Firearms and home invasion/defence, split from Rants

[Toni]

And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??

My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.

 

[skepticalbip]

And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??

My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.

Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker.

I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings.

I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind.

 

[Toni]

And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??

My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.

Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker.

I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings.

I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind.

I don’t disagree, honestly.

BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food.

Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon.

I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots.

Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently.

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.

 

[atrib]

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.

People in most countries don't have the right to legally own personal firearms like we do in the US.

If I hear someone breaking down my door at 2:00AM, I am going to assume they are not there to pay their respects or socialize with the family.

 

[Toni]

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.

People in most countries don't have the right to legally own personal firearms like we do in the US.

If I hear someone breaking down my door at 2:00AM, I am going to assume they are not there to pay their respects or socialize with the family.

I would make the same assumption--and would immediately call 911--and hide.

You are correct: most people in other countries do not have the right to own personal fire arms and they experience much, much less gun violence among the general population and at the hands of police.

 

[atrib]

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.

People in most countries don't have the right to legally own personal firearms like we do in the US.

If I hear someone breaking down my door at 2:00AM, I am going to assume they are not there to pay their respects or socialize with the family.

I would make the same assumption--and would immediately call 911--and hide.

You are correct: most people in other countries do not have the right to own personal fire arms and they experience much, much less gun violence among the general population and at the hands of police.

Hiding may be an option if you have a safe room that would be practically impossible to break into for the casual burglar. And depending on various factors like where you live and local police presence in your area, it may take the police tens of minutes to respond. A lot can happen in that time, and a $400 investment in a pump-action shotgun and shotgun shells, along with time at the range learning to use the weapon with a qualified instructor may be sufficient to keep you and your family safe. And with a shotgun you usually don't have to worry about projectiles passing through walls and hurting neighbors.

 

[skepticalbip]

And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??

My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.

Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker.

I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings.

I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind.

I don’t disagree, honestly.

BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food.

Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon.

I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots.

Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently.

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.

That may be true but you didn't complete the thought. What do you claim people in the U.S. or other countries do (or should do) when surprised by a home invasion? Reality is that many are beaten, raped, or killed.

According to a United States Department of Justice report, 38% of all assaults occur during a home invasion. I agree that only a very small percentage of the population have ever or will ever be in a situation where they are facing home invaders but it is a greater percentage of the population than the percentage killed in automobile accidents. Even though both happen to only a very small percentage of the population, I am careful both driving to avoid accidents and to insure that I have the means to defend against or repel a home invasion. I don't imagine that I am a ninja master that could overpower invaders or glib enough to convince them to walk away leaving me and my family unharmed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off.

 

[skepticalbip]

And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off.

You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one. Only in Hollywood movies should someone with the weapon allow an attacker to get close enough to take it from them. Maintaining a distance and being prepared to use the weapon if necessary works in the military and in a home.

 

[Toni]

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.

People in most countries don't have the right to legally own personal firearms like we do in the US.

If I hear someone breaking down my door at 2:00AM, I am going to assume they are not there to pay their respects or socialize with the family.

I would make the same assumption--and would immediately call 911--and hide.

You are correct: most people in other countries do not have the right to own personal fire arms and they experience much, much less gun violence among the general population and at the hands of police.

Hiding may be an option if you have a safe room that would be practically impossible to break into for the casual burglar. And depending on various factors like where you live and local police presence in your area, it may take the police tens of minutes to respond. A lot can happen in that time, and a $400 investment in a pump-action shotgun and shotgun shells, along with time at the range learning to use the weapon with a qualified instructor may be sufficient to keep you and your family safe. And with a shotgun you usually don't have to worry about projectiles passing through walls and hurting neighbors.

It depends, I suppose, on your tolerance for risk. I live in a neighborhood that is low risk for break ins. It's a small enough place that police would be able to respond quickly. I don't keep much in the way of valuables in the house and would not trade anything I own for my life --or for someone else's. I feel...perhaps overconfident....that I could manage a break in. I also feel pretty confident that I would not handle it very well if I were to shoot someone. And much worse if my weapon were taken from me by an attacker or if I accidentally hurt someone I did not intend to hurt. Or kill, really. I was taught that you only shoot to kill. I quit hunting with my dad because I didn't want to kill squirrels, although I helped him dress squirrels he shot as well as rabbits and other game and ate them all, with relish. I've been with people I loved when they died. I've been with animals I loved when they died. I've made decisions that helped to shorten the life of someone--more than one someone-- I loved because I loved them. If I need to, I will do that again. I hope I don't have to do that but I would. Hell, if it were necessary, I'd take up hunting if I needed to to keep me and mine alive. I've sacrificed research animals in the name of science. Some, by cervical dislocation.

I've seen enough death.

I am actively, knowingly choosing not to have a firearm in my home or on my person. I know from very close experience that a weapon can be taken away from you and used against you or someone you love. A weapon can be stolen and used to kill someone. A weapon can be used to kill a child.

On average, one child in the US is shot--not every day but every hour of every day. https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/interactive/2022/kids-shot-killed-2021-gun-violence-record/

I would rather take my chances than contribute to that horrible, unforgiveable statistic.

Other countries seem to manage to keep their citizens safe without arming everybody to the teeth. There is not the epidemic of school shootings in other countries as there is here in the US. There are no shootings at malls or movie theaters or concerts. There is no little girl or boy shot dead in their bed at night or while they're doing their homework at the kitchen table.

Only here.

 

[Toni]

And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off.

You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one. Only in Hollywood movies should someone with the weapon allow an attacker to get close enough to take it from them. Maintaining a distance and being prepared to use the weapon if necessary works in the military and in a home.

My uncle was in his kitchen in his farm house in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of nowhere when someone did, in fact, break into his house, and use his own gun against him. It was no movie and the fall out was not out of Hollywood. It took him a long time to recover from that --and he wasn't shot.

 

[skepticalbip]

And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off.

You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one. Only in Hollywood movies should someone with the weapon allow an attacker to get close enough to take it from them. Maintaining a distance and being prepared to use the weapon if necessary works in the military and in a home.

My uncle was in his kitchen in his farm house in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of nowhere when someone did, in fact, break into his house, and use his own gun against him. It was no movie and the fall out was not out of Hollywood. It took him a long time to recover from that --and he wasn't shot.

You skipped the opening, "You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one." He was not prepared to use the weapon to protect his family. Your uncle and his family was lucky that his invader didn't have more malicious intent. I prefer to not depend on luck.

 

[atrib]

I am actively, knowingly choosing not to have a firearm in my home or on my person.

I understand and respect that. I am not advocating for every person to go out and buy firearms. And I am against people owning firearms if they are not willing to take on the responsibility that accompanies this right.

 

[Tharmas]

Some interesting statistics about gun ownership in the USA, from this source (Pubmed):

For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

 

[Toni]

And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??

My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.

Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker.

I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings.

I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind.

I don’t disagree, honestly.

BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food.

Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon.

I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots.

Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently.

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.

That may be true but you didn't complete the thought. What do you claim people in the U.S. or other countries do (or should do) when surprised by a home invasion? Reality is that many are beaten, raped, or killed.

According to a United States Department of Justice report, 38% of all assaults occur during a home invasion. I agree that only a very small percentage of the population have ever or will ever be in a situation where they are facing home invaders but it is a greater percentage of the population than the percentage killed in automobile accidents. Even though both happen to only a very small percentage of the population, I am careful both driving to avoid accidents and to insure that I have the means to defend against or repel a home invasion. I don't imagine that I am a ninja master that could overpower invaders or glib enough to convince them to walk away leaving me and my family unharmed.

So far, I've done pretty well fending off would be rapists. None were in my actual home, but definitely in places where I felt I was perfectly safe-the homes of close friends and relatives. Which is extremely common. Almost all rapes victims know their attacker. I knew mine.

In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents.

In 2020, there were a total of

Some interesting statistics about gun ownership in the USA, from this source (Pubmed):

For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

Excellent point.

 

[Toni]

And home security isn't the same as walking into a guy that might want to attack you in a tight confined area and one decides to draw a gun as a measure of presumed defense, which only works if the attacker doesn't go for it. Presenting a gun into a situation only works as deterrence if the other person backs off.

You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one. Only in Hollywood movies should someone with the weapon allow an attacker to get close enough to take it from them. Maintaining a distance and being prepared to use the weapon if necessary works in the military and in a home.

My uncle was in his kitchen in his farm house in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle of nowhere when someone did, in fact, break into his house, and use his own gun against him. It was no movie and the fall out was not out of Hollywood. It took him a long time to recover from that --and he wasn't shot.

You skipped the opening, "You are right that anyone who is not prepared to use a weapon, if necessary, should not have one." He was not prepared to use the weapon to protect his family. Your uncle was lucky that his invader didn't have more malicious intent. I prefer to not depend on luck.

He absolutely was prepared to use his weapon to defend himself and his family. He reached for a gun and was shot at by one of the invaders. If my uncle had reached his gun first, I doubt he would have missed.

He was a farmer and did not go about his work with a gun strapped to him as though he was in a Louis L'Amour novel or a cowboy movie.

 

[skepticalbip]

And this is so common? Crazy people deciding to kill you on the streets, using a concealed knife?

It’s a lot more common for there to be people like the McMasters family or Zimmerman, deciding that someone is a threat because??

Or people making a mistake and think they are shooting a deer only it’s a horse carrying a young girl.

I’ve dealt with my share of actual crazy people ( amateur diagnosis but …) one of whom was attacking someone else (no weapons but not a sure bet that he wasn’t armed—he was definitely crazy and hopped up on something). That’s not even counting the so called normal guys who were attacking girls/young women, sometimes me. That sort of thing is extremely common. Extremely. It’s not that often women decide to pull out guns to kill would be rapists.

What’s way too common is not the crazy guy with a 4 inch blade but the ‘perfectly normal’ crazies who walk around with guns and use them in crowds.

Did you miss the fact that the guy has already used potentially lethal force against an employee??

My uncle, who grew up hunting, and was a very good marksman (as was my father and my grandfather) and who served in WWII and so was extremely proficient with firearms was robbed in his own farmhouse. The thieves shot at him with his own gun, narrowly missing him and my aunt. My uncle was the only person I've known that I would say was perhaps tougher than my father--but then, I didn't know my grandfather until he was an old man. I understand he was something else. So, my uncle, who was in his mid 40's at the time, extremely strong and fit, extremely proficient with firearms was disarmed and nearly killed with his own firearms in his own house in his own kitchen. I am just not that sanguine about most people's ability to defend themselves with a gun, not to mention hitting only their target and not some innocent bystander or to be disarmed and have their own weapon used against them.

Things that I have defended myself against, without any weapon at all: Several attempted rapes and varying degrees of sexual assault. Twice, I threw a guy who was easily twice my size (under 100 lbs, under 5'2) over my head. Don't ask me how but I did it. I do not know martial arts. Another time, a guy who thought I was...what is now referred to, I think, as 'cock-blocking' him with regards to a friend who was extremely not interested in him decided to teach me a lesson by wrapping his bike lock/chain around my neck and pulling it very, very tight. I stopped someone from assaulting my then boyfriend. I stopped a long line of guys who were about to take turns on one of my friends who was quite drunk/ nearly passed out on a bed. No weapons used, except for that bicycle chain/lock.

My father talked a much larger drunken neighbor who was armed out of assaulting another neighbor who was actually in the bathtub at the time. The drunken neighbor was on a rampage looking for his wife (who had escaped in another neighbor's car) thought his wife was being hidden by the neighbor in the tub. Her husband drove truck and was on the road and she was alone with two toddlers. The drunk even tossed my dad his wallet when the cops came to take him away.

My grandparents were held up at gunpoint on their farm in the mid-60's.

Other relatives were victims of an armed home invasion with one being held at knife point for hours while the other was forced to drive to where the thief thought he could cash a check. They were rescued by SWAT teams and no one was hurt. No shots fired.

My son's girlfriend thwarted an armed attempt at carjacking her car. Their neighbors were victims of a car jacking (different neighborhood).

None of these are experiences that I or anyone else involved would like to go through again. We were all lucky that no one got hurt---including the attackers.

A couple of my cousins served in Viet Nam, one as a sniper. I will NEVER forget the look on his face when, at his homecoming party, my jerk of an uncle (different side of the family than the other one) asked how many he had killed. He went paler than pale, even for a white boy. It is no joke to shoot someone. No joke at all. We do not live in a cowboy movie or a Liam Neeson or Denzel Washington movie.

I grew up in the home of someone who was an excellent hunter, as were my uncle and grandfather, marksmen all. It was impressed upon me very, very, very strongly that one NEVER pointed a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER shot for any reason except to kill (or at a practice target). The angriest I ever saw my father was the time I wanted to try out the new scope on his rifle and drew a bead on my sister. He and I had just cleaned that rifle and two others: we knew it was empty. But he made it extremely clear to me that even though I knew and he knew that the gun was loaded, we could have been wrong and it was NEVER ok to point a gun at anything you didn't intend to shoot and you NEVER EVER pointed a gun at a person. It still makes me shiver to remember his voice. And I don't blame him. I was being a thoughtless asshole show off and it was very dangerous.

I do understand that some people feel differently than I do and feel the need to be armed in order to protect themselves.

Interesting but just because you or anyone in your family were never seriously injured or killed in an attack or home invasion does not mean that many, many people are not as lucky. Some people would rather rely on preparedness than luck or the kindness of the attacker.

I worked my way through college so, with only a low wage job as income, the combination of tuition, lab fees, books, etc. there was little left over for food and housing. This meant that I could only afford an apartment in a rather seedy section of town. I thwarted two home invasions during that time by simply having a pump action shotgun available. One of them, three thugs actually busted down the door to gain entrance. The other was only one goon climbing in the window. Just the sound of my pumping a round into the chamber was enough to make them flee so no shooting was necessary. Maybe you can imagine that they were only breaking in to say hi but I think it more likely that they were capable of much more than warm greetings.

I could be mistaken but I figure that anyone that is breaking into an occupied home does not have the best interest of the occupants in mind.

I don’t disagree, honestly.

BTW, I couldn’t afford a gun. I really could barely afford food.

Most of the women you know have had to fend off at least one sexual assault. It is likely that at least one woman you know wasn’t successful in fighting off an attacker —or weighted her options and decided not to fight. Relatively few women fight off/scare off attackers using a weapon.

I wouldn’t say it was ‘luck’ that people managed to get out of terrible situations without injury—except my uncle. It was just luck that those idiots were poor shots.

Some of it was having the right reflexes. My dad did have a presence about him that conveyed Do not even think about fucking with me—except no one would have dared use the word fuck. Or to have even thought about fucking with him. My family members were both brace and smart in managing to alert authorities to their situation so that they could be rescued. The SWAT team did not have to fire a shot. As for me? I had the elements of surprise and fury/adrenaline on my side. If anyone had been armed, I’m sure things would have turned out differently.

But: I don’t think that people in the US are any worse than people in other countries and yet in other countries, people’s first reaction is not to grab a gun if they hear noises in the night.

That may be true but you didn't complete the thought. What do you claim people in the U.S. or other countries do (or should do) when surprised by a home invasion? Reality is that many are beaten, raped, or killed.

According to a United States Department of Justice report, 38% of all assaults occur during a home invasion. I agree that only a very small percentage of the population have ever or will ever be in a situation where they are facing home invaders but it is a greater percentage of the population than the percentage killed in automobile accidents. Even though both happen to only a very small percentage of the population, I am careful both driving to avoid accidents and to insure that I have the means to defend against or repel a home invasion. I don't imagine that I am a ninja master that could overpower invaders or glib enough to convince them to walk away leaving me and my family unharmed.

So far, I've done pretty well fending off would be rapists. None were in my actual home, but definitely in places where I felt I was perfectly safe-the homes of close friends and relatives. Which is extremely common. Almost all rapes victims know their attacker. I knew mine.

I don't know how that applies to the topic. True sociopaths that break into your home are not likely to be anything like your friends and/or acquaintances that you would go to parties with.

In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents

That sounds about right. And then the average number of home invasions per year was 1,030,000 between 1994 and 2010. As I said both effected a small percentage of the population. But both are something that we should try to prevent happening to us.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents

That sounds about right. And then the average number of home invasions per year was 1,030,000 between 1994 and 2010. As I said both effected a small percentage of the population. But both are something that we should try to prevent happening to us.

Technically if your house is invaded, and you have a firearm... you haven't prevented the house from being invaded.

 

[skepticalbip]

In 2020, there were 38,680 deaths from automobile/traffic accidents

That sounds about right. And then the average number of home invasions per year was 1,030,000 between 1994 and 2010. As I said both effected a small percentage of the population. But both are something that we should try to prevent happening to us.

Technically if your house is invaded, and you have a firearm... you haven't prevented the house from being invaded.

That is true. But like having taken the Coved vaccine does not prevent me being infected, repelling home invaders prevents a more serious outcome.

 

[Angry Floof]

This guy has been arrested... a lot. Clearly seems to have mental health complications... and there seems that there is little to be done to keep him from assaulting someone at our office if he comes back during the day. Generally, he has been a weekend guy. We aren't certain why he keeps coming to our place. We don't have much of value in our office... and he has yet to steal that flat panel tv that has been sitting in our office for a few years now. But we have reached a point where we feel, there isn't much we can do to protect our workers, other than hope we don't cross paths.

This is the sort of situation that makes people carry concealed firearms.

This is the sort of response that makes the rest of the world think that Americans are fucking insane.

What kind of person looks at that scenario and thinks "if only it were easier to rapidly escalate any confrontation so as to kill the mentally ill person, the situation would be so much better"?

Not only that, but in the US, access to firearms is the main point of conflict, so it's also, "If only it were easier for any moron or disgruntled employee or whatever to get automatic weapons with zero tracking or oversight so as to kill whoever they imagine have wronged them, the situation would be so much better."