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What would count as proof of God

If I wrangle a paragraph in which I contrive that a lightbulb and Apollo have shared traits, it doesn't make the lightbulb a god.

A culture tells us what their gods are (or were). It's a social convention, a cultural tradition. Not "if I make a character in a computer game that has such and such traits". A character is a god only inasmuch as some people say so. They can have designated their fiction a demon or wizard or whatever else, but they chose to say "this is a god". Anyone else who then applies the same label, though they don't believe in the fiction itself, is just giving a nod to those folk's tradition.

Then some unbelievers say "but how is it that these people take their fiction to be real?" So believers elaborate on their fiction to try to make it seem real. It happens because people take these old conventions so very fucking seriously.
No, a character in the universe is very much NOT a god in any respect. They just another schlub in sea of schlubs unless they also created a universe in their little context.

The thing that makes me different from them is that I am in no way bound to the physics of their universe. I can just change the universe without having to exist there and push through the density of it's stuff or be bound by the form of the thought possible there.

But as said, being a god doesn't do much good when the god you are is not "the god of THIS".

Really, though, I just have to fall back to what I posted earlier: manage to show the initial state of the universe and the seed which generated it's pattern of "virtual" activity, and prove that something has put footprints in that snow, there's your 'god' of the same form as I am of the world's I create.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
Do they? How so?
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
You are neglecting to look at the fact that, if the universe is an operation happening on a piece of "superphysical" hardware, with each particle served by one or more process cores once per frame of time, with messages dispatched to logically "adjacent" process cores, and all represented in their quantum numbers literally by some digital value...

It does not matter what forces and patterns of behavior and physics are operant within the behavior of the system.

To do something all the god has to do is change the numbers on the hardware by whatever means they have, entirely outside the normal rules of the executing process.

There is no rule in the physics of Dwarf Fortress, no visibility from within it's time dimension or possible interactions, that could cause my arrow flying through the air to hit something on the other side of a wall short of it not being a wall but a "fortification". To get around this, just tell the os from an entirely different non-dwarf-physics process to flip a bit on physical memory. Now without apparent, and entirely without physical cause (though retaining superphysical causality), the arrow is on the other side of the wall.

This is, in fact, one of the reasons I isolate "god" to "creator god" or at least to "not specifically bound as a player purely and solely extant in the simulation": only this class of entity gets a side channel past the requirements of physics.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
Do they? How so?
This has been explained to you in an older thread. By Bilby, and later also by me. Do a search for "Standard Model" using Bilby's username and you should find multiple posts talking about this.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
Do they? How so?
This has been explained to you in an older thread. By Bilby, and later also by me. Do a search for "Standard Model" using Bilby's username and you should find multiple posts talking about this.
Telling me to search every post Bilby ever made on the subject is less effective than summarizing the evidence he presented, if any. The abstract presented here sounds purely speculative on the face of it, but if he provided something more substantive, it shoulsn't be difficult to recap.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
Do they? How so?
This has been explained to you in an older thread. By Bilby, and later also by me. Do a search for "Standard Model" using Bilby's username and you should find multiple posts talking about this.
Telling me to search every post Bilby ever made on the subject is less effective than summarizing the evidence he presented, if any. The abstract presented here sounds purely speculative on the face of it, but if he provided something more substantive, it shoulsn't be difficult to recap.

Ok. Here are a few, and this one is a direct response to YOU:

Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been defined by the Standard Model of Physics. This does not mean that other particles do not exist, but that such particles would not interact with us at all, or so weakly so as to have no measurable effect.
I would have said, off the top of my head, that the Standard Model of Physics was defined by us, not the other way around. What exactly is it, and how does it define things, other than in the sense of being a useful mental model we use to describe the universe?

I don't understand what "other particles" is meant to refer to here. Other than what? And what ARE these other particles to which you refer, if they aren't the ones we usually encounter? And what has any of that to do with theology? A universe in which God were made of particles, spooky or otherwise, would rather contradict the notion of an immaterial realm/power/force which seems to integral to most religious perspectives. Obviously, Christians do believe that God is at least occasionally made of particles - else, why the Eucharist - but not to be synonymous with them. At least, not in any version of the mythos that I have ever heard.

So if any gods exist, they would not have the ability to interact with us.
If God is essentially immaterial, but immanent in the material, he or she or it is interacting with us whenever we interact with anything. Isn't that what immanence means?

The Standard Model describes all of the interactions that influence particles. The only unknowns in the model occur at very large scales, or at very high energies.

A human is composed of 'particles' and 'forces', both of which are precisely described by the mathematics of Quantum Field Theory. One of the requirements of the theory is the interchangeability of mass and energy, as described by Einstein's famous equation. This says that mass is energy, and vice-versa - so if you concentrate enough energy in one spot, any particles with a mass equal to, or lower than, that amount of energy will arise. The model lists all of the possible particles, and describes their properties - mass, half-life, decay products, etc.

As a result, we can thoroughly and accurately test the model by putting a lot of energy into one spot, surrounded by detectors, and looking at what particles are created, and their energies.

We can be completely confident that this process will generate examples of every particle and force that can exist within the range of energies of our experiments. If the theory is flawed, we will see results that differ from the predictions of theory - so if, for example, a force or particle not described by the Standard Model could possibly exist at the energies we have tested, then that would show up as a disagreement between theory and observation.

Using particle accelerators, we can look at some VERY large energies. We can also use astrophysical data to examine low energy interactions (such as gravity), that only become measurable at large scales.

This gives us an upper and lower bound, between which we can be confident that no interactions of any kind occur, apart from those described by the Standard Model. At this point in time, the low energy bound implies interactions are completely understood for all entities smaller than several light years across; and the high energy bound implies interactions are completely understood for all entities larger than sub-atomic particles.

For a hypothetical god to influence a human via an unknown force (or particle, or field), would require either that the human in question occupies several cubic light years of space; Or that he could withstand energies similar to those found in atomic explosions. Neither condition is compatible with life.

Of course, we could hypothesise a god that interacts with our reality only via the forces we already know about, in accordance with the Standard Model. But if we do so, our hypothesis predicts that those divine interventions will be easily detectable using simple scientific techniques. And we detect no such interventions.

Either a 'soul' is easy to detect; Or it is incapable of interaction of any kind with its owner; Or it is fictional. No other possibilities are compatible with modern physics, and none of these are compatible with any intervention by gods, nor with an afterlife, psychic powers, or a whole range of other mystical ideas.

Of course, it's possible that tbe Standard Model is wrong. But for it to be wrong enough to rescue theism and/or dualism would imply that none of our modern technologies are understood by their inventors or users. Everything we have invented since the industrial revolution would have to operate according to principles we have completely failed to understand, and our success would have to be down to stupendously good luck - luck on a level that would make winning every lottery ever
drawn seem like a trivial coincidence.

Theists are often very keen to point out that nothing in science is proven or certain. They are right - but some things are far more certain than others, and the likelihood that the Standard Model is wrong in a way that would render interactions between god and man a possibility, is considerably lower than the likelihood that the moon is made of green cheese, and we just got all our observations that should have shown that fact, wrong.

It's literally insane to accept both the Standard Model and the existence of a god that interacts with humans. Picking one of these two exclusive positions is necessary for a reasonable person; And picking the one that has been exhaustively tested and has passed every test, over the one that's based entirely on speculation, rumour and 'revelation', but has never been seen experimentally, is a no-brainer.

It's over. Atheism is correct, theism is wrong. The moon's not a dairy product, and there is neither a soul nor an afterlife outside fiction.

Fortunately for the world's religions, physics is hard, maths is hard, quantum physics is harder still, and most people don't take the time and effort to learn these things.

But not knowing quantum physics doesn't make it incorrect, or avoidable. Your computer works only because of the success of a theory that implies that gods are nonexistent. That remains true whether or not you (or anyone else) understands it. And this is not secret knowledge; Anyone who puts in the time and effort to learn the maths and physics involved is completely free to test it for themselves - and those who do are in a constant state of striving to show that the Standard Model is wrong, or inaccurate. Showing that it has even the tiniest flaw is sufficient to ensure a Nobel prize. Even at the high and low energy ends of the spectrum, where there's still room for debate and possibly surprising observations.

We have had the best minds in the world working for a century and more to try to find errors in this model. They publish everything for criticism by the entire body of their colleagues. Anyone who wants to have a crack is allowed to do so. None have succeeded.

Meanwhile, the god hypothesis relies on a bunch of contradictory anecdotes that are largely incapable of being tested or falsified. There's literally no reason to accept any theistic claim over other, competing theistic claims. No theist has ever leveraged their understanding to develop a new and effective technology or way of life. There are no prayer based computers, or GPS systems, or power plants, or transportation systems, or really anything demonstrably superior to their secular equivalents.

The Standard Model implies atheism. The "competition" between physics and religion to explain reality is like a match between Mohammed Ali at his prime, and an asthmatic octogenarian amputee with poor eyesight and a glass jaw.

Another one addressed to you:
Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been defined by the Standard Model of Physics. This does not mean that other particles do not exist, but that such particles would not interact with us at all, or so weakly so as to have no measurable effect.
I would have said, off the top of my head, that the Standard Model of Physics was defined by us, not the other way around. What exactly is it, and how does it define things, other than in the sense of being a useful mental model we use to describe the universe?

Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been described by the Standard Model of Physics. As the name implies, it is a model of reality created by us humans, and it includes:

1. All the particles known to man at the present time
2. A description of how these particles interact

Is that better?


I don't understand what "other particles" is meant to refer to here. Other than what?

Particles other than those known to man at the present time. Particles that have not yet been discovered by humans. For example, like the particles that might be associated with dark matter, as scientists speculate.

And what ARE these other particles to which you refer, if they aren't the ones we usually encounter?

There could be a whole collection of undiscovered particles out there. But we know that any such undiscovered particles could not interact with the stuff humans and our reality is made of.

And what has any of that to do with theology?

Religious beliefs are ultimately models of the universe. Just not good models. The idea that our universe was created by a supernatural god in 6 days about 6,000 years ago, as described in Genesis, is an example of such a model. While the existence of Biblegod cannot be falsified, certain claims made in Genesis can be tested against observations, and found wanting.


A universe in which God were made of particles, spooky or otherwise, would rather contradict the notion of an immaterial realm/power/force which seems to integral to most religious perspectives.

So what is this god made of?

The point Bilby and I were trying to make is that our current state of the knowledge (Standard Model of Physics) explicitly rules out any interventions by gods (supernatural forces). All interactions that are compatible with our reality have already been described, and no gods (supernatural interactions) have been found. Therefore, there is no way for a supernatural god to intervene in the affairs of humans.

Obviously, Christians do believe that God is at least occasionally made of particles - else, why the Eucharist - but not to be synonymous with them. At least, not in any version of the mythos that I have ever heard.

Exactly. God is material when it suits the Christians, supernatural when it doesn't.

So if any gods exist, they would not have the ability to interact with us.
If God is essentially immaterial, but immanent in the material, he or she or it is interacting with us whenever we interact with anything. Isn't that what immanence means?

You tell me. I am not proposing that God is a good model for our reality, but you appear to disagree, so feel free to explain how these interactions occur. You can't just wave your hands and say stuff; you have to back it up with facts and evidence. Facts and evidence that can be independently verified.

And another one addressed to you:
Politesse said:
Ah, so it is the "equations" that you believe have the power to govern. How do they do this?

I think we are having trouble communicating with each other. The equations are a model of reality. They can be used to predict or quantify how matter and energy interact, and explain various phenomena. The equations don't control nature; they are a description of nature, a set of man-made tools used by scientists to understand how nature behaves. Nature does what it does, and we try to understand what nature does using tools like the Standard Model.

Bilby provided a detailed explanation of how the Standard Model rules out godly interventions in an earlier post. There are plenty of websites that go into the details of the Standard Model. You can also read books on the subject. Or you can watch some of Sean Carroll's lectures on YouTube, dealing with a wide range of topics like time, cosmology, general relativity, particle physics. He does an excellent job of explaining complex concepts in terms that most ordinary people (non-physicists) can understand.

And yet again:
The Standard Model describes the complete set of all possible effects on particles between the low and high energy bounds mentioned earlier.

This description can be used to make extremely accurate predictions about how matter will behave; It also allows us to make predictions about what would occur if there were one or more unknown particles or forces that are not described by the model - we would see easily measurable differences between theory and observation, if these existed.

As a logical consequence of these facts, it is certain that nothing can affect matter at energies compatible with life, other than the known and easily detectable particles and forces described by the model.

We do not detect any such particles and forces influencing humans in ways compatible with theistic claims.

Supernatural effects on natural matter at survivable temperatures are impossible. Only natural influences have the ability to affect matter - electromagnetism, gravity, and the two nuclear forces. Prayer doesn't produce any changes in these, that are compatible with interaction with an unknown or supernatural 'realm'. Death, conception and birth don't either - any hypothetical 'soul' is therefore not interacting in any way with the body, and is indistinguishable from non-existent.

Any future theories must include the results and predictions that are successfully and accurately predicted by the Standard Model - in the same way that the accurate predictions of Newton's gravitational theory are also generated by relativity.

It's no more possible that souls or gods could interact with humans than it is possible that sometimes things you drop could fall sideways.

Gods and souls are as physically impossible as perpetual motion machines. Actually, perpetual motion machines are slightly less improbable - that is, our physics would need to be horribly wrong for either to be possible; But the number of badly wrong observations we rely upon in the case of perpetual motion is slightly smaller (though still astronomical).

It's even more reasonable to rule out gods on the basis that they are incompatible with what we know about reality, as it is to rule out flying pigs, moons made from dairy products, or sideways gravity.

Perhaps you should pay more attention when people take the time to explain stuff to you, so you don't keep repeating the same questions and making the same arguments over and over.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
You are neglecting to look at the fact that, if the universe is an operation happening on a piece of "superphysical" hardware, with each particle served by one or more process cores once per frame of time, with messages dispatched to logically "adjacent" process cores, and all represented in their quantum numbers literally by some digital value...

It does not matter what forces and patterns of behavior and physics are operant within the behavior of the system.

To do something all the god has to do is change the numbers on the hardware by whatever means they have, entirely outside the normal course of the dance that hardware does.

Stop the machine.

Change the positions of it's cogitations.

Let the machine continue.

If a god has created a universe and decided to "do something" after the manner I do hackish shit in my universe, it would yield no evidence of causality.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
You are neglecting to look at the fact that, if the universe is an operation happening on a piece of "superphysical" hardware, with each particle served by one or more process cores once per frame of time, with messages dispatched to logically "adjacent" process cores, and all represented in their quantum numbers literally by some digital value...

It does not matter what forces and patterns of behavior and physics are operant within the behavior of the system.

To do something all the god has to do is change the numbers on the hardware by whatever means they have, entirely outside the normal rules of the executing process.

There is no rule in the physics of Dwarf Fortress, no visibility from within it's time dimension or possible interactions, that could cause my arrow flying through the air to hit something on the other side of a wall short of it not being a wall but a "fortification". To get around this, just tell the os from an entirely different non-dwarf-physics process to flip a bit on physical memory. Now without apparent, and entirely without physical cause (though retaining superphysical causality), the arrow is on the other side of the wall.

This is, in fact, one of the reasons I isolate "god" to "creator god" or at least to "not specifically bound as a player purely and solely extant in the simulation": only this class of entity gets a side channel past the requirements of physics.
Gods aren't said to merely be able to do these things though.

They are said to actually do them. And constantly. Every prayer, every death where a soul transfers to the afterlife, every miraculous intervention, would violate the rules - which is perfectly possible for your "god" to do - but which would leave all these unexplained events; A close look at reality would reveal stuff that doesn't conform with the rules as we understand them to be.

We looked; No such stuff occurs.

The god you describe might well be possible, but it's not any of the gods any of the world's religions have ever posited. And it wouldn't be undetectable; It's effects on reality would be inexplicable but not absent.
 
If a god has created a universe and decided to "do something" after the manner I do hackish shit in my universe, it would yield no evidence of causality.

Why? B’cuz the god is scared of repercussions from his critters?
I always wondered why a wondrous god who gave a damn about human affairs wouldn’t flaunt his status.

Maybe (s)he does, to peers… :)
 
If a god has created a universe and decided to "do something" after the manner I do hackish shit in my universe, it would yield no evidence of causality.

Why? B’cuz the god is scared of repercussions from his critters?
I always wondered why a wondrous god who gave a damn about human affairs wouldn’t flaunt his status.

Maybe (s)he does, to peers… :)
Perhaps more importantly, why would we speculate that an undetectable god might exist?

The only reason why we were thinking about gods to begin with is that they were hypothesised by various religions to explain various (at the time) inexplicable phenomena the adherents of those religions had observed.

Now we are debating the possibility that gods might exist that cause no observable phenomena. This is insanity. We invented gods to explain unexplained phenomena; We found better explanations for all of those phenomena; And we kept the bad explanation as an explanation for nothing, but which we are sure exists anyway.

It's like saying that phlogiston isn't in sny way involved in combustion, and we can't detect it in any way, but nonetheless we are not comfortable to say that phlogiston doesn't exist.

Politesse isn't, as far as I am aware, agnostic on the question of whether phlogiston exists. So he could apply the same logic to understand that gods don't exist either. His reluctance to do so is an artefact of the popularity of gods, not a reasonable doubt based on any empirical evidence.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
Do they? How so?
This has been explained to you in an older thread. By Bilby, and later also by me. Do a search for "Standard Model" using Bilby's username and you should find multiple posts talking about this.
Telling me to search every post Bilby ever made on the subject is less effective than summarizing the evidence he presented, if any. The abstract presented here sounds purely speculative on the face of it, but if he provided something more substantive, it shoulsn't be difficult to recap.

Ok. Here are a few, and this one is a direct response to YOU:

Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been defined by the Standard Model of Physics. This does not mean that other particles do not exist, but that such particles would not interact with us at all, or so weakly so as to have no measurable effect.
I would have said, off the top of my head, that the Standard Model of Physics was defined by us, not the other way around. What exactly is it, and how does it define things, other than in the sense of being a useful mental model we use to describe the universe?

I don't understand what "other particles" is meant to refer to here. Other than what? And what ARE these other particles to which you refer, if they aren't the ones we usually encounter? And what has any of that to do with theology? A universe in which God were made of particles, spooky or otherwise, would rather contradict the notion of an immaterial realm/power/force which seems to integral to most religious perspectives. Obviously, Christians do believe that God is at least occasionally made of particles - else, why the Eucharist - but not to be synonymous with them. At least, not in any version of the mythos that I have ever heard.

So if any gods exist, they would not have the ability to interact with us.
If God is essentially immaterial, but immanent in the material, he or she or it is interacting with us whenever we interact with anything. Isn't that what immanence means?

The Standard Model describes all of the interactions that influence particles. The only unknowns in the model occur at very large scales, or at very high energies.

A human is composed of 'particles' and 'forces', both of which are precisely described by the mathematics of Quantum Field Theory. One of the requirements of the theory is the interchangeability of mass and energy, as described by Einstein's famous equation. This says that mass is energy, and vice-versa - so if you concentrate enough energy in one spot, any particles with a mass equal to, or lower than, that amount of energy will arise. The model lists all of the possible particles, and describes their properties - mass, half-life, decay products, etc.

As a result, we can thoroughly and accurately test the model by putting a lot of energy into one spot, surrounded by detectors, and looking at what particles are created, and their energies.

We can be completely confident that this process will generate examples of every particle and force that can exist within the range of energies of our experiments. If the theory is flawed, we will see results that differ from the predictions of theory - so if, for example, a force or particle not described by the Standard Model could possibly exist at the energies we have tested, then that would show up as a disagreement between theory and observation.

Using particle accelerators, we can look at some VERY large energies. We can also use astrophysical data to examine low energy interactions (such as gravity), that only become measurable at large scales.

This gives us an upper and lower bound, between which we can be confident that no interactions of any kind occur, apart from those described by the Standard Model. At this point in time, the low energy bound implies interactions are completely understood for all entities smaller than several light years across; and the high energy bound implies interactions are completely understood for all entities larger than sub-atomic particles.

For a hypothetical god to influence a human via an unknown force (or particle, or field), would require either that the human in question occupies several cubic light years of space; Or that he could withstand energies similar to those found in atomic explosions. Neither condition is compatible with life.

Of course, we could hypothesise a god that interacts with our reality only via the forces we already know about, in accordance with the Standard Model. But if we do so, our hypothesis predicts that those divine interventions will be easily detectable using simple scientific techniques. And we detect no such interventions.

Either a 'soul' is easy to detect; Or it is incapable of interaction of any kind with its owner; Or it is fictional. No other possibilities are compatible with modern physics, and none of these are compatible with any intervention by gods, nor with an afterlife, psychic powers, or a whole range of other mystical ideas.

Of course, it's possible that tbe Standard Model is wrong. But for it to be wrong enough to rescue theism and/or dualism would imply that none of our modern technologies are understood by their inventors or users. Everything we have invented since the industrial revolution would have to operate according to principles we have completely failed to understand, and our success would have to be down to stupendously good luck - luck on a level that would make winning every lottery ever
drawn seem like a trivial coincidence.

Theists are often very keen to point out that nothing in science is proven or certain. They are right - but some things are far more certain than others, and the likelihood that the Standard Model is wrong in a way that would render interactions between god and man a possibility, is considerably lower than the likelihood that the moon is made of green cheese, and we just got all our observations that should have shown that fact, wrong.

It's literally insane to accept both the Standard Model and the existence of a god that interacts with humans. Picking one of these two exclusive positions is necessary for a reasonable person; And picking the one that has been exhaustively tested and has passed every test, over the one that's based entirely on speculation, rumour and 'revelation', but has never been seen experimentally, is a no-brainer.

It's over. Atheism is correct, theism is wrong. The moon's not a dairy product, and there is neither a soul nor an afterlife outside fiction.

Fortunately for the world's religions, physics is hard, maths is hard, quantum physics is harder still, and most people don't take the time and effort to learn these things.

But not knowing quantum physics doesn't make it incorrect, or avoidable. Your computer works only because of the success of a theory that implies that gods are nonexistent. That remains true whether or not you (or anyone else) understands it. And this is not secret knowledge; Anyone who puts in the time and effort to learn the maths and physics involved is completely free to test it for themselves - and those who do are in a constant state of striving to show that the Standard Model is wrong, or inaccurate. Showing that it has even the tiniest flaw is sufficient to ensure a Nobel prize. Even at the high and low energy ends of the spectrum, where there's still room for debate and possibly surprising observations.

We have had the best minds in the world working for a century and more to try to find errors in this model. They publish everything for criticism by the entire body of their colleagues. Anyone who wants to have a crack is allowed to do so. None have succeeded.

Meanwhile, the god hypothesis relies on a bunch of contradictory anecdotes that are largely incapable of being tested or falsified. There's literally no reason to accept any theistic claim over other, competing theistic claims. No theist has ever leveraged their understanding to develop a new and effective technology or way of life. There are no prayer based computers, or GPS systems, or power plants, or transportation systems, or really anything demonstrably superior to their secular equivalents.

The Standard Model implies atheism. The "competition" between physics and religion to explain reality is like a match between Mohammed Ali at his prime, and an asthmatic octogenarian amputee with poor eyesight and a glass jaw.

Another one addressed to you:
Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been defined by the Standard Model of Physics. This does not mean that other particles do not exist, but that such particles would not interact with us at all, or so weakly so as to have no measurable effect.
I would have said, off the top of my head, that the Standard Model of Physics was defined by us, not the other way around. What exactly is it, and how does it define things, other than in the sense of being a useful mental model we use to describe the universe?

Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been described by the Standard Model of Physics. As the name implies, it is a model of reality created by us humans, and it includes:

1. All the particles known to man at the present time
2. A description of how these particles interact

Is that better?


I don't understand what "other particles" is meant to refer to here. Other than what?

Particles other than those known to man at the present time. Particles that have not yet been discovered by humans. For example, like the particles that might be associated with dark matter, as scientists speculate.

And what ARE these other particles to which you refer, if they aren't the ones we usually encounter?

There could be a whole collection of undiscovered particles out there. But we know that any such undiscovered particles could not interact with the stuff humans and our reality is made of.

And what has any of that to do with theology?

Religious beliefs are ultimately models of the universe. Just not good models. The idea that our universe was created by a supernatural god in 6 days about 6,000 years ago, as described in Genesis, is an example of such a model. While the existence of Biblegod cannot be falsified, certain claims made in Genesis can be tested against observations, and found wanting.


A universe in which God were made of particles, spooky or otherwise, would rather contradict the notion of an immaterial realm/power/force which seems to integral to most religious perspectives.

So what is this god made of?

The point Bilby and I were trying to make is that our current state of the knowledge (Standard Model of Physics) explicitly rules out any interventions by gods (supernatural forces). All interactions that are compatible with our reality have already been described, and no gods (supernatural interactions) have been found. Therefore, there is no way for a supernatural god to intervene in the affairs of humans.

Obviously, Christians do believe that God is at least occasionally made of particles - else, why the Eucharist - but not to be synonymous with them. At least, not in any version of the mythos that I have ever heard.

Exactly. God is material when it suits the Christians, supernatural when it doesn't.

So if any gods exist, they would not have the ability to interact with us.
If God is essentially immaterial, but immanent in the material, he or she or it is interacting with us whenever we interact with anything. Isn't that what immanence means?

You tell me. I am not proposing that God is a good model for our reality, but you appear to disagree, so feel free to explain how these interactions occur. You can't just wave your hands and say stuff; you have to back it up with facts and evidence. Facts and evidence that can be independently verified.

And another one addressed to you:
Politesse said:
Ah, so it is the "equations" that you believe have the power to govern. How do they do this?

I think we are having trouble communicating with each other. The equations are a model of reality. They can be used to predict or quantify how matter and energy interact, and explain various phenomena. The equations don't control nature; they are a description of nature, a set of man-made tools used by scientists to understand how nature behaves. Nature does what it does, and we try to understand what nature does using tools like the Standard Model.

Bilby provided a detailed explanation of how the Standard Model rules out godly interventions in an earlier post. There are plenty of websites that go into the details of the Standard Model. You can also read books on the subject. Or you can watch some of Sean Carroll's lectures on YouTube, dealing with a wide range of topics like time, cosmology, general relativity, particle physics. He does an excellent job of explaining complex concepts in terms that most ordinary people (non-physicists) can understand.

And yet again:
The Standard Model describes the complete set of all possible effects on particles between the low and high energy bounds mentioned earlier.

This description can be used to make extremely accurate predictions about how matter will behave; It also allows us to make predictions about what would occur if there were one or more unknown particles or forces that are not described by the model - we would see easily measurable differences between theory and observation, if these existed.

As a logical consequence of these facts, it is certain that nothing can affect matter at energies compatible with life, other than the known and easily detectable particles and forces described by the model.

We do not detect any such particles and forces influencing humans in ways compatible with theistic claims.

Supernatural effects on natural matter at survivable temperatures are impossible. Only natural influences have the ability to affect matter - electromagnetism, gravity, and the two nuclear forces. Prayer doesn't produce any changes in these, that are compatible with interaction with an unknown or supernatural 'realm'. Death, conception and birth don't either - any hypothetical 'soul' is therefore not interacting in any way with the body, and is indistinguishable from non-existent.

Any future theories must include the results and predictions that are successfully and accurately predicted by the Standard Model - in the same way that the accurate predictions of Newton's gravitational theory are also generated by relativity.

It's no more possible that souls or gods could interact with humans than it is possible that sometimes things you drop could fall sideways.

Gods and souls are as physically impossible as perpetual motion machines. Actually, perpetual motion machines are slightly less improbable - that is, our physics would need to be horribly wrong for either to be possible; But the number of badly wrong observations we rely upon in the case of perpetual motion is slightly smaller (though still astronomical).

It's even more reasonable to rule out gods on the basis that they are incompatible with what we know about reality, as it is to rule out flying pigs, moons made from dairy products, or sideways gravity.

Perhaps you should pay more attention when people take the time to explain stuff to you, so you don't keep repeating the same questions and making the same arguments over and over.
What I'm not seeing here is any concrete evidence. Bilby is claiming that all possible permutations of theism require God to be, essentially, a source of exotic particles of some sort not predicted by the standard model, yes? And furthermore, that the Standard model is absolutely true beyond any possibility of error?
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
Do they? How so?
This has been explained to you in an older thread. By Bilby, and later also by me. Do a search for "Standard Model" using Bilby's username and you should find multiple posts talking about this.
Telling me to search every post Bilby ever made on the subject is less effective than summarizing the evidence he presented, if any. The abstract presented here sounds purely speculative on the face of it, but if he provided something more substantive, it shoulsn't be difficult to recap.

Ok. Here are a few, and this one is a direct response to YOU:

Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been defined by the Standard Model of Physics. This does not mean that other particles do not exist, but that such particles would not interact with us at all, or so weakly so as to have no measurable effect.
I would have said, off the top of my head, that the Standard Model of Physics was defined by us, not the other way around. What exactly is it, and how does it define things, other than in the sense of being a useful mental model we use to describe the universe?

I don't understand what "other particles" is meant to refer to here. Other than what? And what ARE these other particles to which you refer, if they aren't the ones we usually encounter? And what has any of that to do with theology? A universe in which God were made of particles, spooky or otherwise, would rather contradict the notion of an immaterial realm/power/force which seems to integral to most religious perspectives. Obviously, Christians do believe that God is at least occasionally made of particles - else, why the Eucharist - but not to be synonymous with them. At least, not in any version of the mythos that I have ever heard.

So if any gods exist, they would not have the ability to interact with us.
If God is essentially immaterial, but immanent in the material, he or she or it is interacting with us whenever we interact with anything. Isn't that what immanence means?

The Standard Model describes all of the interactions that influence particles. The only unknowns in the model occur at very large scales, or at very high energies.

A human is composed of 'particles' and 'forces', both of which are precisely described by the mathematics of Quantum Field Theory. One of the requirements of the theory is the interchangeability of mass and energy, as described by Einstein's famous equation. This says that mass is energy, and vice-versa - so if you concentrate enough energy in one spot, any particles with a mass equal to, or lower than, that amount of energy will arise. The model lists all of the possible particles, and describes their properties - mass, half-life, decay products, etc.

As a result, we can thoroughly and accurately test the model by putting a lot of energy into one spot, surrounded by detectors, and looking at what particles are created, and their energies.

We can be completely confident that this process will generate examples of every particle and force that can exist within the range of energies of our experiments. If the theory is flawed, we will see results that differ from the predictions of theory - so if, for example, a force or particle not described by the Standard Model could possibly exist at the energies we have tested, then that would show up as a disagreement between theory and observation.

Using particle accelerators, we can look at some VERY large energies. We can also use astrophysical data to examine low energy interactions (such as gravity), that only become measurable at large scales.

This gives us an upper and lower bound, between which we can be confident that no interactions of any kind occur, apart from those described by the Standard Model. At this point in time, the low energy bound implies interactions are completely understood for all entities smaller than several light years across; and the high energy bound implies interactions are completely understood for all entities larger than sub-atomic particles.

For a hypothetical god to influence a human via an unknown force (or particle, or field), would require either that the human in question occupies several cubic light years of space; Or that he could withstand energies similar to those found in atomic explosions. Neither condition is compatible with life.

Of course, we could hypothesise a god that interacts with our reality only via the forces we already know about, in accordance with the Standard Model. But if we do so, our hypothesis predicts that those divine interventions will be easily detectable using simple scientific techniques. And we detect no such interventions.

Either a 'soul' is easy to detect; Or it is incapable of interaction of any kind with its owner; Or it is fictional. No other possibilities are compatible with modern physics, and none of these are compatible with any intervention by gods, nor with an afterlife, psychic powers, or a whole range of other mystical ideas.

Of course, it's possible that tbe Standard Model is wrong. But for it to be wrong enough to rescue theism and/or dualism would imply that none of our modern technologies are understood by their inventors or users. Everything we have invented since the industrial revolution would have to operate according to principles we have completely failed to understand, and our success would have to be down to stupendously good luck - luck on a level that would make winning every lottery ever
drawn seem like a trivial coincidence.

Theists are often very keen to point out that nothing in science is proven or certain. They are right - but some things are far more certain than others, and the likelihood that the Standard Model is wrong in a way that would render interactions between god and man a possibility, is considerably lower than the likelihood that the moon is made of green cheese, and we just got all our observations that should have shown that fact, wrong.

It's literally insane to accept both the Standard Model and the existence of a god that interacts with humans. Picking one of these two exclusive positions is necessary for a reasonable person; And picking the one that has been exhaustively tested and has passed every test, over the one that's based entirely on speculation, rumour and 'revelation', but has never been seen experimentally, is a no-brainer.

It's over. Atheism is correct, theism is wrong. The moon's not a dairy product, and there is neither a soul nor an afterlife outside fiction.

Fortunately for the world's religions, physics is hard, maths is hard, quantum physics is harder still, and most people don't take the time and effort to learn these things.

But not knowing quantum physics doesn't make it incorrect, or avoidable. Your computer works only because of the success of a theory that implies that gods are nonexistent. That remains true whether or not you (or anyone else) understands it. And this is not secret knowledge; Anyone who puts in the time and effort to learn the maths and physics involved is completely free to test it for themselves - and those who do are in a constant state of striving to show that the Standard Model is wrong, or inaccurate. Showing that it has even the tiniest flaw is sufficient to ensure a Nobel prize. Even at the high and low energy ends of the spectrum, where there's still room for debate and possibly surprising observations.

We have had the best minds in the world working for a century and more to try to find errors in this model. They publish everything for criticism by the entire body of their colleagues. Anyone who wants to have a crack is allowed to do so. None have succeeded.

Meanwhile, the god hypothesis relies on a bunch of contradictory anecdotes that are largely incapable of being tested or falsified. There's literally no reason to accept any theistic claim over other, competing theistic claims. No theist has ever leveraged their understanding to develop a new and effective technology or way of life. There are no prayer based computers, or GPS systems, or power plants, or transportation systems, or really anything demonstrably superior to their secular equivalents.

The Standard Model implies atheism. The "competition" between physics and religion to explain reality is like a match between Mohammed Ali at his prime, and an asthmatic octogenarian amputee with poor eyesight and a glass jaw.

Another one addressed to you:
Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been defined by the Standard Model of Physics. This does not mean that other particles do not exist, but that such particles would not interact with us at all, or so weakly so as to have no measurable effect.
I would have said, off the top of my head, that the Standard Model of Physics was defined by us, not the other way around. What exactly is it, and how does it define things, other than in the sense of being a useful mental model we use to describe the universe?

Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been described by the Standard Model of Physics. As the name implies, it is a model of reality created by us humans, and it includes:

1. All the particles known to man at the present time
2. A description of how these particles interact

Is that better?


I don't understand what "other particles" is meant to refer to here. Other than what?

Particles other than those known to man at the present time. Particles that have not yet been discovered by humans. For example, like the particles that might be associated with dark matter, as scientists speculate.

And what ARE these other particles to which you refer, if they aren't the ones we usually encounter?

There could be a whole collection of undiscovered particles out there. But we know that any such undiscovered particles could not interact with the stuff humans and our reality is made of.

And what has any of that to do with theology?

Religious beliefs are ultimately models of the universe. Just not good models. The idea that our universe was created by a supernatural god in 6 days about 6,000 years ago, as described in Genesis, is an example of such a model. While the existence of Biblegod cannot be falsified, certain claims made in Genesis can be tested against observations, and found wanting.


A universe in which God were made of particles, spooky or otherwise, would rather contradict the notion of an immaterial realm/power/force which seems to integral to most religious perspectives.

So what is this god made of?

The point Bilby and I were trying to make is that our current state of the knowledge (Standard Model of Physics) explicitly rules out any interventions by gods (supernatural forces). All interactions that are compatible with our reality have already been described, and no gods (supernatural interactions) have been found. Therefore, there is no way for a supernatural god to intervene in the affairs of humans.

Obviously, Christians do believe that God is at least occasionally made of particles - else, why the Eucharist - but not to be synonymous with them. At least, not in any version of the mythos that I have ever heard.

Exactly. God is material when it suits the Christians, supernatural when it doesn't.

So if any gods exist, they would not have the ability to interact with us.
If God is essentially immaterial, but immanent in the material, he or she or it is interacting with us whenever we interact with anything. Isn't that what immanence means?

You tell me. I am not proposing that God is a good model for our reality, but you appear to disagree, so feel free to explain how these interactions occur. You can't just wave your hands and say stuff; you have to back it up with facts and evidence. Facts and evidence that can be independently verified.

And another one addressed to you:
Politesse said:
Ah, so it is the "equations" that you believe have the power to govern. How do they do this?

I think we are having trouble communicating with each other. The equations are a model of reality. They can be used to predict or quantify how matter and energy interact, and explain various phenomena. The equations don't control nature; they are a description of nature, a set of man-made tools used by scientists to understand how nature behaves. Nature does what it does, and we try to understand what nature does using tools like the Standard Model.

Bilby provided a detailed explanation of how the Standard Model rules out godly interventions in an earlier post. There are plenty of websites that go into the details of the Standard Model. You can also read books on the subject. Or you can watch some of Sean Carroll's lectures on YouTube, dealing with a wide range of topics like time, cosmology, general relativity, particle physics. He does an excellent job of explaining complex concepts in terms that most ordinary people (non-physicists) can understand.

And yet again:
The Standard Model describes the complete set of all possible effects on particles between the low and high energy bounds mentioned earlier.

This description can be used to make extremely accurate predictions about how matter will behave; It also allows us to make predictions about what would occur if there were one or more unknown particles or forces that are not described by the model - we would see easily measurable differences between theory and observation, if these existed.

As a logical consequence of these facts, it is certain that nothing can affect matter at energies compatible with life, other than the known and easily detectable particles and forces described by the model.

We do not detect any such particles and forces influencing humans in ways compatible with theistic claims.

Supernatural effects on natural matter at survivable temperatures are impossible. Only natural influences have the ability to affect matter - electromagnetism, gravity, and the two nuclear forces. Prayer doesn't produce any changes in these, that are compatible with interaction with an unknown or supernatural 'realm'. Death, conception and birth don't either - any hypothetical 'soul' is therefore not interacting in any way with the body, and is indistinguishable from non-existent.

Any future theories must include the results and predictions that are successfully and accurately predicted by the Standard Model - in the same way that the accurate predictions of Newton's gravitational theory are also generated by relativity.

It's no more possible that souls or gods could interact with humans than it is possible that sometimes things you drop could fall sideways.

Gods and souls are as physically impossible as perpetual motion machines. Actually, perpetual motion machines are slightly less improbable - that is, our physics would need to be horribly wrong for either to be possible; But the number of badly wrong observations we rely upon in the case of perpetual motion is slightly smaller (though still astronomical).

It's even more reasonable to rule out gods on the basis that they are incompatible with what we know about reality, as it is to rule out flying pigs, moons made from dairy products, or sideways gravity.

Perhaps you should pay more attention when people take the time to explain stuff to you, so you don't keep repeating the same questions and making the same arguments over and over.
What I'm not seeing here is any concrete evidence. Bilby iw claiming that all possible permutations of theism require God to be, essentially, a source of exotic particles of some sort not predicted by the standard nodel, yes?
No.

Bilby is claiming that any god that interacts with humanity in any way would only be able to do so using one of the four known forces that are the only things that can possibly interact with humans.

And that therefore god's interactions with us would have been detected, easily.

When you look for something, knowing exactly what you are looking for and how to see it, and you never find it, then (if you are sane) you conclude that it's not there.
 
I always wondered why a wondrous god who gave a damn about human affairs wouldn’t flaunt his status.
Maybe (s)he does, to peers… :)
Perhaps more importantly, why would we speculate that an undetectable god might exist?

Obviously religiosity conferred a collective reproductive advantage for eons - and still does in parts of the world.
Supreme beings are quintessential to tribal bonds, and tribal bonds have long been vital to tribal survival.
I personally believe that religions have far outlived their utility for survival of humanity on a global scale, though they still seem effective on the tribal level or in situations of geographic isolation. I wonder what things are like on N Sentinel Island. I bet their god is a beaut.
 
Any one who believes that the universe was created by an intelligent deity needs to pay closer attention to the evening news.

Example: Any one who watches the murder channel (Investigation ID) knows that humans will murder each other for any reason and often for no reason.
 
Any one who believes that the universe was created by an intelligent deity needs to pay closer attention to the evening news.

Example: Any one who watches the murder channel (Investigation ID) knows that humans will murder each other for any reason and often for no reason.
The god works in mysterious ways. :thinking:
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
You are neglecting to look at the fact that, if the universe is an operation happening on a piece of "superphysical" hardware, with each particle served by one or more process cores once per frame of time, with messages dispatched to logically "adjacent" process cores, and all represented in their quantum numbers literally by some digital value...

It does not matter what forces and patterns of behavior and physics are operant within the behavior of the system.

To do something all the god has to do is change the numbers on the hardware by whatever means they have, entirely outside the normal rules of the executing process.

There is no rule in the physics of Dwarf Fortress, no visibility from within it's time dimension or possible interactions, that could cause my arrow flying through the air to hit something on the other side of a wall short of it not being a wall but a "fortification". To get around this, just tell the os from an entirely different non-dwarf-physics process to flip a bit on physical memory. Now without apparent, and entirely without physical cause (though retaining superphysical causality), the arrow is on the other side of the wall.

This is, in fact, one of the reasons I isolate "god" to "creator god" or at least to "not specifically bound as a player purely and solely extant in the simulation": only this class of entity gets a side channel past the requirements of physics.
Gods aren't said to merely be able to do these things though.

They are said to actually do them. And constantly. Every prayer, every death where a soul transfers to the afterlife, every miraculous intervention, would violate the rules - which is perfectly possible for your "god" to do - but which would leave all these unexplained events; A close look at reality would reveal stuff that doesn't conform with the rules as we understand them to be.

We looked; No such stuff occurs.

The god you describe might well be possible, but it's not any of the gods any of the world's religions have ever posited. And it wouldn't be undetectable; It's effects on reality would be inexplicable but not absent.
As I've pointed out, it doesn't matter what gods are said to do. What matters is evidence of what they actually do.

You are in addition making many assumptions about "the rules".

Gods in mythology are said to do things. Gods in the mythology of my world are said to do things, too. I learn a great deal of what they are said to do just watching the denizens build their statuary and carve their reliefs. Sadly, they don't really talk about historical events.

The thing is, generally they don't.

And let's be clear here we are not talking about "my god". Assuming I'm not "The God, capital G nice to meet you," and let's be clear I really hope I'm not because hoooooooo boy would I have some 'splainin to do... Well, I am personally the god I am talking about. I repeat I am not the god of this universe. Or at least I hope I'm not. It would be a really asshole thing to do to be a god of a whole universe that was any more complex in the thoughts of it's denizens than an ant farm.

I can point at a universe. I created it. It has physics, and denizens, those denizens have states and are hosted into a state machine, and as such make choices on the basis of their personality traits...

If there was complex enough agency code behind the denizens they may even be capable of learning, growing, and so on. They're not; they don't have to be for the sake of this discussion.

The point is, if they were more capable of it, I know that I most certainly would not be an obvious god. I mean history is littered with stories both real and made up and something between of something trying to reveal truth and getting killed for it.

I've written stories where a god spawns in and gets killed a few times for the trouble of being what it is. And let's be clear, when I do spawn in, into the world that I created, it is into the body of a freshly materialized sociopath that nobody questions the arrival of and I promptly wander off into the wilderness to find a shallow pool and pray I don't drown. If I survive that, it's on to mutilating horses, and then eating them when I get tired and hungry.

Then I go on an adventure, kill something big and scary and legendary and really easy to kill and then rob a civilization of priceless treasures it has produced across the span of some 40-60 years and with likely tens or hundreds of lives lost to madness and siege.

And the fact is, assuming we can't see gravity or other such waves caused by the appearance of person-sized masses here even as late as 30 years ago, it's as undetectable as it needs to be.

The bigger tell is seed manipulation, and we can't understand that... So, something just occurred to me.

There was an experiment done on a quantum replay where a particle was shoved back into a prior state comprised of it's original constituent particles following a probability wave collapse. When it destabilized again, it destabilized along the same collapse vector, if I recall properly.

It may be possible to detect such an event perhaps by seeing if it ever does, in fact, start resolving along a different trajectory? Perhaps set up similar switches elsewhere and even trilaterate such events?

It wouldn't test for all circumstances; if the resolution of the event is uncoupled from it's gravitational bindings, for example. It would be fascinating, regardless to see if there are such events as cause shifts in the probability wave collapse patterns of things.

But it's not like you could easily track down someone just materializing one day in the wilderness in 1200bce, mutilating some horses, and then fucking off to join an army. It wouldn't even track on the radar.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
You are neglecting to look at the fact that, if the universe is an operation happening on a piece of "superphysical" hardware, with each particle served by one or more process cores once per frame of time, with messages dispatched to logically "adjacent" process cores, and all represented in their quantum numbers literally by some digital value...

It does not matter what forces and patterns of behavior and physics are operant within the behavior of the system.

To do something all the god has to do is change the numbers on the hardware by whatever means they have, entirely outside the normal rules of the executing process.

There is no rule in the physics of Dwarf Fortress, no visibility from within it's time dimension or possible interactions, that could cause my arrow flying through the air to hit something on the other side of a wall short of it not being a wall but a "fortification". To get around this, just tell the os from an entirely different non-dwarf-physics process to flip a bit on physical memory. Now without apparent, and entirely without physical cause (though retaining superphysical causality), the arrow is on the other side of the wall.

This is, in fact, one of the reasons I isolate "god" to "creator god" or at least to "not specifically bound as a player purely and solely extant in the simulation": only this class of entity gets a side channel past the requirements of physics.
Gods aren't said to merely be able to do these things though.

They are said to actually do them. And constantly. Every prayer, every death where a soul transfers to the afterlife, every miraculous intervention, would violate the rules - which is perfectly possible for your "god" to do - but which would leave all these unexplained events; A close look at reality would reveal stuff that doesn't conform with the rules as we understand them to be.

We looked; No such stuff occurs.

The god you describe might well be possible, but it's not any of the gods any of the world's religions have ever posited. And it wouldn't be undetectable; It's effects on reality would be inexplicable but not absent.
As I've pointed out, it doesn't matter what gods are said to do. What matters is evidence of what they actually do.

You are in addition making many assumptions about "the rules".

Gods in mythology are said to do things. Gods in the mythology of my world are said to do things, too. I learn a great deal of what they are said to do just watching the denizens build their statuary and carve their reliefs. Sadly, they don't really talk about historical events.

The thing is, generally they don't.

And let's be clear here we are not talking about "my god". Assuming I'm not "The God, capital G nice to meet you," and let's be clear I really hope I'm not because hoooooooo boy would I have some 'splainin to do... Well, I am personally the god I am talking about. I repeat I am not the god of this universe. Or at least I hope I'm not. It would be a really asshole thing to do to be a god of a whole universe that was any more complex in the thoughts of it's denizens than an ant farm.

I can point at a universe. I created it. It has physics, and denizens, those denizens have states and are hosted into a state machine, and as such make choices on the basis of their personality traits...

If there was complex enough agency code behind the denizens they may even be capable of learning, growing, and so on. They're not; they don't have to be for the sake of this discussion.

The point is, if they were more capable of it, I know that I most certainly would not be an obvious god. I mean history is littered with stories both real and made up and something between of something trying to reveal truth and getting killed for it.

I've written stories where a god spawns in and gets killed a few times for the trouble of being what it is. And let's be clear, when I do spawn in, into the world that I created, it is into the body of a freshly materialized sociopath that nobody questions the arrival of and I promptly wander off into the wilderness to find a shallow pool and pray I don't drown. If I survive that, it's on to mutilating horses, and then eating them when I get tired and hungry.

Then I go on an adventure, kill something big and scary and legendary and really easy to kill and then rob a civilization of priceless treasures it has produced across the span of some 40-60 years and with likely tens or hundreds of lives lost to madness and siege.

And the fact is, assuming we can't see gravity or other such waves caused by the appearance of person-sized masses here even as late as 30 years ago, it's as undetectable as it needs to be.

The bigger tell is seed manipulation, and we can't understand that... So, something just occurred to me.

There was an experiment done on a quantum replay where a particle was shoved back into a prior state comprised of it's original constituent particles following a probability wave collapse. When it destabilized again, it destabilized along the same collapse vector, if I recall properly.

It may be possible to detect such an event perhaps by seeing if it ever does, in fact, start resolving along a different trajectory? Perhaps set up similar switches elsewhere and even trilaterate such events?

It wouldn't test for all circumstances; if the resolution of the event is uncoupled from it's gravitational bindings, for example. It would be fascinating, regardless to see if there are such events as cause shifts in the probability wave collapse patterns of things.

But it's not like you could easily track down someone just materializing one day in the wilderness in 1200bce, mutilating some horses, and then fucking off to join an army. It wouldn't even track on the radar.
Then it's a good thing for my position that gods, by definition, do stuff that people notice.

I am disinterested by the silly game of "Well, none of the gods invented so far exist, but I can invent one that nobody's ever believed in before that manages to squeeze through the gaps in your otherwise sound argument against theism".

Nor are theists interested, if they are being honest. Christians might like arguments such as yours, because they allow them to say "See! God is possible after all!", while ignoring the less pleasant fact that vast swathes of things in every version Christianity are demonstrably NOT possible.
 
What have feelings got to do with it? Agnosticism is a philosophy for people who think with their brains instewd of their heart and spleen. A hard path, but honest.
You are implying intellectual superiority and uniqueness. How convenient. We can discuss that when you stop beating your wife.
Agnosticism is the only honest stance for people who don't know. But there's a difference between not knowing because nobody knows, and not knowing because your education isn't sufficient.

The gulf between 'I do not know' and 'it is not known' is enormous and ever widening; It's not been possible for a single individual to know all of the things known to humankind since at least the Neolithic.

It IS known that no gods that intervene in Earthly or human events are possible. If Politesse doesn't know that, that's just a gap in their education. It's OK; We all have those.

If someone asks you what the capital of Burkina Faso is, it's perfectly reasonable to reply "I don't know".

It's NOT reasonable to reply "It is unknowable, and all honest people would admit that". Particularly when people are waving maps of Africa in your face, and you are ignoring them because you don't think mere geographers could possibly answer what you have ignorantly declared to be a purely philosophical question.

That the capital of Burkina Faso is not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows geography. That the existence of gods, ghosts, souls, and a whole bunch of other supernatural phenomena is also not an unknowable philosophical mystery is obvious to anyone who knows physics.

Agnosticism today is the art of ignoring people who tell you it's Ouagadougou, in order to preserve your self image as brave enough to declare all geographers to be pompous fools who claim to have forbidden and impossible knowledge.
I remain, as always, interested in any meaningful, coherent argument for atheism (not in the form of bluster). I have not made any argument against Burkina Faso's capital being Ougadougou. I am aware that a great many people believe as you do.

What is the claim, in fact, that would apply to atheism, but be rationally equivalent to "Ougadougou is the capital of Burkina Faso"? How would you state it, in form "x is the y of z"? What obvious, researchable empirical fact am I overlooking?
There cannot be any unknown forces that can act on matter at scales larger than an atomic nucleus, and smaller than a solar system.

The implications of this are unavoidable, when considered logically. They rule out the gods described by all of the popular religions of human history.
Do they? How so?
This has been explained to you in an older thread. By Bilby, and later also by me. Do a search for "Standard Model" using Bilby's username and you should find multiple posts talking about this.
Telling me to search every post Bilby ever made on the subject is less effective than summarizing the evidence he presented, if any. The abstract presented here sounds purely speculative on the face of it, but if he provided something more substantive, it shoulsn't be difficult to recap.

Ok. Here are a few, and this one is a direct response to YOU:

Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been defined by the Standard Model of Physics. This does not mean that other particles do not exist, but that such particles would not interact with us at all, or so weakly so as to have no measurable effect.
I would have said, off the top of my head, that the Standard Model of Physics was defined by us, not the other way around. What exactly is it, and how does it define things, other than in the sense of being a useful mental model we use to describe the universe?

I don't understand what "other particles" is meant to refer to here. Other than what? And what ARE these other particles to which you refer, if they aren't the ones we usually encounter? And what has any of that to do with theology? A universe in which God were made of particles, spooky or otherwise, would rather contradict the notion of an immaterial realm/power/force which seems to integral to most religious perspectives. Obviously, Christians do believe that God is at least occasionally made of particles - else, why the Eucharist - but not to be synonymous with them. At least, not in any version of the mythos that I have ever heard.

So if any gods exist, they would not have the ability to interact with us.
If God is essentially immaterial, but immanent in the material, he or she or it is interacting with us whenever we interact with anything. Isn't that what immanence means?

The Standard Model describes all of the interactions that influence particles. The only unknowns in the model occur at very large scales, or at very high energies.

A human is composed of 'particles' and 'forces', both of which are precisely described by the mathematics of Quantum Field Theory. One of the requirements of the theory is the interchangeability of mass and energy, as described by Einstein's famous equation. This says that mass is energy, and vice-versa - so if you concentrate enough energy in one spot, any particles with a mass equal to, or lower than, that amount of energy will arise. The model lists all of the possible particles, and describes their properties - mass, half-life, decay products, etc.

As a result, we can thoroughly and accurately test the model by putting a lot of energy into one spot, surrounded by detectors, and looking at what particles are created, and their energies.

We can be completely confident that this process will generate examples of every particle and force that can exist within the range of energies of our experiments. If the theory is flawed, we will see results that differ from the predictions of theory - so if, for example, a force or particle not described by the Standard Model could possibly exist at the energies we have tested, then that would show up as a disagreement between theory and observation.

Using particle accelerators, we can look at some VERY large energies. We can also use astrophysical data to examine low energy interactions (such as gravity), that only become measurable at large scales.

This gives us an upper and lower bound, between which we can be confident that no interactions of any kind occur, apart from those described by the Standard Model. At this point in time, the low energy bound implies interactions are completely understood for all entities smaller than several light years across; and the high energy bound implies interactions are completely understood for all entities larger than sub-atomic particles.

For a hypothetical god to influence a human via an unknown force (or particle, or field), would require either that the human in question occupies several cubic light years of space; Or that he could withstand energies similar to those found in atomic explosions. Neither condition is compatible with life.

Of course, we could hypothesise a god that interacts with our reality only via the forces we already know about, in accordance with the Standard Model. But if we do so, our hypothesis predicts that those divine interventions will be easily detectable using simple scientific techniques. And we detect no such interventions.

Either a 'soul' is easy to detect; Or it is incapable of interaction of any kind with its owner; Or it is fictional. No other possibilities are compatible with modern physics, and none of these are compatible with any intervention by gods, nor with an afterlife, psychic powers, or a whole range of other mystical ideas.

Of course, it's possible that tbe Standard Model is wrong. But for it to be wrong enough to rescue theism and/or dualism would imply that none of our modern technologies are understood by their inventors or users. Everything we have invented since the industrial revolution would have to operate according to principles we have completely failed to understand, and our success would have to be down to stupendously good luck - luck on a level that would make winning every lottery ever
drawn seem like a trivial coincidence.

Theists are often very keen to point out that nothing in science is proven or certain. They are right - but some things are far more certain than others, and the likelihood that the Standard Model is wrong in a way that would render interactions between god and man a possibility, is considerably lower than the likelihood that the moon is made of green cheese, and we just got all our observations that should have shown that fact, wrong.

It's literally insane to accept both the Standard Model and the existence of a god that interacts with humans. Picking one of these two exclusive positions is necessary for a reasonable person; And picking the one that has been exhaustively tested and has passed every test, over the one that's based entirely on speculation, rumour and 'revelation', but has never been seen experimentally, is a no-brainer.

It's over. Atheism is correct, theism is wrong. The moon's not a dairy product, and there is neither a soul nor an afterlife outside fiction.

Fortunately for the world's religions, physics is hard, maths is hard, quantum physics is harder still, and most people don't take the time and effort to learn these things.

But not knowing quantum physics doesn't make it incorrect, or avoidable. Your computer works only because of the success of a theory that implies that gods are nonexistent. That remains true whether or not you (or anyone else) understands it. And this is not secret knowledge; Anyone who puts in the time and effort to learn the maths and physics involved is completely free to test it for themselves - and those who do are in a constant state of striving to show that the Standard Model is wrong, or inaccurate. Showing that it has even the tiniest flaw is sufficient to ensure a Nobel prize. Even at the high and low energy ends of the spectrum, where there's still room for debate and possibly surprising observations.

We have had the best minds in the world working for a century and more to try to find errors in this model. They publish everything for criticism by the entire body of their colleagues. Anyone who wants to have a crack is allowed to do so. None have succeeded.

Meanwhile, the god hypothesis relies on a bunch of contradictory anecdotes that are largely incapable of being tested or falsified. There's literally no reason to accept any theistic claim over other, competing theistic claims. No theist has ever leveraged their understanding to develop a new and effective technology or way of life. There are no prayer based computers, or GPS systems, or power plants, or transportation systems, or really anything demonstrably superior to their secular equivalents.

The Standard Model implies atheism. The "competition" between physics and religion to explain reality is like a match between Mohammed Ali at his prime, and an asthmatic octogenarian amputee with poor eyesight and a glass jaw.

Another one addressed to you:
Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been defined by the Standard Model of Physics. This does not mean that other particles do not exist, but that such particles would not interact with us at all, or so weakly so as to have no measurable effect.
I would have said, off the top of my head, that the Standard Model of Physics was defined by us, not the other way around. What exactly is it, and how does it define things, other than in the sense of being a useful mental model we use to describe the universe?

Every particle that could conceivably interact with the matter/energy that makes up humans, and the immediate reality we inhabit, has been described by the Standard Model of Physics. As the name implies, it is a model of reality created by us humans, and it includes:

1. All the particles known to man at the present time
2. A description of how these particles interact

Is that better?


I don't understand what "other particles" is meant to refer to here. Other than what?

Particles other than those known to man at the present time. Particles that have not yet been discovered by humans. For example, like the particles that might be associated with dark matter, as scientists speculate.

And what ARE these other particles to which you refer, if they aren't the ones we usually encounter?

There could be a whole collection of undiscovered particles out there. But we know that any such undiscovered particles could not interact with the stuff humans and our reality is made of.

And what has any of that to do with theology?

Religious beliefs are ultimately models of the universe. Just not good models. The idea that our universe was created by a supernatural god in 6 days about 6,000 years ago, as described in Genesis, is an example of such a model. While the existence of Biblegod cannot be falsified, certain claims made in Genesis can be tested against observations, and found wanting.


A universe in which God were made of particles, spooky or otherwise, would rather contradict the notion of an immaterial realm/power/force which seems to integral to most religious perspectives.

So what is this god made of?

The point Bilby and I were trying to make is that our current state of the knowledge (Standard Model of Physics) explicitly rules out any interventions by gods (supernatural forces). All interactions that are compatible with our reality have already been described, and no gods (supernatural interactions) have been found. Therefore, there is no way for a supernatural god to intervene in the affairs of humans.

Obviously, Christians do believe that God is at least occasionally made of particles - else, why the Eucharist - but not to be synonymous with them. At least, not in any version of the mythos that I have ever heard.

Exactly. God is material when it suits the Christians, supernatural when it doesn't.

So if any gods exist, they would not have the ability to interact with us.
If God is essentially immaterial, but immanent in the material, he or she or it is interacting with us whenever we interact with anything. Isn't that what immanence means?

You tell me. I am not proposing that God is a good model for our reality, but you appear to disagree, so feel free to explain how these interactions occur. You can't just wave your hands and say stuff; you have to back it up with facts and evidence. Facts and evidence that can be independently verified.

And another one addressed to you:
Politesse said:
Ah, so it is the "equations" that you believe have the power to govern. How do they do this?

I think we are having trouble communicating with each other. The equations are a model of reality. They can be used to predict or quantify how matter and energy interact, and explain various phenomena. The equations don't control nature; they are a description of nature, a set of man-made tools used by scientists to understand how nature behaves. Nature does what it does, and we try to understand what nature does using tools like the Standard Model.

Bilby provided a detailed explanation of how the Standard Model rules out godly interventions in an earlier post. There are plenty of websites that go into the details of the Standard Model. You can also read books on the subject. Or you can watch some of Sean Carroll's lectures on YouTube, dealing with a wide range of topics like time, cosmology, general relativity, particle physics. He does an excellent job of explaining complex concepts in terms that most ordinary people (non-physicists) can understand.

And yet again:
The Standard Model describes the complete set of all possible effects on particles between the low and high energy bounds mentioned earlier.

This description can be used to make extremely accurate predictions about how matter will behave; It also allows us to make predictions about what would occur if there were one or more unknown particles or forces that are not described by the model - we would see easily measurable differences between theory and observation, if these existed.

As a logical consequence of these facts, it is certain that nothing can affect matter at energies compatible with life, other than the known and easily detectable particles and forces described by the model.

We do not detect any such particles and forces influencing humans in ways compatible with theistic claims.

Supernatural effects on natural matter at survivable temperatures are impossible. Only natural influences have the ability to affect matter - electromagnetism, gravity, and the two nuclear forces. Prayer doesn't produce any changes in these, that are compatible with interaction with an unknown or supernatural 'realm'. Death, conception and birth don't either - any hypothetical 'soul' is therefore not interacting in any way with the body, and is indistinguishable from non-existent.

Any future theories must include the results and predictions that are successfully and accurately predicted by the Standard Model - in the same way that the accurate predictions of Newton's gravitational theory are also generated by relativity.

It's no more possible that souls or gods could interact with humans than it is possible that sometimes things you drop could fall sideways.

Gods and souls are as physically impossible as perpetual motion machines. Actually, perpetual motion machines are slightly less improbable - that is, our physics would need to be horribly wrong for either to be possible; But the number of badly wrong observations we rely upon in the case of perpetual motion is slightly smaller (though still astronomical).

It's even more reasonable to rule out gods on the basis that they are incompatible with what we know about reality, as it is to rule out flying pigs, moons made from dairy products, or sideways gravity.

Perhaps you should pay more attention when people take the time to explain stuff to you, so you don't keep repeating the same questions and making the same arguments over and over.
What I'm not seeing here is any concrete evidence. Bilby is claiming that all possible permutations of theism require God to be, essentially, a source of exotic particles of some sort not predicted by the standard model, yes?
He is saying that

1. There are only a limited number of ways in which a god can intervene in human affairs. Four to be exact.
2. These four ways are fully documented and quantified by the Standard Model.
3. The Standard Model has been rigorously tested and demonstrated to be sound.
4. If there were gods intervening in human lives, these interactions would be easy to detect and study, since the methods of interaction are well understood.
5. Of the countless number of observations we have made of phenomena that affect human lives, we have zero observations of any phenomena that could be attributed to gods intervening in the lives of humans.

The proposition that Bilby and I are arguing is that it is grossly unreasonable to believe in gods that intervene in our lives, because all the evidence we have tells us that they don't.

And furthermore, that the Standard model is absolutely true beyond any possibility of error?
There is nothing we know with absolute certainty, and nobody has made that claim. Nor is absolute certainty the standard by which most people assess the reasonableness of truth claims.
 
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