How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

Of course, the Russian elections are a farce.

So democracy excuse everything?

No, democracy does not "excuse". Dictatorship "impugns".

It is not that one form of government is necessarily good, merely that particular kinds are necessarily bad.

And democracy is necessarily good and everything democracy does is necessarily good. So invading Iraq was good even though it was based on complete and utter lie.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Of course, the Russian elections are a farce.

So democracy excuse everything?

No, democracy does not "excuse". Dictatorship "impugns".

It is not that one form of government is necessarily good, merely that particular kinds are necessarily bad.

And democracy is necessarily good and everything democracy does is necessarily good. So invading Iraq was good even though it was based on complete and utter lie.

?? And how did you make this stretch? This should be a separate thread. I'd make the claim all day that a democratic system with fair elections is far more legitimate than one that is not. But that doesn't mean that democratic regimes always make the best decisions! Far from it. However, my post above was to refute your common claim that the Ukrainian government has no legitimacy.

 

[Jarhyn]

Of course, the Russian elections are a farce.

So democracy excuse everything?

No, democracy does not "excuse". Dictatorship "impugns".

It is not that one form of government is necessarily good, merely that particular kinds are necessarily bad.

And democracy is necessarily good and everything democracy does is necessarily good. So invading Iraq was good even though it was based on complete and utter lie.

You know, that's a nice straw man you're beating up on there.

 

[barbos]

Of course, the Russian elections are a farce.

So democracy excuse everything?

No, democracy does not "excuse". Dictatorship "impugns".

It is not that one form of government is necessarily good, merely that particular kinds are necessarily bad.

And democracy is necessarily good and everything democracy does is necessarily good. So invading Iraq was good even though it was based on complete and utter lie.

You know, that's a nice straw man you're beating up on there.

No, it's not.

 

[Elixir]

Yes it is.
Democracy need not be perfect to be worlds better than authoritarianism.
4 years of the latter just showed us so in no uncertain terms.

 

[Jarhyn]

Of course, the Russian elections are a farce.

So democracy excuse everything?

No, democracy does not "excuse". Dictatorship "impugns".

It is not that one form of government is necessarily good, merely that particular kinds are necessarily bad.

And democracy is necessarily good and everything democracy does is necessarily good. So invading Iraq was good even though it was based on complete and utter lie.

You know, that's a nice straw man you're beating up on there.

No, it's not.

You're right. I was being facetious.

You got me.

It's a pretty disgusting straw man.

 

[barbos]

It's not a strawman.

 

[Elixir]

It's not a strawman.

So you really believe that "democracy is necessarily good and everything democracy does is necessarily good"?
Or are you pretending that someone else thinks that?
Or perhaps... just PERHAPS... you were being facetious?

Such a desperate attempt to cover your tracks reeks of dictates from above... did you piss off your handlers again?

 

[TV and credit cards]

So President for Life Because Everyone Loves Me Putin wants Poland and the Baltic States to be NATO free in an ironclad, no backsies agreement.
And then...
Nine months later...
Free and unfettered access to the Kaliningrad Oblast.
Sorry Lithuania, Poland. It just has to be this way.

 

[Jarhyn]

It's not a strawman.

Of course, the Russian elections are a farce.

So democracy excuse everything?

No, democracy does not "excuse". Dictatorship "impugns".

(A)It is not that one form of government is necessarily good, merely that particular kinds are necessarily bad.

And (B)democracy is necessarily good and everything democracy does is necessarily good. So invading Iraq was good even though it was based on complete and utter lie.

Like, it's right there in the original quotes. Ive bolded the straw-man labelled (B) against the original labeled (A).

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

No, it was mot, because Putin told them that Russia is not interested in taking Eastern Ukraine.

If Putin said it then it must be true. Why would anyone doubt?

And your point is?
You honestly believe that I am making shit up?

Whether you are making shit up or not is irrelevant. The facts of the matter are what stand. And your position has been very short on facts and very long on argument.

There are plenty of Putin stooges who despise democracy because of authoritarian leanings. You have no idea how democracy operates yet you so readily disparage it. Unfortunate but not surprising because democracy will always threaten your hold on power.

 

[ZiprHead]

Even though it was a former Russian territory given to Ukraine after revolution in order to create a bigger Ukraine, give more weight to constituent republics so to speak, or simply dilute "ukrainians", hard to tell.
Tsar before communists was doing the same - making Ukraine bigger and bigger by giving them more and more russian land. None of them had thought that one day NATO would try to expand into Russian land.

How is it Russian land anymore when it was freely given to Ukraine? After it was given, it's no longer Russian land, it's Ukraine land.

 

[Elixir]

Ah, now Pootey is issuing ultimatums.

"You gotta do this and don't do that, or I'm gonna invade Ukraine and it will be all your fault!"

The proposals, which were submitted to NATO and U.S. officials earlier this week, call for sweeping concessions and guarantees from what Russian deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov previously referred to as the “collective West.”

Ya sure ya betcha, Pootster. We take orders from your tinpot dictator ass.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So when the people of Donetsk voted to secede, that wasn't a real vote so it doesn't count.

Real democracies always vote in accord with US wishes. Got it.

There are two major problems with that vote:

1) The Russians sent a lot of people there and declared them locals, eligible to vote. Meanwhile, anyone who had managed to get out of dodge wasn't able to vote.

2) The pre-hostilities status quo wasn't even an option on the ballot.

 

[Copernicus]

It is true that Ukraine has its nativist fascists, just as Russia and the US do.

Don't equate Russia and Ukraine or even US. Ukraine had fascist coup supported by US. And do you know who is nativist fascist in Russia? Your good friend Navalny.
So give me a break.

Yanukovych was kicked out of office by a popular uprising that never required any foreign troops to support it. The puppet warlords in the Donbas only rule by force of arms and Russian troops to back them up. You appear to have no idea what fascism is. Russia is ruled by a pretend president who has extended his regime only by changing its constitution. Putin's party, United Russia, only clings to power by gaming elections. The Ukrainian president and Ukraine's deputies in Verkhovna Rada were all elected in free and fair elections. Sorry, but no breaks for the nonsense you spouted above.

However, I also understand the desire of Ukrainian nationalists to revive the national language, which existed as a literary standard long before Moscow had thrown off the Mongol yoke and declared itself the "Third Rome" defender of Orthodox Christianity

"Expert" linguist is speaking again. No, there were no ukrainian, russian languages back then, let alone standards. Moreover ukrainian barely have standard now.
Literary standard my ass. All greatest ukrainian writers wrote in ..... russian.
You had to be an idiot to write in ukrainian.

It doesn't take an expert to see that you have no idea of the history of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which threw off the Mongol yoke almost a century before Moscow did and lasted for over 500 years. White Ruthenia (Belarus) and Red Ruthenia (western Ukraine) developed their own culture and literary traditions independently of Black Ruthenia (historical Duchy of Muscovy). Russian occupation of Ukraine (which Putin thinks of as part of "historical Russia") only really began in the 19th century. Ukrainian was an official literary language of Ukraine under Soviet rule, and the country itself was reinstated as a political entity within the Soviet empire. You have never studied Ukrainian and seem to have no idea, let alone interest in, how it differs from Russian, but even many Russian-speaking Ukrainians are interested in learning it as part of an effort to reclaim their cultural heritage. One of the reasons that Ukrainians have drifted towards the EU and NATO is that they know their history better than you do.

As for Russia's interest in "taking Eastern Ukraine", that has already been proven by Putin's action to grant Russian passports to those living in territories controlled by local warlords and their Russian military allies

Even people in Eastern Ukraine need to travel abroad, the only way to do that is to have russian passport. Nobody forces them to get russian passports.

How could you possibly know that? You don't live there, and you aren't Ukrainian. The act of issuing Russian passports is a clear indication that Putin's regime considers the Donbas a part of Russia. Putin himself has used the old tsarist imperial name "Novorossiya" for the area of Ukraine that it had occupied since the beginning of the 19th century.

See: “There is no Ukraine”: Fact-Checking the Kremlin’s Version of Ukrainian History

 

[Jarhyn]

Ah, now Pootey is issuing ultimatums.

"You gotta do this and don't do that, or I'm gonna invade Ukraine and it will be all your fault!"

The proposals, which were submitted to NATO and U.S. officials earlier this week, call for sweeping concessions and guarantees from what Russian deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov previously referred to as the “collective West.”

Ya sure ya betcha, Pootster. We take orders from your tinpot dictator ass.

Sounds like "don't make me punch you." There's a correct response to that game.

 

[barbos]

Yanukovych was kicked out of office by a popular uprising that never required any foreign troops to support it.

That's patently false. It was not popular at all and foreign troops WERE taking part.
In fact it was on its way down when foreign "help" started shooting people.

The puppet warlords in the Donbas only rule by force of arms and Russian troops to back them up. You appear to have no idea what fascism is.

Do you know how offensive it is to tell that to a russian?

It doesn't take an expert to see that you have no idea of the history of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which threw off the Mongol yoke almost a century before Moscow did and lasted for over 500 years.

You are trying to diminish Russia again?

 

[barbos]

How could you possibly know that? You don't live there, and you aren't Ukrainian.

Unlike you I read actual news.
So, how do you propose people in Eastern Ukraine travel abroad?
Or people in Abhazia? or Soutern Ossetia?

By the way, it's not illegal to have passports of multiple countries.
And moreover Hungary does the same with Hungarians in Ukraine and nobody complains, well, ukrainian junta complains of course, but EU/US does not.
Same with Romania.
There are americans with russian passports too.

 

[barbos]

So when the people of Donetsk voted to secede, that wasn't a real vote so it doesn't count.

Real democracies always vote in accord with US wishes. Got it.

There are two major problems with that vote:

1) The Russians sent a lot of people there and declared them locals, eligible to vote. Meanwhile, anyone who had managed to get out of dodge wasn't able to vote.

2) The pre-hostilities status quo wasn't even an option on the ballot.

That's the same utter garbage you said about Crimea.
I would like you to see you moving 10 million people that efficiently and unnoticeably.

 

[barbos]

Even though it was a former Russian territory given to Ukraine after revolution in order to create a bigger Ukraine, give more weight to constituent republics so to speak, or simply dilute "ukrainians", hard to tell.
Tsar before communists was doing the same - making Ukraine bigger and bigger by giving them more and more russian land. None of them had thought that one day NATO would try to expand into Russian land.

How is it Russian land anymore when it was freely given to Ukraine? After it was given, it's no longer Russian land, it's Ukraine land.

No, it was transferred formally (and often illegally) within one Country - Soviet Union and Russia before that. It really was meaningless. Even at the time of soviet union dissolution it was meaningless because it was understood that Ukraine would still be tied to Russia economically politically and culturally. It's when NATO decided to occupy Ukraine and ban russian language it suddenly became very meaningful.

In case of another NATO prospective member (Georgia) Abhazia and South Ossetia left at the first opportunity so technically they have never (!!!) been part of independent country of Georgia. Of course you will never hear any of that in MSM.