Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada

[Angra Mainyu]

On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.

I thought they burned the church because bodies were actually found. I think the better thing to say is maybe they should have waited to see if said graves may have been normal and not proof of wrongdoing (beyond the forfeiture of children for the purpose of indoctrination because you're an outsider) on the schools part though it may still sound like a dumb and out-of-touch thing to say either way.

They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime. I seriously doubt we will find that the bodies were mistreated physically, tortured or something like that.

They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime.

The remains are reminder of that crime. Whether the remains are found or not is immaterial to the real crime.

Okay, so it is not a good idea to make accusations of other crimes, when the evidence is weak.

 

[Jarhyn]

On the other hand, it seems like the church burners could have at least waited until actual skeletons were being hauled out of the ground before starting their fires. Its the polite thing to do.

I thought they burned the church because bodies were actually found. I think the better thing to say is maybe they should have waited to see if said graves may have been normal and not proof of wrongdoing (beyond the forfeiture of children for the purpose of indoctrination because you're an outsider) on the schools part though it may still sound like a dumb and out-of-touch thing to say either way.

They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime. I seriously doubt we will find that the bodies were mistreated physically, tortured or something like that.

They were separated from their families, lands and culture. That's the crime.

The remains are reminder of that crime. Whether the remains are found or not is immaterial to the real crime.

Okay, so it is not a good idea to make accusations of other crimes, when the evidence is weak.

The evidence is

‘We knew it was there’: Former B.C. chief says unmarked graves near Cranbrook need more context | Globalnews.ca

The remains were found when remedial work was being performed in the area to replace the fence at the cemetery near the former residential school last year.

globalnews.ca

we knew it was there... shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

Doesn't seem weak to me, given that everyone knew it was there, to the point where it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone

 

[Bullmoose Too]

The graves should be exhumed and any corpses found should be put under forensic investigation.

 

[barbos]

The graves should be exhumed and any corpses found should be put under forensic investigation.

Not before Ottawa is bombed.

 

[Toni]

I'm not familiar with Canadian laws regarding the recovery of remains, the excavation of suspected mass graves, or any similar laws, rules and regulations, or how much they differ between provinces or whether there is national law and what takes precedence. I am not aware of what the custom, what religious rites, what circumstances the various tribes and bands of First Nations people in Canada have with regards to disturbing remains of their people. I am ignorant of what the implications are concerning the overlap and conflict between such laws and the customs, rites and laws of the various legal entities involved. I imagine it's all very complex. I am fairly certain that at least some of us have had the experience of needing to wait for various local municipalities and governing boards to conduct their studies, examine the various laws and regulations to know that these are very complex issues that do not simply get resolved on the timeline of conservative media and their readers.

Even if it were not currently winter in Canada with a frost line that is deep enough to make any excavation fairly ambitious or even impossible. Even if there were not a pandemic.

Does anyone care that the founder of The Federalist is the husband of Megan McCain? Or that The Federalist's rating for journalistic fairness and bias has moved in recent years from Leans Right to Far Right?

Is it possible that there are issues involved that none of us is sufficiently familiar with to comment with any sort of expertise?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

We have been reading articles about Tulsa lately and the 1921 riot in which hundreds of blacks were murdered. Those graves have not been unearthed yet either. Must be fake news too.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Doesn't seem weak to me, given that everyone knew it was there, to the point where it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone

Did you read the article you linked to?

Look at your link: the person who says they knew it was a graveyard, also says the graves were unmarked because the markings were wooden crosses that deteriorated over time and were removed or burned eventually.
Assuming that she is correct about the above (and if she's not, the evidence of her testimony is indeed very weak), what was the crime here? It does not look like a cover-up of mass-murder. Look at what she says:

According to Pierre, wooden crosses that originally marked the gravesites had been burned or deteriorated over the years. Using a wooden marker at a gravesite remains a practice that continues to this day in many Indigenous communities across Canada.

So, some graves are unmarked in a cemetery because wooden crosses deteriorated over time and/or were removed. That's not at all evidence of the sort of crime the accusations in re. Kamloops were about. On that note, she says:

However, she said the findings at the cemetery near Cranbrook isn’t the same as the other findings at other residential schools throughout the country.

“What happened in these other places is these remains have been found not in graveyards, that’s the big difference,” Pierre said. “It’s horrible.”

So, you'd have to look at the evidence of the other sites, not the one you linked to.

 

[Jarhyn]

“What happened in these other places is these remains have been found not in graveyards, that’s the big difference,” Pierre said. “It’s horrible.”

...the evidence of the other sites

I'm just going to point out here that this is AM arguing that the OP title is misleading.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

“What happened in these other places is these remains have been found not in graveyards, that’s the big difference,” Pierre said. “It’s horrible.”

...the evidence of the other sites

I'm just going to point out here that this is AM arguing that the OP title is misleading.

I'm going to point out that you are making a false statement about what I am doing, though I do not know whether you realize that. I am saying that the person you cited as providing evidence in the site in question, was not doing so. And yes, she said that what happened in other places - unmarked graves not in graveyards - was horrible. In fact, the same article goes on to say

Hundreds of unmarked graves, many believed to be children, have been found near residential school sites across the country recently, including in Kamloops, B.C., and the Cowessess First Nation in Saskatchewan.

However, they got the Kamloops case wrong: there is some evidence of unmarked graves; there is no conclusive evidence of them, so that they can claim they were "found". And what about the other sites, not in cemeteries? I don't know. I have not seen any good evidence. But you are following the case, right? So, do you have strong evidence from any of them? If so, please post a link.

 

[Jarhyn]

“What happened in these other places is these remains have been found not in graveyards, that’s the big difference,” Pierre said. “It’s horrible.”

...the evidence of the other sites

I'm just going to point out here that this is AM arguing that the OP title is misleading.

I'm going to point out that you are making a false statement about what I am doing, though I do not know whether you realize that. I am saying that the person you cited as providing evidence <unnecessary qualifier>, was not doing so. And yes, she said that what happened in other places - unmarked graves not in graveyards - was horrible. In fact, the same article goes on to say

Hundreds of unmarked graves, many believed to be children, have been found near residential school sites across the country recently, including in Kamloops, B.C., and the Cowessess First Nation in Saskatchewan.

...there is some evidence of unmarked graves...; <No-true-scotsman>. And what about the other sites, not in cemeteries? I don't know. <Argument from Incredulity/Ignorance>.

Of course, you want to downplay the fact that there are bodies buried in the obvious graves to which as you mention, there is evidence.

The op title is misleading:

There is some evidence of unmarked graves, and the only reason we have "not found bodies" that way is because none have been looked for that way.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Of course, you want to downplay the fact that there are bodies buried in the obvious graves to which as you mention, there is evidence.

No, I do not want to downplay anything. That there are bodies in graves that were in a cemetery and were marked but the markings have degraded/been removed much later is not a significant piece of evidence of the sort of crimes the accusations are about - murder, mass murder, cover-up of murder, cover-up of mass murder, etc.

The op title is misleading:

First, plenty of op titles are misleading. This one is a bit on the line between misleading and not so. I don't think it's suggested they weren't found after digging, but it increases the probability of error compared to some other alternatives. There are much more misleading ones that are allowed, no problema.

Second, some of your claims in this thread are much more than misleading: they're unwarranted and just false, and that includes accusations against others.

There is some evidence of unmarked graves, and the only reason we have "not found bodies" that way is because none have been looked for that way.

First, there is some evidence of unmarked graves, that is true. There is no conclusive evidence of unmarked graves in large numbers that would establish any of the above crimes. Note that the accusations of crimes based on them are accusations based on evidence that is not conclusive (not even close).

Second, your claim that "the only reason" that "we have "not found bodies" that way is because none have been looked for that way" is...misleading, to the extent that the OP title is at least. It clearly suggests the bodies would have been found if searched for - in fact, it suggests this in a much more direct manner than the OP might be suggested the excavations were conducted, as you say it's the "only" way.

 

[Jarhyn]

Hundreds of unmarked graves, many believed to be children, have been found near residential school sites across the country recently, including in Kamloops, B.C., and the Cowessess First Nation in Saskatchewan.

So, this is some very strong language, coming through someone who probably knows quite a bit more about the evidence, seeing as it's their job to do such archeological research. It...

clearly suggests the bodies would have been found if searched for

Bodies have not been searched for this way, and everyone actually involved is pretty damn sure they are down there. Which makes me wonder why some people are so involved in trying to ignore that there are pretty obviously bodies down there.

At any rate, the evils of these places has been documented. There's nothing here that's going to surprise anyone but the extent of the abuse.

The fact that these are the graves of children is exactly the proof something fucked up and evil happened.

No school should need a graveyard.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

So, this is some very strong language, coming through someone who probably knows quite a bit more about the evidence, seeing as it's their job to do such archeological research. It...

First, you misread. That was not an assertion by Sophie Pierre. It was an assertion by the Adam MacVicar, the person who wrote the article.

Second, there is no good evidence that Sophie Pierre has any expertise, or has ever done archeological research.

Third, there is the evidence of the failure of the radar interpretation in the other case (the one I linked to earlier).

Bodies have not been searched for this way, and everyone actually involved is pretty damn sure they are down there. Which makes me wonder why some people are so involved in trying to ignore that there are pretty obviously bodies down there.

First, in some cases, they are pretty sure because they have found corroborating evidence, for example that the tombstones were removed, church records, etc.

Second, in a case I linked to, everyone actually involved seemed to be pretty sure and there was nothing.

Third, of course there are bodies in cemeteries. Of course some of the graves are unmarked, because the markings deteriorated/were removed. What I do not see is conclusive evidence of mass murder, or any massive cover-up of murder, or any murders committed by the people accused of them.

And of course there are some unmarked graves, because that's a safe bet pretty much everywhere (someone surely murdered someone somewhere and buried the body), given enough time a century. But what I do not see is conclusive evidence of mass murder, or any massive cover-up of murder, or any murders committed by the people accused of them.

At any rate, the evils of these places has been documented. There's nothing here that's going to surprise anyone but the extent of the abuse.

Yes, the very purpose of them was evil. But there are different degrees of evil. Not all wrongful behavior is equally wrongful.

The fact that these are the graves of children is exactly the proof something fucked up and evil happened.

What, exactly? Murder? Mass murder? Cover ups? Could you make a more specific argument as to how it's evidence.

No school should need a graveyard.

The graveyard was not the school's graveyard. It was the local graveyard. But some children (from the school or not) died and were buried there. Because sometimes children died. And they did so much more often when there were no vaccines.

 

[Metaphor]

Does anyone care that the founder of The Federalist is the husband of Megan McCain? Or that The Federalist's rating for journalistic fairness and bias has moved in recent years from Leans Right to Far Right?

You, evidently, care.

Are you proposing they have said something false in the OP article?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The fact that they are child bodies and not grownass adult bodies is the evidence they were mistreated physically, tortured, or something like that.

But here this thread is proclaiming Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada.

Back then there were still a lot of deaths from childhood diseases. Child bodies do not prove wrongdoing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How were they separated from their families? They were kept at the school and not allowed to leave? The nuns might have been mean, fitting stereotype, but this is all a bunch of nothing.

You need to pay more attention to history. Yes, they were taken from their parents and kept at the school. Like your hero did with kids at the border.

 

[Jarhyn]

The fact that they are child bodies and not grownass adult bodies is the evidence they were mistreated physically, tortured, or something like that.

But here this thread is proclaiming Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada.

Back then there were still a lot of deaths from childhood diseases. Child bodies do not prove wrongdoing.

Excepting that there are a lot of child corpses at these schools and no child corpses (or few, and all well documented) elsewhere. I'm sorry but no, child corpses buried at schools evidence wrongdoing whether it is neglect, or malnutrition, or just straight up murder, and this is compounded by the fact that the bodies were not returned to the families nor were the records released by the church.

 

[laughing dog]

The fact that they are child bodies and not grownass adult bodies is the evidence they were mistreated physically, tortured, or something like that.

But here this thread is proclaiming Not One Corpse Has Been Found In The ‘Mass Grave’ Of Indigenous Children In Canada.

Back then there were still a lot of deaths from childhood diseases. Child bodies do not prove wrongdoing.

Only if one ignores the lack of record-keeping, and the lack of notification of the families.

 

[Toni]

Does anyone care that the founder of The Federalist is the husband of Megan McCain? Or that The Federalist's rating for journalistic fairness and bias has moved in recent years from Leans Right to Far Right?

You, evidently, care.

Are you proposing they have said something false in the OP article?

I'm suggesting that there is a strong slant to most of what they write. If I, off the top of my head, can think of numerous reasons why there has been no excavation to date, I'm certain that seasoned journalists could think about it and investigate whether there are reasons of law, custom, bureacracy, delays due to pandemic and weather that would cause there to be delays in excavation of purported mass grave sites. Nothing like that was included in the article linked. Why?

 

[Elixir]

Nothing like that was included in the article linked. Why?

Prolly b'cuz when right wingers want to know about buried bodies they just call on their personal freedum, grab a shovel and start digging.
Then they look around and wonder what kind of bad stuff those lib'ruls are up to that's keeping them from wanting to help out.