and western civilisation on one hand and woke on the other, we might find ourselves in the same situation Turkey was in which led to Erdogan's power grab.

Trumpism is an Authoritarian / anti-democracy movement attempting to remove the rights of minorities, LGBT, and anything not them. Woke is noticing that house appraisers appraise white owned house higher than black owned ones. Comparing the two is ignorant as all fuck.

You want to extapolate the hypersensitive on the left across an entire movement whose scope is much deeper than 'being offended'. Where as Trump had his supporters in the Capitol Building waiting for the military to arrive and arrests Biden and Harris.

 

[ideologyhunter]

...not to mention being consummate morons when it comes to understanding absolutely basic health information, thus insuring that half a million, heading toward a full million of our citizens will be dead from a disease whose spread is preventable.

 

[Swammerdami]

Within Islamism and Wokism leadership is mostly just about parroting popular slogans while having policies utterly devoid of any substance. It's leaders are more concerned about just staying in power for its own sake rather than doing anything worthwhile with that power. They must surely know everything out of their mouth is disingenuous. At this point it's all utter fantasy.

Examples please. Are there Americans spouting "wokism" disingenuously to stay in power? Who are they, and what are examples of their wokist nonsense?

 

[KeepTalking]

I've been woke. I've been in these circles. I know how the woke brain works from the inside.

I suppose you have a black friend who tells you that you aren't a racist as well?

Get the fuck outta here with "I used to be woke."

You display a total ignorance of what it means to be woke. You can't even show us examples of "woke" people, only examples of people bitching about woke people. I have no idea what you think you were, but it sure as hell wasn't "woke" as I have ever known it to be.

 

[Jarhyn]

I've been woke. I've been in these circles. I know how the woke brain works from the inside.

I suppose you have a black friend who tells you that you aren't a racist as well?

Get the fuck outta here with "I used to be woke."

You display a total ignorance of what it means to be woke. You can't even show us examples of "woke" people, only examples of people bitching about woke people. I have no idea what you think you were, but it sure as hell wasn't "woke" as I have ever known it to be.

I've heard vanishingly few seriously using "woke" as anything but a slur. To me, that's what it is, what it has always been: a slur, farmed from black vernacular originally used as a compliment. It is doubly offensive in this way to hijack the term, but when did that ever stop racists?